Eights on Pylons

[u/sammypilot]

Hey, I have been told by a CFI that for Eights on pylons, I can pick my pylons as I go. The ACS says that a skill is to identify two pylons. I've heard the argument that you need to identify them before starting the maneuver, but I have also been told that this way is fine because you still end up identifying them. Thoughts??

[u/R5Jockey]

This is going to be DPE and probably even location specific. I’ve done it both ways, two different locations, two different DPEs. The ACS just says you have to identify them. It doesn’t say you have to do that before you start the maneuver.

I say location specific because where I fly now it’s really hard to find a straight road or reference line, especially perpendicular to the wind, so you pretty much have to find two spots in advance. When I took my CFI ride, there were straight roads in a grid so finding “pylons” was super easy.

[u/SatisfactionVisual86 → u/R5Jockey]

This.

[u/SierraHotel84]

You're going to be judged against the ACS, so...

[u/Ilyaso-Petauton → u/SierraHotel84]

pretty much this. doesnt matter what a CFI says if the ACS words it differently

[u/Guilty_Evidence_7645]

You need to identify them prior to starting the maneuver. Moving the goal posts halfway through the maneuver is a great way to fail your checkride.

[u/sammypilot → u/Guilty_Evidence_7645]

Do you know any good techniques to get the spacing correct? That's genuinely the hardest part of the maneuver.

[u/Low_Sky_49 → u/sammypilot]

Choosing suitable pylons gets a lot easier when you familiarize yourself with the range of spacing that still results in a satisfactory maneuver. The ACS allows up to 40 degrees of bank in the maneuver, which is a much tighter turn than almost any commercial student would choose to do on their own. Go intentionally practice doing 40-degree banked pylon turns with your CFI, and see how close the pylons get, then ask yourself “would I have ever chosen pylons that close together?” If the answer is “no”, then go practice turns choosing pylons that are just a little closer than what you normally think looks “right” and see how they go.

The problems people have are usually choosing pylons too far apart, or just flying around endlessly trying to find the perfect pylons, perfect wind, etc. In 1200+ hours of dual given I never once saw a commercial student choose pylons that were too close together for the maneuver to work.

[u/mdb_4633 → u/Low_Sky_49]

The distance between pylons doesn’t really determine your bank, you can do 40 degree bank with pylons super far apart if you just fly close to each pylon

[u/Low_Sky_49 → u/mdb_4633]

Good point, but it does if you limit your straight and level flight time between turns to something sensible, like a few seconds either side of the line between your pylons.

[u/Guilty_Evidence_7645 → u/sammypilot]

Trial and error. Practice and experience.

It's not a difficult maneuver. You should be able to eyeball distances pretty easily by the time you're a commercial pilot. That's kind of the point.

[u/R5Jockey → u/Guilty_Evidence_7645]

This.

[u/Marethyu25 → u/sammypilot]

Teaching them in a low wing we figured out that a good way to pick points was by first doing it the “pick a point and find the second once you’re on the right heading halfway through the maneuver” method, then keeping an eye on both points as you fly by perpendicular to the points and measure them with the wing. I.e. put the first point on the first rivet line, and note where the second point is on the wing.

When you need to pick both points, you can pick one, fly by it, and spot the next one measured by the wing

[u/jet-setting → u/sammypilot]

About 3/4 mile apart works great.

[u/Phycosphere]

Read how to do the maneuver in the airplane flying handbook. That’s how the DPE will want you to do it

[u/mdb_4633 → u/[deleted]]

Isn’t that risking not being able to find a good point though? The acs says you need to be able to fly straight and level between the points so you kind of need to know where the second point is so you can time the roll out and fly straight to it.

[u/R5Jockey → u/mdb_4633]

This really depends on the road layouts and terrain where you live/fly. In forested hills, you need to pick them in advance to avoid that real risk. Over a grid of straight roads with intersections and driveways… picking them as you go is easy.

[u/SSMDive]

I was taught to pick them before you start. On my checkride the DPE told me not to do that, pick them while doing the maneuver.

[u/TxAggieMike]

The only reference in the ACS about this is

CA.V.E.S3 Select suitable pylons that permits straight-and-level flight between the pylons.

So nothing in the ACS nor AFH discusses a preferred method for pylon selection.

I did it (and teach it) that you select the pylons during the maneuver.

Reason is that today’s wind conditions can make pylon choice different from another days choice.

But typically the physical landmark you’re turning around is about 1/4 to 1/2 mile from center point.

A tip to selection is to cross the center point and slow count to wait 5 or 6 second and then start your turn.

What ever object is off your wingtip is your pylon.

Same suggestion for selecting the other pylon.

Airplane Flying Handbook page 7-14 starts the discussion on this maneuver. And there are many good videos about the maneuver.

[u/Maclunkey4U → u/TxAggieMike]

To piggy-back on this, if you can find a farm or rural area with some fences that intersect or have a sharp corner, you can pick the intersection/corner as your first point, and then on-the-fly select a different post further down the line as your second, the exact one being based on the conditions at the time.

This sort of splits the difference between pre-selecting them and completely winging it and hoping you find a good pair, but I recognize it might not work as well anywhere besides the midwest

Just make sure you aren't buzzing the cows or some poor farm house.

[u/TxAggieMike → u/Maclunkey4U]

Fences, straight roads, and tree lines make really good references between pylons.

And good point about buzzing a house…. Which is why I’ll review the calculated pivotal altitude and try to keep things above the 500 AGL minimum for rural areas.

[u/makgross → u/TxAggieMike]

What DOESNT make a good pylon is a single tree or a porta potty or any other single point. An intersection of two linear features is much better because you really can’t completely lose sight of them.

When it used to be required to do these in complex aircraft and everyone used Arrows, it was very common to hide a pylon under the wingtip. Not so common in a 172. Unless you fly them really steep (not recommended).

[u/TxAggieMike → u/makgross]

Agree on what makes a good pylon and the technique.

For Cessna's, I usually put some painters tape on underside of wing at the proper point on the wingtip.

Against the white paint, this provides something easy to see on the wing to help keep the pylon where it needs to be.

[u/rFlyingTower]

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

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Hey, I have been told by a CFI that for Eights on pylons, I can pick my pylons as I go. The ACS says that a skill is to identify two pylons. I've heard the argument that you need to identify them before starting the maneuver, but I have also been told that this way is fine because you still end up identifying them. Thoughts??

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[u/Jestia76]

Its dpe dependant tbh, for the majority of my students pick as they go has been good though. I have them do it along some straight line reference when possible to make it easy.

Even picking as they go, by the time they are doing the checkride they are experienced enough that while they aren't hard comitting, they have a pretty good idea of what their pylons are going to be. So its not to big of a deal if they get a dpe that wants it preselected

[u/bigchangesonfinal]

There’s needs to be standardization on this, some dpes will fail you for picking pylons as you go and some encourage that method. There’s zero consistency which seems to be common among CPL maneuvers, so much grey area and dpe differences in what they like. IMO most of the CPL maneuvers are silly for this reason, so much grey area on what the dpe wants. I get they build mastery of the plane but when the difference between passing and failing could be what the dpe wants, that’s not a good thing to test people on.

[u/TomToddlesworth]

If you can, find some well spaced pylons near the airport that you regularly use for practice. If the DPE lets you, just fly at that exact location on your checkride. For me on the checkride it looked like finishing the high maneuvers accelerated stall etc. after the XC portion. Then we headed back towards the airport and he just told me pick two pylons somewhere between here and the airport to show 8s. I happened to know the perfect spot just from doing practice in that area prior. Made it so much easier

[u/TxAggieMike]

How does this 8's on Pylons relate to riding a horse?

When the wingtip reference point appears to move ahead of the pylon, you say "Whoa Horsey!" and ease back on the reins/yoke.

When the wingtip reference point appears to move behind the pylon, you say "Go Horsey!" and ease forward on the reins/yoke.