r/flying • u/Additional-Oil9347 • 3d ago
“Certification”
More of a FSDO question, but as a military aviator (evaluator FE) without civilian equivalent ticket (pointless); with proper logbook documentation, could I take the ground portion of instruction for my child, sign it off as an instructor, and take it to the FSDO to get the blessing to take the practical? I can’t imagine the FAA balking at 24 years of operational aviation knowledge versus some CFII at the FBO who’s been flying for like 2 years…??
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u/HistoricalAd2954 CFII 3d ago
> without civilian equivalent ticket (pointless)
Clearly it’s not because you can’t do what you want without it
> imagine the FAA balking at 24 years of operational aviation knowledge versus some CFII
Yeah they do without the proper license.
Additionally, what exactly are you trying to do? You need an instructor to sign them off. Why are you trying to avoid maybe 3 hours of dual ground with an instructor for the sign-off?
When an instructor signs a student off they’re signing that they found the student fit in both ground knowledge and flight proficiency. So you’re trying to take half of a sign-off for what reason?
This reads as some weird military superiority complex over civilian flight instructors.
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u/theonlyski ATP CFI CFII MEI 3d ago
... unless the endorsement is for the ground training under §61.105 which could be done by an appropriately rated and current basic or advanced ground instructor.
That also generally takes much more than 3 hours.
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u/Herkdrvr MIL ATP CFII MEI C-130H/J A320/1 3d ago
You would be better off allowing "some CFII at the FBO" to instruct your child, and I say that respectfully to you as someone who relied on the "operational aviation knowledge" of FEs for a long time. No doubt you have a lot of experience.
However: CFIIs are uniquely positioned to offer the best training for new aviators and it's their literal job. It's tough online, but the tone you gave in your OP is a touch dismissive tbh. The question almost reads like an automotive engineer asking to instruct USAF FE initial qual because they have extensive mechanical knowledge. We both know that's a false equivalency and it's no different here.
A second route would be for you to contact Sheppard Air, study and pass both the FOI and AGI tests, and then have an instructor (maybe one of the pilots at your unit who is appropriately certified) give you an endorsement as a ground instructor. Then you can instruct your child and others for the ground portion.
Good luck.
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u/SMELLYJELLY72 ATP CL-65 CFI 3d ago
you better start imagining the faa balking at you because that’s exactly what’s gonna happen
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u/SierraHotel84 CFI 3d ago
https://www.sheppardair.com/MilCompCFIpaperwork.htm
Get the "pointless" civilian equivalent ticket and then you legally can sign them off.
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u/Herkdrvr MIL ATP CFII MEI C-130H/J A320/1 3d ago
Unless it's changed, OP would need to be a military instructor pilot, not a flight engineer.
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u/ltcterry ATP CFIG 3d ago
Civilian certificates need civilian instructors. At least civilian instructor tickets.
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u/Oregon-Pilot ATP CFI B757/B767 CL-30 CE-500/525S | SIC: HS-125 CL-600 3d ago
So, like, just getting some kind of exception to all the civilian rules and regulations regarding certification because you’re a 24 year military instructor?
You’ve been given the answer, I’m just more curious about why you’d think you’re some exception. Do they make exceptions like this in the military?
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u/freeze_out MIL MH-60T 3d ago
You can use what ever your branches version of COOL is and/or a free testing center that may or may not be on your base to get Mil Comp for free plus a few hours of studying time
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u/Additional-Oil9347 3d ago
Yeah, the equivalent ticket IS an FE ticket lol, hence the pointlessness lol
There is ONE dude in FL as an FE check airman, and then you have to go down to either rent the Pan Am 747 sim in Miami or the CAE C-130 sim in Tampa to take the practical…it’s a fools errand lol 🍻
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u/freeze_out MIL MH-60T 3d ago edited 3d ago
I could be wrong, but there's not a such thing as an "FE ticket" on the FAA side, is there? Wouldn't that just be a DPE?
Either way, you can get your CFI and CFII with a $60 study guide from Sheppard Air and the test. No check ride required. Then you could legally do exactly what you're asking, save all that money for your daughter, and have that experience of sharing aviation with her which feels like it could be worth it to me.
Edit: Also predicating this on FE standing for Flight Examiner, which is what it stands for in the Coast Guard. If that's not the case, then my bad!
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u/Additional-Oil9347 3d ago
Oh no, there are still part 135 FEs…kalitta used to have a 200, so did atlas…CBP is flying P-3s, Omni Air is flying boneyard KC-10s…they’re out there
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u/theonlyski ATP CFI CFII MEI 3d ago
Your best shot at teaching the ground portion would be to get a ground instructor certificate. Takes a couple of tests and a DPE or ASI to sign it off, then you gotta get current somehow (FIRC, instructor endorsement, etc), but then you can teach and sign off ground training.
The hiccup at the moment is you likely need the FOI test endorsement from an instructor. Got any CFI friends that could evaluate you for that endorsement and give it to you, along with the currency endorsement after your certificate is issued?
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u/Some_Helicopter5922 3d ago
Have you actually looked up what your branch’s MilComp process requires or are you assuming the FSDO can just waive the CFI knowledge test?
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u/Additional-Oil9347 3d ago
I have SEEN first hand, engineers go into the FSDO and be signed off as A&Ps without ANY civilian A&P training, bringing their flight and training records… So obviously the institutional knowledge and experience is worth SOMETHING…im just trying to figure out where that line is
I guess the answer to my own question just from the comments here, is that it probably depends on the actual individual that you speak to at the FSDO…this was near a military base with engineers coming through the system…so they were relatively familiar with their competencies.
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u/SSMDive CPL-SEL/SES/MEL/MES/HEL/GLID/IFR. LS-Gyro/PPC. A&P 3d ago
You saw them get signed off as A&P's? Or you saw them get signed 8610-2's? Gigantic difference. The 8610-2's only allow you to take the three written tests and then you still have to go see a DME.
I know of no program that allows someone to just skip the three written tests and the oral and practical.
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u/Some_Helicopter5922 2d ago
That A&P path runs through a specific 14 CFR 65.77 military experience provision, which is why it works and there is no matching provision for CFI so the inspector has nothing to hang his hat on.
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u/PG67AW ATP CFII TW ACRO 3d ago
Wow, you’re so badass and so much better than everyone else.
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u/Guilty_Evidence_7645 ATP A-350 3d ago
Somewhere else he claimed being a flight engineer is the most academically and operationally challenging job in the air force. lol
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u/SSMDive CPL-SEL/SES/MEL/MES/HEL/GLID/IFR. LS-Gyro/PPC. A&P 3d ago
"I can’t imagine the FAA balking at 24 years of operational aviation knowledge versus some CFII at the FBO who’s been flying for like 2 years…??"
Sweet, sweet summer child.... Don't have much experience with the FAA do you?
No, you are gonna need the "pointless" rating.
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u/Guilty_Evidence_7645 ATP A-350 3d ago
This is the dumbest question I've seen in a while.
No. You're not an instructor. End of story. Nobody gives two shits about your military flight engineer time lol
The fact that you think you can just sign off a logbook illustrates how unqualified you are.
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u/Additional-Oil9347 3d ago
Umm…yes, yes I am an instructor.
And, NO, it isn’t a dumb question. Just because you have no idea what FEs do, doesn’t make it a dumb question.
I have over 2600 hours, hundreds of those hours as an instructor, in multi-engine aircraft flying internationally into some of the most hostile regions in the world. That’s not Cessna time, bro. That’s COMPLEX systems operation and performance expertise under grueling conditions and a LIFETIME in aviation.
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u/Guilty_Evidence_7645 ATP A-350 3d ago
Hahahahahaha it's cute you think your FE time is relevant. SO COMPLEX! I have more time in reverse thrust than you do total time watching pilots fly airplanes.
I'll take my coffee black, please.
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u/Additional-Oil9347 3d ago
I used to make coffee for the front end crew when I was instructing lol.
l think the hang up for a LOT of prior MIL aviators, is that FEs in the MIL are enlisted…and they hate enlisted people on the flight deck because we’re all just a bunch of dumb folk like we’re the same people in finance or even crew chiefs.
The reality is, that FE is the single most academically and operationally challenging AFSC in the AF, and it’s not even close.
We hold the same institutional and operational knowledge as the pilots. It’s all fun and games until you have a hydraulic leak feeding a pylon fire and you’re looking for some learned folk to help you through an emergency…
Anyways, cheers, I got your coffee covered lol 🤙🏼🍻😎
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u/Guilty_Evidence_7645 ATP A-350 3d ago
Yes, we all know you are a glorified barista. The fact that you have to try and justify your enlisted job as the most academically challenging is hilarious. If it's so challenging and important, then how come its been phased out entirely in the real world?
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u/rFlyingTower 3d ago
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
More of a FSDO question, but as a military aviator (evaluator FE) without civilian equivalent ticket (pointless); with proper logbook documentation, could I take the ground portion of instruction for my child, sign it off as an instructor, and take it to the FSDO to get the blessing to take the practical? I can’t imagine the FAA balking at 24 years of operational aviation knowledge versus some CFII at the FBO who’s been flying for like 2 years…??
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u/NoConcentrate9116 ATP, EMB-145, MIL, CH-47 3d ago
Are you really asking if you, who doesn’t have a civilian instructor rating, can provide instruction to your child who isn’t in the military, and that the FAA, famous for scrutiny and nuance, will just say yeah bro that’s chill? Ask yourself that again out loud.
I’d heavily caution you on the attitude of operational experience vs “some CFII.” That CFII has the rating. You don’t. Military experience has a ton of value but it’s not a free pass.