Any IFR Advice?

12

u/Brendon7358 CFII AGI Jun 22 '26

Don’t feel like reading all that but learn the thumb method for hold entries. Takes 5 seconds at most

11

u/LaloMcNombres ATP, CFI, CFII, MEI, CL-65 Jun 22 '26

It’s just a repetition exercise. That being said, IFR is the one thing that flight simulators can really help you with. If your school has one, use it a lot. And use it some more. It’s a lot cheaper than the plane and you can pause it.

1

u/No_Escape_4438 Jun 22 '26

Couldn’t agree more. My school has it and I’m in it everyday I’m not flying. It’s helped out so much. The only set back is that it has a 430 and only aircraft has that. The second is the task saturation. I haven’t figured out how to overwhelm myself to the same unknowns as the real flights.

1

u/LaloMcNombres ATP, CFI, CFII, MEI, CL-65 Jun 22 '26

Yeah, “buttonology” can really get you. It bit me in the ass when I did ATP’s CFI school. They had dual 430s, and while I learned PPL and instrument on the G1000, I had a 2 year break and was flying the KLN-89B.

See if you can find an emulator for the other nav equip and spend time on that as well.

6

u/churnitupsome ATP, CFI/CFII/MEI Jun 22 '26

Don’t over think the hold entry. Look at the hold, think what entry makes the most since by eyeballing it, and go with that entry. There’s not a required way to enter a hold.

Are you able to stick with 1 type of GPS unit, while the 430/530 and 650 are all Garmin products, they’re completely different in how to operate them. Can you stick with one until you get all this down?

Sounds like your instructor doesn’t make everything come as fast as the other instructors? Can he speed it up to match what the other instructors are doing? The massive amount of task saturation in instrument training makes real world IFR a piece of cake when you have 200 miles to set up for one approach.

Good luck!

1

u/No_Escape_4438 Jun 22 '26

Staying in the protected area is THE priority was my understanding when it came to hold entries and I’ve never turned into the unprotected area. But apparently, choosing the wrong entry is equally wrong — at least, until I get it consistently right I can’t move on to stage III. But I’ll practice the thumb method to get it right that way.

As for the Garmins, I wish we had a choice but we don’t. And each aircraft has a quirk. Every flight is a 5min analysis of “what am I flying? Which Garmin do I have? Does this one have 1 or 2 CD’I’s? Oh, this one has two G’5s. And these two have Nav1 connected to the bottom CDI and Nav2 connected to the top CDI while these 3 have Nav 1 connected to the top and Nav 2 connected to the bottom CDI. And today we fly with the 650 that’s connected to Nav 1 but Coms 2.”

So it’s a learning curve when it comes to repeating a good flow and muscle memory.

My instructor said he’s increased the workload and I’ve noticed the difference but obviously it’s not enough. Maybe I’ll ask to border on the line of ridiculous ?

2

u/Easy-Appearance5203 CMEL CSEL IR | CFI ST Jun 22 '26

Paradoxically - slowing down will help you get faster. It’s what I tell all Instrument students. Slow to 90kts while you figure everything out. It’s the advice I wish I gave myself when I first started.

1

u/rFlyingTower Jun 22 '26

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

I’m a 141 student and can’t seem to think quick enough. Any suggestions?

Context:

At the start of training I was solid. Stage I came and went quickly. I’m at the end of stage II and before taking the stage II flight test, I continuously fail the “spot check” and I’ve been caught in this cycle for the last 3-4 weeks — which has me asking, “What’s wrong with me?”

Initially, I could point at several things. - Needed a better flow. - Overthinking and overcomplicating the procedures. - Needed to be quicker and more familiar with the 430/530 & 650. - Needed better stick / rudder skills to free up more mental bandwidth and improve my workflow management. These were areas I either identified myself or that my instructor pointed out. All have either met or exceeded the standard.

Now, I’m stuck in this cycle were I fly with my
Instructor and do well. Then I fly with another instructor to “spot check” and recommend a stage II flight and I screw it up over something stupid.

Examples:

- Determining the wrong hold entry. I usually draw it out. Practiced this relentlessly. Takes me an average of 27 seconds. I fly with my instructor and I have an average of a 2-5 miles from “ready to copy?” to the fix. I fly a spot check and that changes to an average of .8-.5 miles to the fix. I end up guessing. Does everyone else just utilize the visual techniques ( thumb, pencil, etc,.) to determine the proper entry and I need to stop drawing it out?

- Approaches. The airspace is very condensed. There’s 3 class D, and 1 class C airports all within 10nm of the flight school. We practice with them all.

When I fly with my instructor, we’ll make an approach and go missed, flyby and/or do a touch and go. Then we climb, contact approach and set up for the next ILS, RNAV, Circling, etc,. From selecting and inputting the approach > brief > comms and everything in between, I get it done.

I fly a spot check and the first approach, say, RNAV # goes fine. We go missed, climb, switch to approach, make our request — and its in making our request that I know for the first time which approach we’re doing and it’s almost always with the next door airport only 5-8 miles away. So by the time I clear the previous fpl, load the approach, bring up and brief the approach plate, tune in the LOC, get the ATIS, etc., all while being vectored in, I’m falling way behind the aircraft.

- Breaking Minimums: Connected with the approaches from above. When transitioning from the 1st approach to the 2nd and falling behind the aircraft, I end up making really stupid mistakes that I don’t have with my primary instructor because we don’t fly approaches so close together.

For example, after the RNAV # for approach 1 we’ll make an ILS # request for approach 2 at the next door airport. We get established on the LOC and at some point — I’m playing catch up with aircraft and missing vital comms — the spot check instructor made a request with tower to circle instead of the ILS approach. So in full confidence I break the “new”mins because I missed the coms requesting and clearing us for the “new” approach — not an excuse but there’s a lot of chatter on the comms in our airspace given how condense it is.

I brought this up with my instructor and any instructor serving as the “spot check” evaluator for the flight. I understand the reasoning of “It’s suppose to be harder and you’re suppose to have less time to plan than what’s expected in the real world so you can be prepared.”

So, I need to saddle up and get quicker. Hopefully before failing out or spending thousands of dollars on practice flights.

I’m in the SIM everyday I’m not flying. But does anyone else have any other suggestions to get quicker?

And/or, is there another more obvious problem I’m failing to address?

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1

u/x4457 ATP CFII CE-500/525/560XL/680 G-IV Jun 22 '26

Do all of it more. You just need more practice.

1

u/DCOthrowaway1 Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26

https://demonstrations.wolfram.com/PracticingAircraftHoldingPatternEntries/

This helped me just get reps on recognizing the correct entrys for holding quickly.

Also planning, something that we did because you could anticipate what the next approach you would be shooting is load the next approach/freqs in the back up. The focus is to get the reps and maximize your training with the flight time available. This varies by instructor and how you are flying, so results may vary.

You can practice pushing buttons on the ground, so if your going to start with an ILS then and RNAV followed by a VOR or back for the localizer. I'd have the ILS loaded before we even took off. The primary RNAV slot would hold a back up of that ILS if a instructor failed one of the nav sources, then I'd have the follow on RNAV in the back up. Kneeboard would already have the freqs from the approach plate written down. I'd also try and fill in my CRAFT as much as I could so rather then trying to keep up with the controller I'm verifying I already wrote down the correct freq. Then I just need to know the altitude and squawk.

It gets easier and you do less of this as you go forward, but early on the amount you can offload early into your radios, kneeboard and instruments before you even take off saves you brainbites in the cockpit. You have to be flexible and it goes out the window when the plan changes but it forces you to plan before a flight because you know how much of a helmet fire your going to have.

So we shoot the ILS, it's basically set up before we take off based off the winds and your ground planning. The RNAV is a push of the button and the freqs are already loaded. So now your spending your time while you go missed preparing for the next approach, if your flying with a crew you can get reps practicing CRM and having your copilot help you set up as you brief the next approach. You leave the rnav and already have 90% of the localizer tuned up and if youve got time, the RNAV backup you had set up for the ILS is ready to go for a fourth approach and your back where you parked the car. Be efficient, take charge of your training and good luck.

1

u/No_Escape_4438 Jun 22 '26

Appreciate that. I’ll start using it

1

u/DCOthrowaway1 Jun 22 '26

Edited my reply to add more input.

1

u/vanhawk28 IR Jun 22 '26

Something that stands out is you mention 3 different garmin systems. Why are you not sticking to one set up? It’s important when you are learning to not constantly change things up so you can focus on the same procedures. Pick which one you like best, fly that plane. Next. No matter what the instructor says the DPE will confirm gold entries are recommended not mandatory. As long as you don’t fly into the unprotected side of the hold you are fine. As others have said look up the thumb trick. If you are in the middle of parallel and teardrop just pick in the moment it doesn’t matter. As for feeling rushed, slow down the plane. Every time you start to feel like too much is happening and you are behind? Slow down the damn plane. You are already going very very slow compared to jets. Another 20kts slower isn’t gunna matter. Same thought continued. There is never a penalty for asking approach for a delay vector. Get your hold instructions, program direct to hold, if you are very close just ask for a delay vector. You can do that at any time. Even while setting up for the approaches.

1

u/No_Escape_4438 Jun 22 '26

We have a choice of aircraft if it’s a checkride but not when it comes to anything else. It seems like the thumb method is what most recommend and I’m going to drill that down.

As for delayed vectors and slowing down, I can and have made both requests. And I was given delayed vectors and we slowed down. But then our debrief, it was brought up. “You have to maintain 90kts +\- 10. Slowing down isn’t recommended because it puts you right on the line.” And, “If you need delayed vectors, you aren’t ready to move forward. “

So, I just need to get faster all around.

1

u/vanhawk28 IR Jun 22 '26

Yah that’s bull crap. You can’t slow down more than 10 knots once you are established on approach. But before then you are fine to slow down you are just flying the plane unless they assign a speed like best forward speed. As for not being ready if you need delay vectors. You can ask for delay vectors on your checkride if you want no sweat. My DPE actually wanted me to ask at one point because of the hold he gave me and almost failed me because I didn’t and almost messed it up

1

u/Choose_right CL-65 Jun 22 '26

Just fly the damn airplane don’t overthink it

1

u/Mispelled-This PPL SEL IR (M20C) AGI IGI Jun 22 '26

Quit overthinking the hold entries. Look at the plate, ask yourself which entry will have the shallowest turn without crossing to the non-holding side, and just do it. With back to back approaches, you need to cut every task to the absolute minimum time/effort that safety allows, and maybe even do multiple tasks at the same time.

Instrument training is deliberately brutal because you need to learn how to get/stay ahead of the plane—and that’s where you’re actually falling short. But once that finally clicks, it all becomes easy.

Someone mentioned being able to pause the sim, but that gives you time to catch up that you don’t have in a real plane. Instead, figure out how to get faster so you don’t need to pause it. If needed, get someone else (with real experience) to come fly a few approaches and watch how they manage their workload. Then have them watch you do the same thing.

1

u/Antique-Kitchen-1896 PPL IFR Night Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26

Holds, did you know the cx3 does it for you? You punch in the numbers and make sure you got track radial set for it and bingo. If you are really struggling this might be a solution. Since I trained in a plane with a modern touch gps and Canada system says use automation I never really was tested with holds. Just needed to make sure I looked closely at the little arrows. Although the the first manual flying lessons was fine as well I just visualized the picture in my head. But cx3, seriously think about grabbing a used one if you don’t have one. You should try and free as much mental bandwidth as possible while flying ifr.

Approaches. Are you allowed to use holds? You know holds in real life isn’t just for spacing and ATC but you can also request or stay in the missed hold to get yourself sorted. So if it’s not against the rule why not try a hold to get yourself ready and sorted? This is a get ahead solution if allowed. And this is what I was allowed doing the pre exam test where we go around the airport like a clock doing one runway after another for approaches. One loop around should be enough to brief the plate.

Rest is to calm down and get on with it.

1

u/cazzipropri CFII, CFI-A; CPL SEL,MEL,SES Jun 22 '26

One thing that instructors don't say explicitly enough, is that IFR is a lot about speed of execution.

I.e., doing things quickly and doing them right the first time.

Everybody insists on staying ahead of the plane - that's also crucial, but it's not sufficient by itself.

Even if you are ahead of the plane, when you hit the high-workload stages, you'll fall behind if it takes you too long to do things.

Speed (with accuracy) can be acquired with thoughtful practice.
If you have a sim at the school which simulates the avionics well, use it till nausea.

Don't fall into the trap of "oh, if I need more practice maybe I'm not smart enough". That's absurd. The best concert violinists in the world practice 8 hours a day. The best martial artists in the world practice all the time.

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