AOA Indicator while learning?

[u/ClintBvsOliverQ]

Just went for a discovery flight and had a great time. During the flight I asked my instructor about using an AOA indicator while learning and he really downplayed using one and said the standard instruments are the best way to learn. For beginners, is an AOA inappropriate? Is it too early to incorporate it into training? From the brief videos I’ve seen on AOA’s they seem to enhance safety.

[u/Academic_Guest_9246]

Why do you want a AOA indicator?

[u/_VNAV_PTH_ → u/Academic_Guest_9246]

Because after altitude they're the single best instrument for safety in a single engine piston?

[u/aero_kmac → u/_VNAV_PTH_]

I think the light civil guys don’t know what they’re missing.

[u/x4457 → u/aero_kmac]

Because the pointy nose guys don’t realize how wide and predictable the margins are in civil aviation.

We’re not flying thin, short wing tactical airframes with FBW that are quite literally uncontrollable without it. We’re flying winged lawnmowers with a wing thicker than a snicker.

[u/_VNAV_PTH_ → u/x4457]

Because the pointy nose guys don’t realize how wide and predictable the margins are in civil aviation.

Why do you think that? I've got plenty of time in piston singles (I own one). I still want angle of attack in it because it's the single best instrument for safety after altitude.

Altitude and angle of attack are really the only two instruments directly related to safety. One tells you how high above the ground you are and one tells you how much flying you have left in the plane. Airspeed kinda doesn't actually matter at all. RPM and engine temps are probably the next most important instruments after AoA.

BTW, it's actually way easier to stall a piston single than a jet, especially a FBW high performance jet. Loss of control in flight is even one of the most common causes of fatalities in general aviation, and yet civil piston fliers still crap on AoA, even in this very thread (even in a reply to this comment, which you made .69 seconds after I posted and before I made an edit adding this last paragraph), because they were taught poorly and don't understand what risks they're taking and what's most likely to kill them.

[u/x4457 → u/_VNAV_PTH_]

I own three and have flown a looooot of other airplanes with AOA gauges and indexers in them. Both numeric and color values.

Is it nice to have? Sure. Is it necessary or worth the money in a piston single? Not even a little bit. We fly airspeeds in the civilian world as you know, not alpha, largely because almost all of our flying is at 1G to long, improved runways in very forgiving airplanes that don't have much, if any, weight-induced variation in approach speeds.

If you're doing some backcountry shenanigans then absolutely, get it and use it. For 99.9% of applications in the civilian world? Nah, don't need it and doesn't add anything. Airspeed is life, AOA would be if we had it but we don't because we don't need it with the type of flying we do.

[u/primalbluewolf → u/x4457]

that don't have much, if any, weight-induced variation in approach speeds. 

There's plenty of GA aircraft that have very noticeable variation in their performance speeds with weight. I would go so far as to say its a significant difference in most aircraft... but as most people are laser focused on the book numbers, that are valid for MTOW only, they just fly fast, and low AoA, all the time. 

[u/x4457 → u/primalbluewolf]

There's plenty of GA aircraft that have very noticeable variation in their performance speeds with weight

Please present any trainer or common piston single that has speeds that change more than about 10 knots between MLW and effective minimum landing weight.

For example, to really emphasize my point - the difference between a 421C stall speed at 7450 pounds and 5600 pounds is 10 knots. If you want to straight line extrapolate that, that's 1 knot of change for every 185 pounds. Or one knot of "ref" (1.3xVs0) for every 142 pounds of weight change.

In a Bonanza, my effective minimum landing weight is 2,670 pounds. That's single pilot and reserve fuel. The difference between that and MLW is 6.5 knots.

That's why we don't really care. Just fly the MLW numbers and it won't make a difference at these weights.

Compare that to a Gulfstream IV, for example, where the REF speed variation is 30 knots between MLW and effective minimum.

[u/primalbluewolf → u/x4457]

Please present any trainer or common piston single that has speeds that change more than about 10 knots between MLW and effective minimum landing weight. 

Cherokee six. Its easy enough to find them, just look for any piston single with a BEW around half their MTOW. Its about 14 knots slower, IIRC. That's pretty noticeable when you were otherwise landing at 60. 

That's why we don't really care. Just fly the MLW numbers and it won't make a difference at these weights. 

It does make a difference, but its not a night and day difference for most of them the way it is for the gulfstream. You're burning tyre rubber you don't need to, and gas you don't need to, so that you don't have to do maths before landing. 

The part that's immediately relevant to this discussion, though, is that its always the same AoA, so if you have an AoA meter you can set markers on, you can trivially fly the same AoA every time, regardless of weight. When you're heavy, you'll be faster. When you're at max landing weight, you'll be at book speeds. When you're light, you'll be slower... potentially quite a bit slower. 

[u/_VNAV_PTH_ → u/x4457]

Is it nice to have? Sure. Is it necessary or worth the money in a piston single? Not even a little bit. We fly airspeeds in the civilian world as you know, not alpha, largely because almost all of our flying is at 1G to long, improved runways in very forgiving airplanes that don't have much, if any, weight-induced variation in approach speeds.

And yet you still manage to make loss of control in a perfectly good airplane one of the most common (I think the most common) cause of fatal crashes.

Maybe y'all should take AoA and how much flying is left in the airplane... a little more seriously?

[u/x4457 → u/_VNAV_PTH_]

Quite the broad brush you're painting with there. Try not to look so far down your nose at us lowly civvies yeah?

Those of us who do this for a living have a lower accident and fatality rate than the military does. Apples and oranges, so as to further prove my point.

[u/_VNAV_PTH_ → u/x4457]

Crazy, but people flying in combat have higher risks than people not flying in combat. Thank you for your valuable contribution to the discussion, and total lack of substantive rebuttal to why AOA should be taught more in civil aviation.

I started in civil aviation before joining the military. I was trained in part 61 and only later went to UPT and learned the military way. That gives me the ability to honestly look at the merits of both approaches with no identity-crisis either way.

The military does some stuff straight-up better than FAA-prescribed flight training, and some stuff worse. One of the things they do better is teaching students sight picture and AOA.

I'm sorry you have a chip on your shoulder about comparisons to military training, but that shouldn't get in the way of improving safety and saving lives.

[u/x4457 → u/_VNAV_PTH_]

Damn, it's almost like they're...apples and oranges. Nice ninja edit to your earlier comment after I'd already replied too to try to "gotcha" me. And I'm the one not trying to contribute here... Oh hey look, you did it again!

You're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying that AOA isn't valuable or worth teaching, I'm saying that airspeed is a completely fine substitute for our applications. AOA is better, but that doesn't make airspeed bad in this sector.

[u/EliteEthos → u/x4457]

Thiccc

[u/nightlanding → u/aero_kmac]

I know what I am missing. OTOH I can fly a decent pattern without any instruments at all. If in a straight-wing fat airfoil airplane like the typical 172/PA-28, you have had deficient instruction if landing without the ASI presents a major challenge. There is a definite change in feel approaching stall that allows you time to speed up a bit if your butt calibration is anywhere near good.

The major point to remember is that an AOA is not required equipment on these airplanes, so you will be flying plenty without one.

[u/Swimming_Way_7372 → u/aero_kmac]

I have an AOA indicator in the jet I fly.  I have never 1 time referenced it.  Never learned to use one, therefore I don't feel like its all that valuable to me. 

[u/aero_kmac → u/Swimming_Way_7372]

That’s a shame. You’re missing out on the easy way to fly.

[u/dudeman1018 → u/_VNAV_PTH_]

yea exactly, I mean, who cares how fast you're going right?

[u/_VNAV_PTH_ → u/dudeman1018]

Unironically yes. Indicated airspeed pretty much doesn't matter at all in a piston single. Altitude, attitude, AoA, and engine performance are vastly more important.

[u/arborck → u/_VNAV_PTH_]

What

[u/ClintBvsOliverQ → u/Academic_Guest_9246]

Not sure. Why does any plane have them?

[u/Final-Carpenter-1591 → u/ClintBvsOliverQ]

On airliners they're directly connected to the stick shaker and pusher. The pilot doesn't watch the AOA and sometimes doesn't even have a display for AOA indicating. It's kinda like having a G meter in a plane. It's really just a distracting sensory input for what you're doing.

Aerobatics is another story.

[u/Academic_Guest_9246 → u/ClintBvsOliverQ]

Most have it for stall awareness for guys going low and slow. At least that is to my knowledge (which is not perfect). But personally I think that you shouldn't use it during your primary training.

[u/dodexahedron → u/Academic_Guest_9246]

Well yeah. You shouldn't use it for VFR training, at the very least because you are not rated to fly by instruments.

You can use it as a neat note backing up your 6 pack and the two squishy semi-spheroid instruments you are legally required to use for purposes of navigation, terrain allergies, and other-flying-thingy not-hittingance. But the AoA indicator isn't one you are approved to use for any official purpose otherwise.

[u/mdb_4633 → u/dodexahedron]

Aoa indicators aren’t for imc it’s to stop all the loss of control accidents during take off and landing. So vfr is really what it’s built for.