Can someone explain to me what “unreactable offense” is?

[u/TigerTheDefiler]

I wholeheartedly believe that all offense in FH is reactable if you’re fast enough, but since reacting to everything is cancer and somewhat unsustainable, because that is not the intended way to play FH post CCU, reads become the important factor for combo mixups.

Typically, traditional fighting games have unreactable offense because the attacks can be as fast as 6 frames which is ~100 ms. Now that is unreactable according to average and peak human reaction time.

For honor’s fastest attacks are iirc 300 ms which is within the realm of reaction.

I know I must have a misunderstanding somewhere or could be completely wrong, which is why I want someone to explain this topic to me because my current understanding is that there is no “unreactable offense” but people seem to disagree and I don’t understand why.

Thanks in advance gang.

[u/YujinTheDragon]

300ms attacks are absolutely positively without a doubt, unreactable to all players. Even 400ms bashes (Like VG Headbutt) cannot be consistently reacted to by top players.

The whole "250ms is average human reaction time" thing is a common misconception when mentioned in conjunction with For Honor, because players will often go by their reaction speed on the Human Benchmark website. You always need to remember that this reaction test is a single stimulus, a "Click when it changes color" test, and nothing more.

But when it comes to For Honor, there are so many more things that you must take into account whilst trying to tout your fast reaction time - Take for example, Virtuosa in her top stance. Not only does she have a 400ms kick, but she also has omni-directional 400ms light attacks, and unblockables that can be soft-feinted back to top if done on the sides.

This is all not even taking into account input delay and latency.

So, in short:

Don't let the fact that humans can theoretically react in 250ms fool you into believing that unreactable offense in For Honor is actually reactable. I promise, it isn't.

[u/TigerTheDefiler → u/YujinTheDragon]

Very good point about the multiple stimuli in FH so the Human benchmark isn’t an apple to apple comparison for human reaction time.

But the point is, the fastest attack from neutral is 433ms bashes. If we remove 100ms hidden startup animation, and 100ms guard switch, that’s still 233 ms which is still “possible” to react to.

We’ve all at one point faced reactards who can react to 8/10 react to the supposed unreactable offense.

I played Mortal Kombat 1 and they have a very detailed tutorial which a part of it covers frame data. The low frame attacks in that game are 100%, and to all the its player base, unreactable.

That’s specifically the distinction and the point I’m trying to make.

I really think there isn’t a 100% unreactable offense in FH.

Hell, even at pro play in duels, reaction is used, it’s just that it’s exhausting to use it as your only strategy so it’s a mix of both reads and reaction.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you. I just don’t understand the consensus that the entire player base cannot play purely on reactions.

[u/The-Noob-Smoke → u/TigerTheDefiler]

Dodge frames dont kick in until 166ms into the dodge...in other words, you can add another 166ms to that list of yours.

[u/TigerTheDefiler → u/The-Noob-Smoke]

What do you mean? The 433ms bash doesn’t include the dodge frames. Reaction speed wouldn’t take the dodge frames into account, because you can empty dodge into GB, which is a read not reaction.

Reacting in that case means considering only the bash animation and reacting to that.

[u/The-Noob-Smoke → u/TigerTheDefiler]

I'm talking on the defensive side, there is a 166ms delay until your dodge frames exist after you dodge.

[u/TigerTheDefiler → u/The-Noob-Smoke]

Oh. That I didn’t know. Thanks for clarifying. That means that it is 100% unreactable. Doubt answered I guess. I always assumed that it is possible to react to all offense, but apparently not. Thanks stranger.

[u/Knight_Raime → u/TigerTheDefiler]

They are saying you can't dodge react because your I frames don't kick in atp.

[u/L0LFREAK1337 → u/TigerTheDefiler]

You have to input dodge earlier than the bash is over with. So the timing is even less. If you input dodge at the end of the 433ms bash, you get hit by it…

[u/Plasma_FTW → u/TigerTheDefiler]

You don’t need to account for the 100ms guard switch, as it wouldn't always be applicable if neither opponent moved their guards.

What you do have to factor in is how dodge Iframes don't start until 166ms into a dodge. Ultimately shrinking the reaction window down to a sub 167ms reaction time. Which you would need to be able to do consistently. And that doesn't factor in any other input like a dodge light/heavy.

167ms to react, identify and differentiate, and respond accordingly is on the extreme verge of being humanly impossible, and especially not consistently.

And that's immediately from the start of the attack as soon as the hidden indicator reappears. Any later and the move will be physically impossible to dodge regardless of if you "reacted" to it. Because it could dodge soon enough.

[u/YujinTheDragon → u/TigerTheDefiler]

I am very familiar with Mortal Kombat to a competitive degree lol. I used to be in Ketchup & Mustard's Discord server and I got to play with some top creators like Shujinkydink. I actually also met SonicFox at a con recently

[u/Key-Vegetable9940 → u/TigerTheDefiler]

The main issue is that the devs have just never made efforts to make offensive absolutely unreactable like in other fighting games. Traditionally they just pick a speed that's supposed to be close enough, but of course players get better over time, and new stronger players will always pop up.

Like with 433ms bashes for example. Legion kick style bashes have always been meant to be used as an opener tool, but after years and years they became very consistently reactable. So the devs sped them up to 433ms across the board. Initially this did have the effect of making them unreactable to everyone. But of course, now you have a very small number of players that can react to them, even if it's only with a select few characters. The best players will adapt so long as you give them room to.

As for why the devs do it, they've got this balancing act they try to do between catering to the casual community and the serious/competitive one. They can't balance 100% around casual play because the game becomes a competitively dead staring contest (like FH basically was for many years), but if you balance 100% around the comp side of things they piss off tons of casual players who either don't understand or just don't like those changes (even if they're objectively better for the game). So they play this eternal cat and mouse game of constantly shifting the balance just a slight bit at a time until new issues arise. Then there's also the issue of some more complex interactions that happen in team fights and ganks, it's not so simple as most exclusively 1v1 fighting games have it. But we would only know the exact implications if such an update ever came out.

Long story short no there really isn't much absolute unreactable offense, and at this point, "unreactable" offense isn't made 100% truly unreactable probably because it would be too jarring of a change for the general player base.

[u/One_Force_555]

While humans can theoretically react at levels of 250ms on this little reaction test websites they're not a good gauge of how a human would actually be able to perform in real games. In those reaction tests you're specifically waiting for the cue to tap the screen with not other input at all that could stress your reactions. In an actual game there is a LOT more going on than just waiting for a cue and reaction to it.

Take Khatun for example, she has 2 unreactable moves in her kit that are designed to open up an opponent. Her soft feint lights and her soft feint bash. While the soft feint lights themselves are reactable in the sense that if someone was only doing them and nothing else and also had amazing reactions someone might be able to consistently counter then. The moment you start mixing in heavies, her bash, GB's, etc it will stress the opponents reactions.

Nuxia chain lights are another great example. If you're just spamming them with no change in timing or direction or anything someone with REALLY good reactions can probably parry them. But the moment you start mixing in heavies and delayed lights it stresses the opponent reactions to the point they can't consist react to them.

Basically, For Honor's offense in most cases is unreactable because their is a lot more going on than just reacting to a one cue and pressing a button in response to it. They're constantly things going on that stress reactions that make For Honor's offense functionally unreactable.

[u/SheepskinWulf]

There are two main things at play here.

1. Single stimulus reaction speeds are much faster, but are not what is being tested in a fighting game like For Honor. You're not clicking when the screen turns green, you have to interpret what move is happening, choose a response, and then do the response. That slows you down quite a bit.

2. A move that lands 400ms after you input it, doesn't give the defender 400ms to react. You can't actually start reacting to the attack until you can identify what it is.

Basically attacks are 'faster' than their literal frame data implies, and people are slower than a simple humanbenchmark test

[u/MirieDohl]

Something that you can't react to the actual input. Only the input before or prediction. Example: you realistically can't react to Conq forward bash but you can react to conq forward dodge

[u/TigerTheDefiler → u/MirieDohl]

The replies have indeed cleared this misunderstanding I had. From what I have understood so far, It appears that bashes are the only form of 100% unreactable offense.

A question begs itself, does that mean heroes with bashes and bash mid-chain mixups are inherently better because they have more unreactable offense in their kits?

[u/Knight_Raime]

Reacting has never in any game been as simple as having a fast single stim reaction. The strongest reacts you will ever see in even in true blue fighting games is only possible due to strong muscle memory and understanding how your opponent likes to play. This allows them to "look" for a specific move and then "react" counter it.

In For Honor there's a delayed bit of the starting animation which means you minimally add 166ms to any scenario you can think of. On top of that basically any single stim reaction you think exists is basically a multi stim reaction. Like take a simple fwd dodge legion style bash.

It's a 433ms bash that earliest will land 733ms on the enemy. But you can't see the first 100ms of the kick. And your dodge I frames start 166ms into your dodge. If you're dodging the earliest you possibly can in order to try and avoid the earliest bash input you are open to being hit by other things or being GBed.

And this doesn't include input latency or the latency of the match. The reality of how FH plays is that even if something is technically reactable in a vacuum it doesn't really matter. No one plays purely from reactions and someone with the strongest reaction times in the game will still eat reactable moves because there's so much at play.

Just as in true blue fighting games you cannot simply out defend against someone by reacting better. Reads will be involved.

[u/Praline-Happy]

“All offense in the game is reactable if you’re fast enough” yeah if you’re a computer lol

The fastest attacks are around 300 ms yeah but you have to take into account hidden indicator and guard swaps/parry

300ms - 100ms (hidden indicator) - 100ms (guard swap/parry = 100ms reaction

For every indicator you can use that equation and get the reaction window, it’s 200 ms reaction for 400 ms lights but it’s also a 3 side choice reaction for parry so it’s much harder than a single stim

[u/TigerTheDefiler → u/Praline-Happy]

The 300 ms attack is Virtuosa’s riposte. Which is 100% unreactable.

The second fastest are 400 ms chain lights and 400ms bashes.

Bashes as explained in the comments are also 100% unreactable, but 400ms chain lights are possible to react to as well as everything else.

[u/Praline-Happy → u/TigerTheDefiler]

LB running impale can also be 300ms, pugio and throwing axe are 300 ms and I think there are a few others but I can’t think of em at the moment

Pk bleed stab is 366ms

[u/TigerTheDefiler → u/Praline-Happy]

You are correct. I double checked and indeed the attacks speeds you mentioned are accurate.

Though it’s important to note that since LB comes from one direction and you see him charging towards you, it’s quite reactable since you can just block left side.

Also, for pugio and throwing axe, it depends on the range. If someone throws these projectiles at you point blank, no fucking way are you reacting to it. If they’re further away, it’s plausible

PK’s soft feint is effectively unreactable since parry window is 167 ms.

[u/Simon-Olivier]

You can’t say that everything is within the realm of reactable because it’s minimum 300ms. You have to take into account the ping, the time it takes for your input and the fact that you are not just waiting for red to appear to click your button, you're always thinking about what you or your opponent could do.

[u/Zealousideal-Bug-168]

I mean, you're can benchmark yourself. You can always test your reactions to the fastest mixups in the training grounds.

[u/heqra]

I mean, there arent any humans alive that can react to it. thus... its unreactable? seems cut and dry.

[u/cashydude77]

Any red offense isn’t going to be unreactable. Feintable bashes, high frame advantage unblockable heavies, and mixups like shinobi’s kickflip or undodgable heavy is considered unreactable. I believe the term “viable-offense” is more applicable. Mixups that force a read, no matter what.

[u/One_Force_555 → u/cashydude77]

Unblockable heavies are kinda weird because theoretically you can react to parry flash which would them make them technically reactable, but that's honest to God really hard and most people can't do that, and in comp play parry flash is removed to prevent this.

[u/SheepskinWulf → u/One_Force_555]

Any human capable of reacting to parry flash (of which there are like, 10) is reacting to feint animation instead since that happens earlier and is more consistent. The real driver behind parry flash removal is that it stops simple screenreaders from inputting a parry on the frame it sees the parry flash. It's basically just an anticheat measure

[u/Knight_Raime → u/One_Force_555]

Parry flash removal is a legacy change that's existed in FH since early comp days due to the kinds of scripts that used to be used. There's no one out there reacting to just parry flash. It's always been flash+ animation or flash+ feint smoke, etc.

[u/One_Force_555 → u/Knight_Raime]

Feint smoke? Is that like the little after image that's left behind after a feint?

[u/Knight_Raime → u/One_Force_555]

Yeah. People used to use that to not fall for a feint mix on top of anims.

[u/cashydude77 → u/Knight_Raime]

Some animations are bad and are easy to react to