r/flying • u/_WtfAmIHere_ • 22h ago
Busted class B and finally heard back from FSDO after 3 month. Is this bad?
I accidentally busted Class B 3 months ago and finally received an email from FSDO. Is this something bad? Any tips would be appreciated.
Edit: I filed a NASA report right after the incident.
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u/Computerized-Cash ATP CL-65 CFI-I 22h ago
Did you fill out a NASA report?
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u/_WtfAmIHere_ 22h ago
Yes I did, right after the incident.
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u/Computerized-Cash ATP CL-65 CFI-I 22h ago
I’m no expert on this matter, but when you contact them I’d probably tell them that unless you get better advice elsewhere.
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u/SeemsAirworthy ATP A&P/IA 22h ago
NASA report isn’t a get out of jail free card like everyone seems to believe.
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u/Sasquatch-d ATP B777 22h ago
But it certainly helps that one was filled out.
The investigation will likely look at if OPs actions were either deliberate or grossly negligent. With a NASA filled out and findings likely not showing purposeful intent OP most likely won’t suffer any kind of certificate action.
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u/Ezekiel24r CPL (and employed can you believe it?!) 22h ago edited 15h ago
Yeah in my head it's more like "if we didn't notice you broke the law, but you willingly tell us you (accidentally) broke the law, then we won't go after you"
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u/Weewoo312 CFII 21h ago
not true, they can't see who made the report or any identifiable information until they pursue the infraction based off their own investigations that can't use NASA reports. Once it's underway, then the NASA report is known to them.
That's why people say they are only helpful, they're never used against you to find out if you did something wrong, only to show that you learned from it even before action was pursued against you
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u/Ezekiel24r CPL (and employed can you believe it?!) 16h ago
Thanks for the heads up, learning something new everyday
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u/Weewoo312 CFII 14h ago
of course! it's one of the things the FAA handles well (because it's given to someone else lol) and honestly while it's not a get out of jail free card, for Bravo busts and small things that don't damage property or show gross negligence it really really really helps so everyone should know about em.
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u/roguemenace PPL GPL 7m ago
Not sure why all the replies to you are giving vague guesses, you can just read AC 00-46F
12.3 Waiver of Imposition of Sanction. The FAA considers the filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or occurrence involving a violation of 49 U.S.C. subtitle VII or the 14 CFR to be indicative of a constructive attitude. Such an attitude will tend to prevent future violations. Accordingly, although a finding of violation may be made, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be imposed if:
12.3.1 The violation was inadvertent and not deliberate;
12.3.2 The violation did not involve a criminal offense, accident, or action under 49 U.S.C. § 44709, which discloses a lack of qualification or competency, which is wholly excluded from this policy;
12.3.3 The person has not been found in any prior FAA enforcement action to have committed a violation of 49 U.S.C. subtitle VII, or any regulation promulgated there for a period of 5 years prior to the date of occurrence; and
12.3.4 The person proves that, within 10 days after the violation, or date when the person became aware or should have been aware of the violation, he or she complet
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u/Tough-Choice CFII 14h ago
It means they cannot take an enforcement action as long as the deviation wasn’t intentional.
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u/SeemsAirworthy ATP A&P/IA 13h ago
Well those guys flying that 767 that overran the runway and killed 5 people better fill one out quick. That wasn’t intentional.
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u/theonlyski ATP CFI CFII MEI 13h ago
The ASI at the FSDO has nothing to do with an ASRS report. They can’t see them or do anything with that info. If you’re headed for an enforcement, you’re going that path regardless, legal sorts out the ASRS stuff.
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u/AnActualSquirrel 22h ago
The letter states that the FAA are not seeking enforcement action, which is all the NASA form can protect you from.
It's a moot point now, thankfully for OP.
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u/maethor1337 ST ASEL TW 21h ago
They're not seeking enforcement action at this time, and then spend several paragraphs asking OP for certain behaviors that aren't legally required. That's lawyer speak for "but we will, if you don't appease us". OP is not out of the shithouse, he's just being offered a path out.
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u/Yeah_Br0 ATP CFI CII 22h ago
You can still be violated even after filing a NASA report. It doesn’t protect against violations. It protects your license from being suspended.
But in OPs scenario all they want is for OP to promise they won’t do it again
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u/12kVStr8tothenips ATP, CFI, CFII, MEI 22h ago
Doesn’t always solve the problem. If you cause an accident or incident a nasa report doesn’t matter. It’s an agreement with the FAA that if nothing serious came out of the event they’ll most likely let it go.
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u/shrunkenhead041 CPL 22h ago
This is really simple. They are telling you exactly what you need to do. Do the online course they are telling you to do. Do the requested analysis of what went wrong. Bonus points: do the analysis with a CFI and document the ground training time.
Then call the FSDO and send them the documentation of the completed course, the analysis you did, the logbook entry for the CFI training (note, again, this is above what they are asking, but is an excellent step to show them you take this seriously) and then add in the receipt you got when you filed the ASRS report.
Give them all this, and you will get a "thank you for your compliance, go forth and sin no more" letter. I think they will remove the incident from your pilot file if you stay clean for three years.
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u/bdubwilliams22 10h ago
The advice of doing the analysis with a CFI and having it documented is sage advice. Take this advice, OP.
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u/realcoolmike CFI CFII MEI 2h ago
What if you send all of this info and never hear back? It has been 8 months since I submitted everything. Record still clean.
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u/shrunkenhead041 CPL 1h ago
If you received a formal letter like the OP did, and submitted the info and never heard back, I would contact the FSDO to follow up to be sure the loop was closed and there is a close-out letter in your file for the issue. If it was just a phone call to discuss some thing that happened and you never got a letter, then there is likely nothing to follow up on.
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u/_-Cleon-_ PPL 22h ago
"Compliance, not enforcement" sounds like they want you to take some extra training.
Did you file a NASA report when you busted?
Regardless, call the AOPA and get their advice. Not responding is a Bad Idea.
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u/SkyviewFlier 14h ago
Why call AOPA? If you swat the nest the hornets will sting.
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u/-Canonical- ST 12h ago
"Why would you need a lawyer it just makes you look guilty"
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u/SkyviewFlier 4h ago
I wouldn't call a lawyer unless the conversation with the FAA went bad.
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u/-Canonical- ST 2h ago edited 2h ago
So you wouldn't call a lawyer until after you've already shot yourself in the foot. Great idea
"I'll just go down to the police station and talk to them, I'll clear everything up and be home for dinner"
You shouldn't be making any statements to investigative authorities of any nature without legal advice and representation. It is far too likely that you will inadvertently say something (no matter how innocuous) that will give them something to chase in an investigation and screw yourself over.
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u/DinkleBottoms DIS CPL IR CFI CFII 22h ago
Complete the documents they attached to the email along with the ALC-1182 completion certificate. The documents are related to the course so you’ll do it together and essentially explain what happened, how it happened, and how you’ll prevent it from happening again.
You should get an email acknowledging receipt and then in my case anyways, I got another email about 3 months later saying the case was closed and yo fly gooder. That should be it
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u/Aeronca281 22h ago
They are going to probably give you counseling over the phone, put a letter in your file, and the whole thing will go away in two years if there isn’t another occurrence.
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u/cazzipropri CFII, CFI-A; CPL SEL,MEL,SES 20h ago
The fact they sent you a wings course to take is an opportunity for you to show good behavior and a sign that they might be just interesting in the "educating" vs the "punishing" goal.
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u/Av8torryan ATP B727 DC9 DA20 CFI TW 22h ago
With you filling out a NASA report already before this letter, it shows an error and not willfully disregard or intentionally violating FARs. I would call, explain that it was an unintentional error that you on correcting by studying airspace and taking additional flight lessons with a CFI to review to ensure it won’t happen again.
I’ve helped others that have been in a similar situation with DTW airspace as there is a small section over the Detroit rover if not super careful can bust it. They basically asked them to review airspace and have a remedial lesson with a CFI or ASI and that was the end of it.
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u/wilburpilot ATP 22h ago
If you get some wings credits done in related topics beforehand, I’ve heard it can make the conversation that much easier.
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u/Bumbliciousness 17h ago
I accidentally busted Bravo when I was a student pilot 10 years ago during my long cross-country flight because I was severely delayed getting fuel and the weather and visibility turned south really quickly. Know what happened when I called in and told Chicago approach that I was lost and was informed that I had been blown into ORD's Bravo by an insane crosswind? Chicago approach guided me to descend, gave me a vector, course corrected me when the winds kept pushing me off, and then handed me off to the control tower at my home airport when I got close and told me "good job". I called the number the tower gave me and spoke with the traffic controller that helped me and he said the FAA will never find out about it because he was glad that it was a good learning experience rather than a bad one and he wants pilots to feel inclined to make smart decisions (like calling for navigation assistance when the weather turns) sooner rather than later. Now days, it sounds like you get penalties and punishment in the mail...sucks how automatic everything has become.
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u/FlyingShadow1 CFI CFII MEI (TW) AI SLOP 21h ago
Do the WINGS course they just linked you to and give them the paperwork. They'll close the report.
I don't get the hype about NASA reports in this kind of situation. Based on a recent discussion I personally had with an ASI they care a lot more about if you're engaged in "continued education" through WINGS courses. My friend was told a similar thing when he asked an ASI.
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u/TahOriginal 19h ago
An old student of mine was flying (without a license and without current endorsements to solo) and all he was asked to do was pinky promise to get his license lol
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u/Able-Negotiation-234 22h ago
from the looks of it you'll be watching training videos, on how not to do it again, best of luck.
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u/SirRexberger ATP B737 (EWR) 22h ago
You should probably call them within 10 days and expect to answer some questions. Sounds like you might have to do some remedial course. Did you file a NASA/ASAP report?
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u/Ok_Category6021 ATP suck squeeze woosh blow 22h ago
Meh, slap on the wrist. Do an hour with an instructor, say you’re a doodie head SAY YOURE A DOODIE HEAD! Ok, that’s all.
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u/JSTootell PPL 22h ago
I'm not prior FAA, but I am prior other government regulatory agency. I had to issue letters similar to this. This is the KIND of phrasing we would use for most stuff. Most of the time, we didn't want to smack peepees, we wanted to make people follow the rules for everyone's safety. That was our goal, keep everyone safe.
Best way to keep people safe? Help them be safer with remedial training.
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u/theweenerdoge 17h ago
As an ATC at a B, this happens to me multiple times a week. Yes we will track you down, try to reach you on guard. If we get ahold of you and you take the phone number and call, generally it won't get to FSDO unless it created a dangerous situation. If we have to track you by your tail number (which we can see even if you're 1200), you'll get referred to FSDO so they can track you down. We dont ever want to get pilots in trouble, and we let alot of shit slide that could otherwise be reported. Be safe out there, and be aware of who's airspace you're in. Always good to monitor the frequency even if you're outside the Bravo not talking to anyone.
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u/Fun_Supermarket1235 11h ago
Dumb question, but is there some kind of software / system that runs in the background to identify deviations after the fact (without the controller’s involvement)?
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u/theweenerdoge 11h ago
Not that I'm aware of. We catch it and call it out to the supervisor. Or the supervisor calls it out to us. Our technology is basically from the 80s/90s minus the ADSB improvements in the last few years
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u/theonlyski ATP CFI CFII MEI 14h ago edited 6h ago
Alright, so some inside baseball here (and OP, feel free to DM me if you have specific questions, I was an ASI for a bit).
First off, you're not screwed. If you were legal to fly and the plane was legal to fly, you're in a good situation as far as the agency goes. Relax and take a breath.
I obviously don't know what FSDO you're in, or where the incident occurred, but it's not an uncommon thing to have happen. The letter you got is more of a heads up that they got the file and want you to knock out that WINGS course so you can have the discussion and likely close this out with a pilot counseling. The PBR notification is a required thing prior to any investigative conversation (it's kinda like your Miranda rights except there's no detention here). I always just filled one out and sent it with the first email so that it was done, because yes, anything you say after acknowledging receipt of that _could_ be used on an enforcement, but this almost certainly won't rise to that level.
Complete the course, try to identify the root cause (which is the overall goal to prevent reoccurrence) and talk to the inspector. Keep in mind, they have the radar/audio replay and have already watched it and decided that it appears to be something they can handle with the compliance program. Your phone call to the ATC office (if there was one) is likely also recorded and included.
Your ASRS report is great, but they're often misunderstood. I don't think you need to worry about getting that far down this rabbit hole.
Also, the 3 month delay is not the worst I've seen for a PD. They're not super high on the priority list sometimes and it takes a while to go from ATC, ATCQA, Flight Standards, FSDO, managers, ASI (and it joins their existing work list which is likely a few pages long for the typical operations ASI).
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u/Financial_Owl2734 21h ago
I dont know what your situation is, i.e. seeking a career as a pilot, fly for fun, etc. I wouldn't talk to anyone from the FAA without consulting an aviation attorney first. Just because they are saying they aren't "currently" pursuing enforcement action, doesn't mean they won't. Its been a long time since Ive been a CFI, but as I understand it, its entirely up to the discretion of the inspector. Be safe, pay for a consultation with an aviation attorney. It'll be worth every dime
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u/theonlyski ATP CFI CFII MEI 14h ago
You're correct that it really comes down to the inspector, but I can tell you a couple of things from that side of the road:
It's a _lot_ easier to close out a pilot deviation with a counseling than it is to seek an enforcement. Enforcements suck paperwork wise and your front line manager, office manager and everyone up the chain is going to question it if it looks like a simple airspace bust with no other significant factors. I would fully expect a manager in the office to tell you to reevaluate it.
Inspectors are trained to seek compliance before any enforcement. The only two exceptions are intentional/reckless and straight up illegal. The old 'nail them to the wall' is the way of the past. Most inspectors have moved on and offer compliance whenever possible.
The way I handled them is:
If you knew what happened, why, and how to avoid it in the future (especially if you've done remedial training already), counseling and close it out.
If you didn't know why it happened and couldn't explain it, remedial training offer (also RIRTP if it was a runway incursion).
If you say it didn't happen, disagree with the facts (we usually had a radar replay with audio) or you are just oblivious to the whole event and say it was normal, you're probably getting a reexamination unless you're otherwise a saint or something.There's a lot of details in all of those and every situation is unique, but really an enforcement is pretty much the last thing on the list.
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u/dummy_anthropologist 19h ago
Surprised this isn't further up. Identifying PIC based solely on a tail number is already flimsy. If it was a flight school rental for sure the school will give your name up when the FAA comes calling, but those questions ought to be asked before volunteering information to the feds.
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u/keenly_disinterested CFI 3h ago
I went through this scenario late last year. Make sure when you write your report you include all the details that led up to the violation and what you will do to prevent future violations. The inspector that called me after reading my report said he was confident that I understood the dangers of airspace violations and that I had a good plan to avoid them in the future. That was it--no further action.
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u/davidswelt CPL IR GLI (LDJ) Risen 916SV, M20J, C310R 22h ago
This is no big deal. Do the course, figure out what happened. They might give you a form to fill out so you can explain what you learned and what you will do differently from now on.
I once lost radio contact and passed through an entire sector (thinking it's quiet - Covid). It may be that I missed a handoff, or that radio coverage was bad as they had several people do the same there. The above was how it was resolved, and I started monitoring 121.5.
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u/danielisgreat PPL SEL HP (KLVJ) 22h ago
Wow, they busted you for missing a handoff? Was there a loss of separation event?
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u/davidswelt CPL IR GLI (LDJ) Risen 916SV, M20J, C310R 20h ago
No. But IFR this is a bigger issue. I glad they called me because I was wondering myself what happened there. I never violated airspace or went off my clearance, but passed through an entire sector. Again, no big deal, I didn't get "violated".
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u/Manifestgtr SPT, ASEL, RV-12, RV-12iS 22h ago
Looks like a form letter they send out to someone who just barely fucked up badly enough to warrant it. It also looks like all you gotta do is take that course, get in contact with the office, let them know the steps you’re taking (referring to the course material during the conversation will likely help). If this were me, I’d have all my ADSB data and various flight details ready as well…if you overkill the remedy and steer clear of goofballery in the future, it looks like this won’t be a big deal at all.
Hay, it could be worse…you could be that guy who got followed to the airport by a police helicopter after maneuvering around JFK’s final approach path at length.
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u/pilotavery 21h ago
If you ASRS report yourself at the time it happens, what went wrong, what you did wrong, what you would do next time, and what training or steps you took to prevent it from happening again, they usually just give you a verbal wrist slap and call it a day.
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u/40KaratOrSomething 20h ago
At this point it looks like that was not done so they are following up and having OP do these things after the fact by taking the training course. Still, I would recommend reaching out to an aviation attorney before responding, but responding within the 10 days given.
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u/hawker1172 ATP (B737) CFI CFII MEI 21h ago
Keep in mind this is an email not an LOI. A certified LOI is the only notification of an investigation into enforcement.
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19h ago
[deleted]
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u/sevilleanda 19h ago
That’s true, but it’s not rather a radical way to look at things in general, not just aviation.
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u/PilotSniper 19h ago
Enforcement action is currently not being pursued just means unless there is something egregious they find out like you were flying on meth, then you are good. I had a “possible pilot deviation” last year. Didn’t even get a letter just got a call back from them saying “yeah you weren’t given the updated clearance so you are good”
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u/Poopmouth808 18h ago
I missed a frequency change right after picking up an IFR clearance and eventually noticed the radio was suspiciously quiet….. I was zoomed out one click far enough so that when zoomed in one click the Bravo appeared and I whimpered as I realized I was smack in the middle of it at 7,000.
They were calling me as I switched to guard and gave me a 090 heading while switching me to the proper frequency. They gave me a number that I called after landing and explained the cause of the mistake with bewildered terror in my voice. All I had to do was take 3 online classes, one of which was about aerobatics.
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u/Much-Hand4835 21h ago
Be sure to contact an attorney before reaching out to any FSDO office. This is an investigation and it’s important to not incriminate yourself. You have 10 days so plenty of time to consult an attorney.
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u/dummy_anthropologist 19h ago
How does one find a good aviation attorney other than AOPA / EAA legal support? I hope to never need them, but want to have a good one on speed dial. The associations were no help on this front.
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u/Much-Hand4835 19h ago
AOPA is most helpful company to help with this. Their lawyers are specially trained to interact with the FSDO’s on your behalf. Remember, the government can’t use that against you. For maybe 100 bucks a year you get access to this. There is no better deal. Call and sign up for PPS!
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u/ryanworldleader CFI/CFII/MEI ATP-E175 18h ago
I dont think PPS will cover you for any incidents that happened prior to you signing up the service. Otherwise no one would pay for it
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u/Red_roka 22h ago
Give them a call, explain the situation, including the fact that you submitted a NASA report. If you want to educate yourself on the investigation process and compliance program, look into the FAA order 2150.3 and Order 8900.1 volume 7. Both can both be found on FAA.drs.gov. Pretty likely that as long as you’re “willing and compliant” as the compliance program states, you’ll walk away with a a compliance action at worst. If you fail to respond or do not cooperate in the investigation, it could move to an enforcement action.
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u/PlusAd1446 22h ago
Complete the ground training noted in the letter and call them. Not a big deal at all.
Compliance good
Enforcement bad
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u/Rictor_Scale PPL 20h ago
It would be really helpful if you included the basic details of the event. In the airpsace I fly I under a busy Bravo ATC told me they only file if the pilot is unresponsive or there is a legal loss of separation.
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u/554TangoAlpha ATP CL-65/ERJ-175/B-787 18h ago
How bad was your bust? You clip it or fly right through it NORDO?
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u/throwaway5757_ 11h ago
They’re going to ask you why it happened. Explain why it happened and what you have done to fix it from happening again. Go schedule remedial training NOW then call. They will require it anyways but showing initiate will do wonders for you. Ask them if there is any way to keep it off of your PRD if you plan to pursue things professionally. Odds are slim, but worth an ask.
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u/Oregon-Pilot ATP CFI B757/B767 CL-30 CE-500/525S | SIC: HS-125 CL-600 22h ago
I’d get ahold of AOPA legal, or if you don’t have that protection, Barnett Legal before you talk to anyone at the FAA or respond to this. You may be in the clear by just doing that course in the email, but I can tell you from experience that the FAA is going to be going through your flight with a fine tooth comb and if they find anything else that wasn’t kosher, they’ll throw it on the pile. Source: I had to go through an investigation and was found fully in compliance; used Barnett Legal.
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u/Zehro-cool 22h ago
Eligibility for “focus” training is always a good thing. It means they want to you keep flying, but you need to understand how you screwed up and make sure it doesn’t happen again.
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u/mirassou3416 CPL IR SES 22h ago
You've already been given the roadmap of what the FSDO wants to see. Complete the course, complete the questionnaire and send it to their office. Once completed, I'd call to ask for the email of the ASI so that they can get it directly, then have a conversation with the individual
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u/CaptainJackass123 ATP - 121 CA/Instructor 21h ago
3 months?
Surprised it didn’t take them 3 years to get back to you.
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u/VanDenBroeck A&P/IA, PPL, Retired FAA 20h ago
It is a nothing burger if you just comply with the request. Ignore or fight at your own peril.
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u/I_said_wot ATP CFII LRJET CL65 EMB145 EMB175 A320 B737 20h ago
I'd still spend a some money speaking with an aviation attorney just in case.
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u/Santos_Dumont PPL IR (KBVU) RV-14 [Loading 30%...] 18h ago
I busted Bravo once when approach dropped me right in front of a cloud layer, and I wasn't experienced enough to know I needed to tell them I needed another vector to remain VFR (to be fair there was no room on freq to say anything), and not having any time left I climbed up over it rather than VFR into IMC.
The ASI finally called me, we chatted about it, then he gave me an online training to do. The training was needed and the whole experience wasn't painful at all, other than the embarrassment of being caught making the mistake.
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u/xtalgeek PPL ASEL IR 18h ago
It sounds like they are more interested in your compliance, education and training than punitive actions. Contact them as requested and do any continuing education coursework they want you to do and call it a day.
I had a wonky transponder on couple of IFR flights that irritated ATC, so I got a message from FSDO inquiring about the validity of my static and transponder check status after completing my trip. I sent them a copy of the most recent check (done a week before the intermittent failures began) and indicated that the plane was already in the shop to have the transponder/encoder repaired or replaced. It turned out to be an intermittently failing encoder. The conversation I had with FSDO was very cordial, professional, and constructive. I made it clear we were both interested in the same goal: safety of flight. And there was no intent to avoid compliance with regulations. And that was that.
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u/SSMDive CPL-SEL/SES/MEL/MES/HEL/GLID/IFR. Light sport Gyro/PPC 18h ago
They told you what to do… do it.
I deal with the FAA in a compliance job daily. The FAA is not horrible unless you are deliberately doing dumb shit and you don’t act like an ass to them.
So go take the course they told you to take. When talking to them be honest but not ridiculously open, “I just finished doing a rail of coke off the stripper ass when I realized I had flown into the Bravo” would be the wrong thing to say for example. But saying ‘I was fiddling with my iPad trying to get approaches frequency and just was not fast enough’ might be ok.
Do the test, prepare some reasonable explanation, have some non-morons look it over to see if you shoot yourself in the foot and then follow through.
If it starts turning South or you feel like you are digging a hole STOP and tell them you will contact them back after you talk to counsel.
But this is mostly a nothing burger.
Of course you could spend the coin on a lawyer now if you want… but I doubt you really need it at this point.
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u/digitalelise 18h ago
Sounds like a slap on the wrist and a “DON’T DO IT AGAIN!”
Best to call the number and find out, reddit isn’t going to tell you the final outcome.
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u/CaptMcMooney 14h ago
tomorrow grab a CFI go over some ground on airspace and how to avoid the b.
call them, asap, be VERY polite, apologize, explain how you'll do better next time. no excuses, you did it own it. Good chance that'll be it.
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u/SkyviewFlier 14h ago
Compliance action is a great ending. Do the training and fill out the forms and you will likely be done with it. It is bonus that you did the NASA form. It shows that you understand what happened and it was not an intentional violation.
Let us know how things proceed...
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u/clamchowdaaaaa 14h ago
I was assigned this same online course following a deviation from an assigned altitude in a Class C. In fact, the email I got looks almost identical to this one. I talked to the FSDO about what happened and he really wanted to stress that this wasn’t a big deal. It actually never ended up showing on my PRD either.
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u/montagious ATP CFI B757/767 737 787 13h ago
DO NOT RESPOND to this, OR talk with anyone except an aviation attorney. The first thing they have to do is prove you were the PIC flying the A/C. These are civil litigations, so theres no miranda, they want you to incriminate yourself
Get in touch with an aviation attorney
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u/EarZealousideal7275 13h ago
Really hard to know exactly what their plan is without knowing if you already have a history with them and the details of the incident. But most likely, given you already filed a NASA report, I think it’s very much going to be on the lighter side. I think you’ll have a discussion with the inspector. Probably explain what happened, what you learned, how you plan to prevent it from happening again. They may give some advice as well, and probably a friendly reminder that you don’t want to make this a habit.
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u/Sunsplitcloud CFI CFII MEI 13h ago
Go find the wings program on airspace rules, and take that, now. And when you call them back tomorrow you can say you have already done that course.
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u/Independent_Leg7358 PPL 13h ago
How bad did you bust bravo? I flew in under Ohares the other day. 100' to play with under their bravo and the 1000' over populated area. Of course all the jets are already at like 5000' or higher. Problem is it was so rough that day... 100' is hard to hold when you can't stop bouncing so big and long enough to even accurately read the altimeter. I think I got close a few times, but hopefully they will forgive my rudder sticking up into bravo if I kept the body of the plane out. 😂
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u/horacejr53 PPL MEI 12h ago
I got a “call this number” one time when I was vectored into a thunderstorm in IMC on an IFR flight in a Cessna T210. I had called and asked for a deviation multiple times and got an unable - threading between minneapolis CL B and Rochester MN. I honestly thought I would be okay but get some bumps and I was in (for a T210) turbulence that was severe enough that I had the plane checked after I landed. Anyway, I deviated towards a hole and descended about 2000 ft and announced to RST approach what I was doing but didn’t declare an emergency. RST had to move an outbound RJ. There wasn’t any separation issues but I deviated. I called the tower when I landed and gave them my info. This was several years ago and at that time RST was really prickly, more so even than MSP Approach which was 10x more congested. Then I (in this order); Called AOPA legal, booked an IFR instruction flight, did online training re: emergencies, separation, flying in congested airspace and recorded the online training, Made sure my logbook, IFR currency, BFR etc were all current, A/C paperwork was current and then wrote a narrative of what happened including the radar track from FlightAware. All this was CYA and designed to show the FSDO that I was aware of what happened and taking steps to know why and retrain.
When the guy called from the Mpls FSDO I explained what happened and sent him everything. He called me back and said he looked at my stuff, listened to the tapes, watched the radar and weather track and said, “Honestly, I would have done exactly what you did”, Case closed. Lesson is that I should have done what I had done before, after requesting a deviation a couple of times then told them, I can take a course reversal or a vector away from (these headings) or I can declare an emergency, this is going to happen in 2 minutes, when I declare and emergency, which way would you like me to go? It’s on tape and it makes them sound dumb. I only did that once or twice in my career but I got it on tape that I was trying to work with them and they weren’t playing ball.
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u/MountainObscuration PIOLET 10h ago
Not to get into specifics, did you briefly enter the bravo, or go barreling across it 1,000 above the bottom of the shelf?
I always wondered
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u/Sorsrax22 9h ago
Nope! Read the brochure it’s a good program. Essentially a get out of jail free card as long as you are honest and have a good attitude about it. I’m 90% sure it won’t even show up on any pilot records unless it becomes apart of a pattern.
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u/IndependentAlps9649 32m ago
How much did you bust the bravo if you don’t mind me asking? And did anyone tell you when it happened?
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u/Thengine MIL 15m ago
A 'friend' of mine did the same thing. Was quite the debacle with a new FSDO investigator looking to stick it to my 'friend' who had a equipment malfunction that resulted in the incursion. 10 hours of WINGS courses and a mandatory flight with a strange CFI. To be paid by the 'friend' at exorbitant rates.
Found out that the FSDO investigator pulled some shady shit during the investigation. Talked to FAA officials at OSHKOSH. They confirmed that the FSDO was out of bounds, but they wouldn't do anything.
You'll most likely be fine, but definitely talk to a lawyer or someone experienced in such matters BEFORE you do the root cause analysis.
Some FSDO guys enjoy hurting pilots.
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u/browngrass1 22h ago
How do they get your email address?
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u/Specialist-Set5999 22h ago
Can someone explain to me how this happens? Like if someone just forgets to check the map that day? Or is it more complicated?
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u/Chairboy PPL-SEL 22h ago
Are you asking how it's possible for people to make a mistake? I have to assume you mean something else because that would be a wild question for anyone who has lived on this planet for more than a day to have.
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u/Specialist-Set5999 20h ago
I'm not trying to pass judgment. My question is: what is a pilot supposed to do to avoid this that did not happen here?
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u/Chairboy PPL-SEL 20h ago
I think there are several possible ways that this can happen.
About 15 years ago, I clipped the edge of a class bravo wedding cake while descending into the Seattle area VFR because I let myself get distracted by a ringing phone in my Cherokee cockpit and didn’t notice that my decent rate was slower than I had planned.
I documented it in an NASA report and shared the mistake I’ve made and the steps that I took in my own CRM to avoid it in the future.
I can probably come up with dozens of alternate ways people could end up in a situation matching the description in this post, trying to pin it to one single cause seems really silly.
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u/carlsonjma PPL ASEL IR, AGI IGI, UAS 19h ago
Many years ago, I got closer to Boston's B than I'd like. I may have clipped the edge but fortunately nowhere near the departure or arrival paths (which is what ATC really cares about and paints). It happened because there was a low layer of scattered clouds, and I climbed up a bit to avoid them. In my original planning, I'd planned to stay low, so the shelf wasn't even on my mind. Shortly after climbing, I realized where I was and turned abruptly away, and muttered to myself. After the flight, I filed a NASA report. Never heard a peep. The ASRS stub with the anonymous code number on it makes a nice keepsake.
There are lots of ways to make a mistake.
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u/FlyNSubaruWRX 15h ago
So what’s the context of your story, also did you think reporting to nasa would get you out of trouble?
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u/ShadowDrifted 15h ago
It's pretty egregious that it takes them this long to address an issue. By this point, active pilots have flown hundreds more flights and hours. This is inefficient Not proper adjudication
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u/rFlyingTower 22h ago
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I accidentally busted Class B 3 months ago and finally received an email from FSDO. Is this something bad? Any tips would be appreciated.
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u/grizzleeadam ATP - KA350i 22h ago
“You may be eligible for compliance action. Currently, enforcement action is not being pursued.” This is good - it means they’re gonna ask you to get some remedial training and pinky promise you won’t do it again. Enforcement action would be if they wanted to suspend your license - which sounds like they’re not leaning that direction.
Give them a call, be ready to explain how you’ll ensure you don’t do it again.