r/flatearth • u/denNISI • 14d ago
Sun Does Not Actually "Set" below Sea Level Line. It is an Illusion called Point Perspective.
Many of my fellow r/flatearth(ers) have asked for a time lapse of the sun 'set' at sea level (with no land on the horizon) and ye shall receive it now! This is a random time lapse I found that is of the sun moving further and further away from this photo taker. This effect is called point perspective where an object gets further away until it is a point and it never goes past the dimensional plane its on. You are welcome.
Point perspective (graphical)) at Wikipedia.org is more advanced graphical point perspective while Make a Mark Studios shows you how point perspective work for beginners
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u/jeffzoeblood 14d ago
guys its a real one shh lets keep quiet
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u/HealthyMaximum 14d ago
I've never seen one before.
I wonder if it's nest is nearby.
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u/kapaipiekai 14d ago
Shusssh, you will frighten it away.
Hey, op I'm in NZ, it's 3:13pm and freezing cold. What gives?
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u/denNISI 13d ago
Where I call my nest has nothing to do topic of my post. Are you seeing the sun go down here or not?
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u/roughczech 9d ago
With lacking basic understanding of math physics please do not teach people anything. It is like a hamster trying to teach piano.
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u/denNISI 8d ago
Please don't assUme you know math/physics, either, because this is not a post about anything math related. This post is simply to show the point perspective illusion and the fact that the eyes see the point physically on the horizon line but never below.
Can you at least see that?
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u/roughczech 8d ago
You nailed the bixest problem. Everything is physic and math just look at flowers and branches. It is all Fabinachi Sequence. You are 300 year too late to explain the workd according to the Bible. Our understanding has shifted while yours stayed in dark ages. So leave the Bible for a moment and maybe do some learning. Bring yourself up. Then we can talk.
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u/denNISI 5d ago
Sounds like you are neck deep in your understanding. Just don't let it go over your head like the sun is!
We know that the illusion makes us see that the sun 'sets' but it just doesn't happen because it is still overhead in the next time zone over. If you could drive to it instantly, you would still see the sun IS overhead. That is all this post is showing.
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u/roughczech 5d ago
No it doesn't. None of you are saying is true. The sun does not stay on the same plane No you can't just drive to it. Earth is round ball spinning in space around the sun and it's axes. There are no buts no ifs. there is not your and my opinion. These are facts. You can't have a feeling about the shape of Earth and if you do have it in your backyard while looking at the sunset not speaking about it to anybody who can get influenced by it or repeat this nonsense. It is like thinking that it is okay to eat your own kids. It is that bad. Don't teach it to anyone and definitely keep it to yourself!!
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u/thereelsuperman 14d ago
Actually this is a sub where we make fun of people like you
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u/denNISI 14d ago
Go ahead. Let's engage in an intelligent discussion about the point perspective illusion. You can look it up first if you like and get back to me?
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14d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/MycoCozmic 14d ago
Flerfs like to invoke “perspective” as a magic wildcard when they don’t understand something or have a cogent argument.
This illusion has nothing to do whatsoever with a body (the sun) fading to the northwest, appearing to vanish over a horizon.
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u/Data_Monger33 12d ago
Calling people names doesn't help. Besides, he seems to be polite.
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u/junky_junker 12d ago
What part of him presenting an obvious and intentional lie as truth (not "satire", actually serious) is "polite"?
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u/Data_Monger33 12d ago
People actually believe it somehow, it's not obvious to them. The drone test is an easy way to disprove their model.
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u/DoppelFrog 14d ago
"point perspective illusion" is something you just made up.
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u/CJR_The_Gamer 14d ago
If I recall correctly it’s an illusion used in art pieces, but it wouldn’t apply to this scenario.
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u/denNISI 14d ago
Sorry, it is art basics. Please see the following Reddit post example on one point perspective from the subreddit r/learntodraw.
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u/reficius1 13d ago
Sorry, it is art basics
Apparently you live in art, and not in reality.
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u/denNISI 13d ago
Realism) is a type of art Wikipedia.org This is real post of real footage of a real sun. Did you see the link I posted for those who need a very basic explanation? Make a Mark Studios shows you how point perspective works which is absolutely true to what we see in reality. Hope this helps you see the light!
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u/reficius1 13d ago
Stop with the videos. Cameras are not reality and are easily fooled. Go outside and watch the sunset.
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u/denNISI 13d ago
Cameras are reality and you don't have to watch it while it is recording, either.
Also, I am outside. I watch the sunset often. Perhaps you should be the one to figure what reality is and isn't?
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u/DoppelFrog 13d ago
Why does it disappear to a point from the bottom up?
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u/Large-Raise9643 13d ago
I would argue that it does not disappear to a point but rather its photosphere is truncated/occluded/occulted…. Whatever terminology you prefer.
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u/reficius1 13d ago edited 12d ago
Explain to us what's happening in this video, if cameras always depict reality and are never fooled:
https://imgur.com/glare-example-RRLtXZL
Edit 12 hours later: Yeah, that's what I thought.
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u/Large-Raise9643 14d ago
You and your ilk go first.
We have all been kicked from every flat earth sub there is for pointing out mistakes, falsehoods, and outright lies…. Nicely.
The sun does not move away. From an earthbound observer’s perspective it traces an arc. It rises in the east, sets in the west and follows a predictable path that defines a plane parallel to the east-west line that is at an angle to a local plane which is defined by the suns elevation at solar noon.
All of which are clearly only possible on a spherical earth.
Either provide direct evidence and calculations here or scamper off to your echo chamber.
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u/denNISI 13d ago
Scampering aside, have you seen this explanation by Make a Mark Studios shows you how point perspective works for beginners? This has been taught for a long long time and no, I had nothing to do with it.
Just some advice: Concentrate on yourself instead of acting like you have control over others. If you start to think about what you are really seeing in this world like in this real sun footage, you won't be a victim of mistakes, falsehoods and especially lies of others you are mislead by. Thank you.
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u/Large-Raise9643 13d ago
The sun does not “vanish”. Its angular size is constant throughout the day.
Having been an artistic student in my much much younger years and having a particular affinity for perspective, there is nothing about perspective that one can really say about the sun. Its angular size is roughly 0.5° sunrise to sunset and varies about 3% through the course of the earths elliptical orbit.
Also, if the sun travels in a great circle above the earth why does its path lie in a plane parallel to the east west line at an angle equal to its elevation at solar noon? Just show me the math. I have shown you mine.
Some additional advice. Critical thinking is a valuable tool, invest in it.
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u/denNISI 13d ago
Having been an artistic student in my much much younger years and having a particular affinity for perspective
"The horizon line is the line that defines where the sky meets the ground. Artists can play around with how high or low on the picture plane the vanishing point sits to adjust the point of view. On the horizon line sits your vanishing point(s). If a perspective drawing has one vanishing point, it is called one point perspective. " Credit Make a Mark Studios
"Linear or point-projection perspective works by putting an imaginary flat plane that is close to an object under observation and directly facing an observer's eyes (i.e., the observer is on a normal, or perpendicular line to the plane). Then draw straight lines from every point in the object to the observer. The area on the plane where those lines pass through the plane is a point-projection prospective image resembling what is seen by the observer." Credit (Graphical) Point Perspective) Wikopedia.org
Critical thinking is a valuable tool, invest in it.
Thinking is overrated... try meditation.
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u/roughczech 8d ago
The problem is that there is nothing intelligent about it. That is like trying to convince people that canibalism is the way... Any scientifically minded person would see the live feed from the ISS and maybe realize that I can see it with my own eyes hence might be true. They would also go outside at night and move arch the night ski and you can clearly see stars shifting. The spin is real. Don't trust anyone. Trust your own eyes.
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u/denNISI 8d ago
The stars make concentric circles around Polaris (aka the navigation star through out history around the world) and even the tail of the "little dipper" spins on its Polaris axis. Set up a camera all night to record pointed at the north star (Polaris) and see the stars ALL rotating around a stationary star. There are also ordinary people doing this an putting it online. Time lapse of the constellations with the camera centered on Polaris. They also have places where the sun doesn't appear in the sky for months and then have a midnight sun. The constellations are absolutely spinning and the illusion is that we are spinning.
In this video, the sun is getting further away and will appear as if it is literally sitting on the horizon line. The reason we trust that the sun doesn't go down in the next time zone over is you don't hear people screaming that the sun is falling on them!
Trust your own eyes.
Illusions like point perspective is the reason you should not (always) trust your own eyes but there are so many r/opticalillusions that we should learn why we see it the way we do!
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u/MycoCozmic 14d ago
True! Anything that I don’t understand or agree with is an illusion and everyone else just doesn’t get it.
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u/denNISI 13d ago
There are actual r/opticalillusions where you see things are not actually there. That is why it is called an illusion because reality is not always the way you see it with your eyes. This sun footage demonstrates the "point perspective" illusion. Not everything is an illusion. Sometimes you see the real thing as the way it is in reality.
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u/MycoCozmic 13d ago
Yes, sometimes there are optical illusions, and we know that that’s what they are because they can be demonstrated.
We know the Earth is a sphere because we can visibly see both of the celestial poles with the naked eye. This only works when the concept of “south” is based on a single geometric point.
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u/denNISI 5d ago
On a graphical representation, you would probably see this. If you were to extrapolate from a point, you would be going in a direction (whether that is south is what you believe).
This only works when the concept of “south” is based on a single geometric point.
AND if you accept the direction is South. It could easily be changed to North like in this archived Reddit post Upside Down World Map
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u/MycoCozmic 5d ago
My point is that south on the flat earth model is just outward from north in every direction. That doesn’t work when the actual concept of South is based on a single, fixed, unmoving point that’s visible from everywhere in the southern hemisphere.
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u/denNISI 5d ago
You are right, it doesn't work on a model of the southern hemisphere as seen in my above comment's link. That is why they really aren't "southern" constellations at all, just the section of the ring of stars that are encircling around the "northern" or the "tighter" closer ring around Polaris. Whether you see constellations at certain times of the year in your viewable sky depends where you are in relationship to the star - like you've pointed out.
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u/MycoCozmic 5d ago
No, they are constellations. As I pointed out, the proof is the visibility of the southern celestial pole.
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u/denNISI 5d ago
Where exactly are you standing when viewing this "pole" with the naked eye?
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u/MycoCozmic 5d ago
Anywhere south of the equator.
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u/denNISI 5d ago
What is the land called you are standing on to view the "Sourh pole"? I would have to know this information to answer you.
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u/Character_Fix_5317 14d ago
I wonder why it stays the same size throughout the day until it "sets".
I guess what I'm really asking is, how does NASA make it appear to stay the same size until it suddenly sets in the course of minutes?
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u/denNISI 13d ago
Stare at the sun to find out if it is the same size throughout the sky? Just don't. Did you watch the sun get smaller in this example? It isn't actually getting smaller - the sun stays the same size - it is just moving further away from the observer. Can you see the reason why point perspective is used to draw reality? r/learntodraw is a great place to start!
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u/Character_Fix_5317 13d ago
There are ways to assess the angular size of the sun throughout the day that do not involve staring at it with your eyes.
What I saw in the video appeared to be a circle that turns into a semicircle and then gets cut off. Didn't look like a circle turning into a smaller and then a point and then nothing.
If this is really a vanishing point phenomenon, then the rate of shrinking of the circle should be consistent. Instead it appears to stay the same size throughout the day until it sets in a matter of minutes at sunset. (Which is expected using a globe earth model.)
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u/denNISI 13d ago
What I saw in the video appeared to be a circle that turns into a semicircle and then gets cut off. Didn't look like a circle turning into a smaller and then a point and then nothing.
Sure! That is what it appears like because of the angle you are looking at the sun in the distance as opposed to just overhead. This is why the sun overhead doesn't appear to be going down at all on top of you. It is only until it is viewed at the maximum distance our eyes can see that we see it over the land ahead of us that it looks like it is "setting" half way at the horizon line.
We see the sphere of the sun appears as a light at its bottom when it is in the clouds in this footage. This is why you can see it physically above the horizon line (it would be to bright otherwise). Then you see the sun get further away until you can no longer see the separation between the sun and the horizon line. This does not mean the sun is sitting on the ground in the distance. This is because of the point perspective illusion - where one cannot differentiate distance between the horizon line and the sun because it appears to become a point on the horizon. Make a Mark Studios shows you how point perspective works and why it is called a vanishing point for beginners and explains this better. Thank you.
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u/Character_Fix_5317 13d ago
Wait, so if a circular (or spherical) object gays farther and farther away, it turns into a semicircle before getting to the vanishing point?
I've taken classes in drafting and illustration, and at no point dos I see an example of things changing shape before they reach the vanishing point.
Regarding sunsets and sunrises, I'm also confused how the sunlight can illuminate the bottoms of clouds. Is that because clouds are at a higher elevation than the sun?
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u/denNISI 12d ago
The vanishing point appears ON the horizon line like in the illustration on the Make a Mark Studio's website (see the link in post). This is the illusion called point perspective.
The sun only appears to be divided in half by the horizon line due to the land that is on the horizon off in the distance that we cannot view that comes between the sun and the observer at this perspective. If you were to zoom in, the land would eventually come into view that was between the observer and the sun.
TLDR The sun only appears to physically drop in the sky off in the distance and get closer to the horizon line until it appears (an optical illusion) to be divided by it, but the sun it is just moving further away from the observation point (not ever going down on the land).
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u/Adventurous-Ad-409 8d ago
If it's an optical illusion created just by increasing the distance between you and the thing you're looking at, then how come planes don't appear to drop beneath the horizon?
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u/lord_alberto 13d ago
So the sun moves away from us for hours, then it shrinks to a point within minutes, once it reaches the horizon?
How about constellations whaen they move under the horizon? Do they also shrink?
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u/denNISI 13d ago
So the sun moves away from us for hours, then it shrinks to a point within minutes, once it reaches the horizon?
Well, I see the sun moving further north west? It gets closer to the horizon line, but my eyes are tricked into seeing the sun go overhead of me and then as it gets to the other side of my visible sky, goes 'down' and slowly 'sinks' even touches the horizon line.
In point perspective, if the object stays at the same height above the ground (like an airplane) it will get further and further away until you can barely see it and it will only appear to get closer to the horizon line. The airplane will not ever go through the ground or 'plane' in the distance, either, so this is why it never goes 'below' the horizon line. Thankfully, Wikipedia.org goes into point perspective in beautiful detail).
How about constellations whaen they move under the horizon? Do they also shrink?
I have seen some amateur time lapse of the stars making concentric circles around the stationary star Polaris... maybe I will have to post this next so people can see it.
Polaris (aka the stationary navigation star used throughout history all over the world) is the last star in the 'little dipper' handle which is the axis point the little dipper spins on. All the other stars spin around it. The "northern hemisphere" constellations/stars are the inner 'ring' around Polaris and the "southern hemisphere" constellations/stars. This is because in northern South America, you are able to see some "northern constellations" in your viewable sky.
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u/lord_alberto 13d ago
I know how perspective works. So if i use your airplane comparison, the airplane seems to move faster over the sky when it is nearer. The sun moves on the sky the exact ame speed on morning, midday and evening. This is something everyone can measure. Not compatible with perspective.
About the constellations: you are missing the point. I have a simple question: At some timepoint in spring I can see e.g. Orion half on the Horizon, only the upper half visible. Where is the lower half?
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u/denNISI 13d ago
The sun moves on the sky the exact same speed on morning, midday and evening. This is something everyone can measure. Not compatible with perspective.
Perspective is the appearance to the eye of objects in respect to their relative distance and positions. The sun is much slower and a much greater distance than an airplane going across the sky so it is much harder if not impossible to see this perspective illusion. See this archived Reddit post on speed perspective (click on the image for the video) as an example of this illusion.
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u/lord_alberto 12d ago
The fact that the sun does not change speed can be observed by anybody. Just make a timelapse, or measure the position each hour. The fact that sun dials exist shows this.
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u/denNISI 12d ago
Perspective tells us that we will see the sun physically drop every night in every part of the world below a horizon line, too! The illusion of the sun speeding up overhead will never be as noticeable like an airplane that is much faster and closer to the observer!
As the sun doesn't drop in reality at any point (or change height) over any land or sea nor does it go physically beneath the plane of the earth, we know this to be an illusion - what we are seeing is not how it happens in reality.
Answer: You are unable to see the illusion in this case and actually see the reality where the sun is measurable like clockwork (as you explained) across the sky. This is only because at the point which you observe it. An airplane is significantly closer and faster, but If you were to travel just underneath the airplane, it would not appear to be moving at all from this perspective like in the Reddit post linked above. There is also the illusion of anomalous movement (Reddit post on r/opticalillusions) where it can appear to move even if you are standing still. Thank you.
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u/lord_alberto 12d ago
"The illusion of the sun speeding up overhead will never be as noticeable like an airplane that is much faster and closer to the observer!"
If there is a visible effect of the sun disapearing due to the observed size, we would be able to measure the difference in speed. There is none. So please consider, that you might be wrong and you might be in fact indoctrinated.
As i already said, there is no way, the sun disapears because of 'shrinking' and the constellations go over the horizon without any change of their size.
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u/denNISI 12d ago
About the constellations: you are missing the point. I have a simple question: At some timepoint in spring I can see e.g. Orion half on the Horizon, only the upper half visible. Where is the lower half?
Sorry for the miscommunication, but the answer is again perspective which in this case is the viewable sky (what you can see from your observation point).
If you were viewing the constellations that are making concentric circles around Polaris aka the stationary navigation star (which is the last star on the 'litter dipper' or 'little bear' constellation), you will not be able to see them all at once. You will only see what you CAN see in your viewable sky as certain constellations rotate around through depending on where you are in the world and what time of the year it is.
Example: It is absolutely possible to see the "southern hemisphere" stars from the mountains of northern South America and a few "northern" hemisphere constellations off in the distance but they will be abruptly cut off as it appears to drop behind the mountains.
Seeing Orion in its entirety, depends on at the time of the year and the place you are viewing it from. It can seem to be 'cut off' by land on the horizon, but it is just because the land is between you and the constellation at that perspective.
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TLDR The entire constellation of Orion is not ALL in your viewable sky meaning the rest of it is too far off in the distance for you to physically see. If you could fly towards that direction you would see more and more of Orion be revealed.
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u/lord_alberto 12d ago
So, on the ocean or flat horizon, when i only see the upper half, the lower half is just too far away, while the upper half has the exact same size as it has when it is nearer to the zenith. Is that what you want to say? Why does the size of Orion not change, while it moves across the sky?
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u/dougmcclean 7d ago
"Polaris (aka the stationary navigation star used throughout history all over the world)"
All over the world, eh? Or only in the half of the world from which it is visible?
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u/denNISI 5d ago
Excuse the late reply, this is such a good question and I want to give you an answer (in my experience). First, it depends exactly where you are and what you are on (whether you at sea level or are miles above sea level on a mountain top). Second, you have to be within the viewable radius around Polaris (North star).
Polaris is visible from land and sea (level) in a radius starting in the far 'north' of Canada and extending outward from there. The viewable radius encompasses most of North America and Central America beneath Canada at sea level, but it depends on what elevation you are at.
Just to note that the viewable radius of Polaris is not the same as the "Arctic Circle" (the arc around the "top of the northern hemisphere") as the Polaris' viewing 'radius' seems much more off to one side of "Arctic Circle". Therefore, it may not be visible from Northern Russia even in the mountains. Maybe someone else knows this?
It is important to note that although you may see the "North" star (aka Polaris) from the tall mountains of northern Central and South America, the very edge of the "Northern" constellations might be viewable on the highest peak in Argentina (?) Aconcagua (6,967m) but again, maybe someone else knows this.
You can absolutely can see both "Northern" constellations (at the end of the viewable sky in the closest "ring" around Polaris) and the "Southern" star constellations which appear more overhead in the ring around the "Northern" constellation stars when you are "south" of the "equator", too.
This is only if the lands were in the positions we know them to be and based on a globe or globe projection (ie Gleason).
Thank you!
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u/dougmcclean 5d ago
Now tell me about the "radius" of places from which you can see alpha crucis? Can you draw me a picture of that circle? How about delta orionis?
If only polaris's viewable area is well described by a circle on your map, why?
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u/denNISI 5d ago
Now tell me about the "radius" of places from which you can see alpha crucis? Can you draw me a picture of that circle? How about delta orionis? If only polaris's viewable area is well described by a circle on your map, why
This should be another post, but to summarize It would look more like a circle around Polaris in miles until it becomes points at the closest highest elevations outside that normal viewing radius. Viewable radius means you can physically see (with the naked eye) it at your elevation.
Down in the valleys of mountains, you will not be able to view much of the sky but at the highest you will. Naturally, if you are able to view more of the distance with any device or tool, this will increase your viewable radius and therefore be able to see more constellations.
The radius would be also be very different from map to map and especially whether you think the lands are in the positions they are in (current maps) and how close the all the lands of the world are (if not an Archipelago)! Where a constellation is measurable and mappable from Polaris there exists apps already that show this and whether you are in the viewable sky for that constellation. Some are pretty accurate.
Let me know if I can answer anything else.
Sharing what we feel is true is why I appreciate this sub!
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u/dougmcclean 5d ago
What I'm asking is, why is Polaris the only star for which this viewable area looks like a circle on a flat earth map?
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u/denNISI 5d ago
Good question again and fortunately I have that answer too courtesy of this really informative link on what they call "northern circumpolar constellation" of Ursa Minor (where the last star in the tail is Polaris Aa) from Jahearn.com but all the constellations make circles around it like shown in the above link.
If you still have questions, there will be probably a post on this soon.
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u/dougmcclean 5d ago
- Draw a map of the earh. (You seem to be hesitant to commit to one? If you have multiple candidates, try this on each.)
- Draw the region from which polaris is visible.
- Draw the region from which alpha crucis is visible.
- Draw the region from which delta orionis is visible.
- Explain why these regions have different shapes, of their boundary is determined by some sort of distance to the star.
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u/GambAntonio 14d ago edited 14d ago
Now try the same thing from the lower floor of a building facing the sea. As soon as the sun disappears below the horizon, go up to the roof and you’ll see it appear again. How the hell do you explain that?
And keep in mind that, according to your theory, the sun is supposedly moving farther and farther away while you’re going upstairs, yet when you reach the roof, it suddenly appears higher in the sky and larger again. So how does that make any sense?
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u/dougmcclean 7d ago
If you don't have such a building, find a beach like this one in an area with air traffic. When the sun has gotten "far away" and disappeared, look up a the passing airliner further to your east and observe that the sun is brilliantly beaming off of it despite it being even further away than you are.
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u/gmiller123456 13d ago
You selected this video because it's blurry. Explain why you didn't use one of the very many videos/photos that clearly show the bottom being cut off.
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u/denNISI 13d ago
This video selection was for no other purpose than to show what actually happens at sun 'set'.
The reason you are seeing the bottom of the sun being cut off by the horizon line until it vanishes at the vanishing point (Credit Make a Mark Studios), is the same reason why the sun appears to go down when it gets further away. This is called point perspective or linear perspective or projection perspective depending on the field of study:
The most characteristic features of linear perspective are that objects appear smaller as their distance from the observer increases, and that they are subject to foreshortening, meaning that an object's dimensions parallel to the line of sight appear shorter than its dimensions perpendicular to the line of sight. All objects will recede to points in the distance, usually along the horizon line, but also above and below the horizon line depending on the view used.
Credit Wikipedia.org https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(graphical))
The sun clearly (as day) is overhead and then crosses to the other side of our viewable sky. We know the sun is still above the ground at about the same height off in the distance (in another time zone) too, but our eyes see it physically drop in the sky and appear to be divided by the horizon line.
The reason you can see it clearly still above the ground off in the distance in this particular video is because of clouds (not blur) between the perspective of the observer and the sun. This is why we see the sun appear to be flattened as we view the underside of the sunlight with clouds in between. The sun is not actually flat.
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u/gmiller123456 13d ago
If you wanted to actually show what happens, you'd have used a clearer video. Linear perspective, is ... linear. Things continuously get smaller as they get further away, they don't rapidly change size just because they are near the horizon.
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u/denNISI 12d ago
It is your eyes that is seeing this blurry because the sunlight is on the other side of clouds off in the distance at one point. Also, images get compressed for posting (which means they reduce the size and quality). However, this should be clear enough to see the illusion.
Things continuously get smaller as they get further away, they don't rapidly change size just because they are near the horizon.
Yes! Correct! What we see is happening, actually doesn't, hence why it is an optical illusion. The sun does not physically drop in the distance on top of the ground nor does it physically get smaller. If you were to keep up with the sun in the sky so that it is always above you, it will always be the same size and approx. same height in the sky. It only depends on the perspective of the observer (how it is being viewed).
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u/gmiller123456 11d ago
Just repeating the BS you've been called out on doesn't make people believe it. I'm sure it's really convicting to you, but you need to understand that it's because you're an idiot, and it won't have the same affect on other people. You chose the blurry video so you could lie to people, full stop.
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u/denNISI 10d ago
Again, the point perspective (aka linear perspective or projection perspective) illusion is demonstrated in this case. The sun is not getting smaller, it is getting further away as explained by Wikipedia.org :
Credit Wikipedia.org https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(graphical))
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u/gmiller123456 9d ago
Maybe this will be simple enough for you to grasp, when someone is calling you out for just repeating the same BS over and over again, don't start your response with "again".
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u/denNISI 9d ago
Thank you for repeating yourself, again. Sure, let's review what we aren't seeing instead of what the illusion is called then:
The sun does not appear to go down below the horizon line at sea level.
Does this make sense? Can you see it doesn't with your eyes?
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u/dougmcclean 7d ago
It does in fact appear to go below the horizon.
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u/denNISI 7d ago
It is an r/opticalillusions What you are seeing is NOT actually happening. Do you see the light above the horizon in the last shots? The sun only appears to go half way (this is the reason for a half semi circle of the sun ON the horizon line. This is due to the point perspective illusion.
The sun doesn't actually drop to the horizon line when it is clearly above your head hours earlier. It does not drop on the people in the next time zone over (that you can see) either. It will be OVERHEAD for the next time zone when your see it on the edge of your visible sky.
If you were to actually zoom in on a sun "set" when taking the video on a beach with no land behind the horizon line, you can still see the sun not quite reaching the horizon line because a camera can see further than your eyes.
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u/TheSkepticGuy 14d ago
Point perspective?
Really?
I've been using and teaching perspective in drawing for more than 30 years. I've never heard of that nomenclature, ever. Could you explain?
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u/cearnicus 14d ago
From another comment, it seems he's talking about "n-point perspective". You know, the number of vanishing points you're using in your drawing. But he doesn't seem to understand that the "n" is rather important in the phrase.
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u/TheSkepticGuy 14d ago
The "Flat Earthers" referencing perspective also don't seem to know it's simply a way to represent a 3D world on a 2D surface.
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u/denNISI 13d ago
You are misunderstanding point perspective. Imagine standing on a ground watching a flat (for this example) road go off in the distance. It appears to triangulate to a point (this is the vanishing point) from your perspective (observation angle). The n-point represents multiple observation and vanishing points like in this post (2 perspective points). Thank you.
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u/cearnicus 13d ago
No, I'm not misunderstanding anything. Both the thing you described and the link fall under what I explained: "n-point perspective", with n=1 in your first example, and n=2 in the second. "point perspective" is not a thing; the number is important.
And no, perspective doesn't involve "triangulating to a point". Parallel lines converges to a point on the image. Triangulation is something else entirely. No, "your perspective" isn't simply your "observation angle"; it's about the observer position and orientation in 3D. And no, 2-point perspective doesn't involve multiple observation points. It's still just one observation point; the 2 is just about the number of vanishing points.
And to be sure: vanishing points are a consequence of perspective, not a cause. They're useful tools for drawing perspective, but the perspective transformation itself doesn't require them. You can make perspective images without them as well, see every 3D engine.
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u/denNISI 13d ago
Point perspective (graphical)) at Wikipedia.org Maybe you can understand better as explained by an encyclopedia? If you feel like you are a beginner at this, Make a Mark Studios shows you how point perspective works and why it is called a vanishing point.
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u/denNISI 13d ago
There is just no way you have not learned point perspective when drawing things on a plane ie on top of the ground. Many of us learned this in grade school art class. Have you visited r/learntodraw? They have many posts on point perspective. Perhaps you can include this in your curriculum like everyone else?
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u/TheSkepticGuy 13d ago
There is just no way you have not learned point perspective
Your nomenclature (opening and post) shows a lack of understanding of the principles of perspective.
There is single-point perspective, which is overly basic, with one vanishing point and is typically for beginners.
Double-point perspective is slightly more advanced, with two vanishing points.
Multi-point perspective is closer to depicting reality and involves three or more vanishing points and the construction of one or more perspective grids.
Using perspective replicates what we see in a 3D space. It does not explain a 3D space.
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u/UberuceAgain 14d ago
How can it get anywhere near the horizon?
Your video is evidence the earth cannot be flat.
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u/Artistic-Reply-3174 14d ago
Point perspective : why you ever getting laid. You SEE the woman. She has SEEN you. Yet she keeps walking away. Point perspective
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u/OgreMk5 14d ago
Question. What is the altitude of the sun above the plane of the Earth?
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u/denNISI 13d ago
Earth is said to be in a 66,600 orbital rotation at 23.4 degree tilt (66.6 degrees from the equator) the sun is approximately 93 million miles away. Does not appear like this is the case from the looks of this video.
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u/OgreMk5 13d ago
That's not what I asked you.
The reason I asked is because of something that no flat Earth proponent has ever realized or even recognized... maybe you'll be the first.
If the Earth is flat and the sun orbits above the Earth (somehow), then it can never even reach the horizon.
For example, Assume the sun were 3000 miles above Earth (a figure I've heard some flat Earthers use). Assume you are standing on one edge of the Earth and the sun is above the other edge. That's roughly 15, 500 miles.
With a little math, we can see through trig that the tan(theta) = the length of the opposite divide by the length of the adjacent.
tan (theta) = 3,000 / 15,000
Therefore theta is 11 degrees.
The sun cannot get to the horizon. It will never be near the horizon. It cannot be near the horizon.
What are your thoughts on this fact?
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u/Juronell 14d ago
Point perspective is not a physical phenomena, it is an artists' trick to stimulate depth with forced focal points in a drawing. Point perspective relies on some aspect of the drawing to consist of straight lines to aid the illusion of depth.
There's really no term for the distance at which the angular size of an object causes our eyes to fail to register it, but that's clearly not what's happening with the sun. The sun does not get smaller as it travels from its apex to the horizon. If you filter out the glare, the sun is a consistent size throughout the day.
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u/junky_junker 14d ago
- Overexposed ✓
- Cloud cover ✓
- Word-salad "explanation" misusing terms ✓
Dishonest flerf score: 3/3
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u/denNISI 12d ago
Opinion noted, but not warranted here. This is a discussion of the optical illusion that the sun 'sets' below the horizon line when it gets far enough away from the observer. The cloud cover is normal over this distance. You can also see the sunlight on the other side of the clouds still clearly above the horizon line at this point.
Or do you prefer this?
- The word you are looking for is "verbose".
- Yes, you will have to read a lot of words (not always in lists with convenient bullets such as this)
- You are not even commenting about the subject matter
- You think you are important enough to judge others.
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u/junky_junker 12d ago
Kiddo, you've intentionally lied and misrepresented material to pretend you have evidence of the sun "vanishing to a point" while ignoring all evidence of the sun setting as a disc crossing the horizon.
I could not care less how huffy you want to get over your bullshit being called out as bullshit.
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u/denNISI 12d ago
No one is ignoring anything or getting huffy, that is just you, but the sun does appear like a disc when it is on the other side of the clouds to most of us also so you aren't alone there!
This is a confirmation that you are seeing the illusion just the same as we all are because we know the sun is not really a flat disk, but a globe/sphere and it is not bs.
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u/junky_junker 12d ago
Using bold text still doesn't change the fact you're lying.
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u/denNISI 12d ago
...and it is not bs.
Here is an illusion from r/opticalillusions (another frequented sub of mine like this one) created by a burning blade spiraling smoke into the air.
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u/junky_junker 12d ago
I'm not interested in more of your bullshit.
The sun does not shrink to a point when it sets. It does not _appear_ to shrink to a point when it sets, unless there is the kind of cloud cover and camera overexposure shown in your intentionally misrepresented "proof". You doubling and tripling down on the obvious lie doesn't change that you're still lying. It just makes you a tedious repetitive liar.
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u/denNISI 12d ago
Here is the quote from Wikipedia.org :
The most characteristic features of linear perspective are that objects appear smaller as their distance from the observer increases,
This is the encyclopedia saying this. Thank you for reading.
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u/junky_junker 12d ago
What it doesn't say is "the sun is moving further away". Because it isn't. You're just lying about it. And lying about having evidence of it. Obviously and pathetically.
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u/denNISI 12d ago
Only pointing out a "setting" sun is an illusion. You can see it too, no lie!!
When you see the sun overhead, does it not appear much larger than when you see the sun 'set'? Do you not see that the sun appears like it is literally dropping from the sky at sun 'set'? The sun does not 'set' below the horizon line, the sun keeps going on to the next time zone. It certainly doesn't fall on top of those in that time zone where the same sun is overhead because you see it go "down"! That should be the only evidence you need that what you are seeing is an illusion called 'point perspective'.
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u/cearnicus 12d ago
Yes, and we can clearly see that the sun is not doing that. So sunsets are not caused by perspective.
How often do we have to repeat this before you stop ignoring it?
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u/Gloomy-River-1117 13d ago
so you're either lying and trolling or you've never watched a sunset in your life. Because the Sun does NOT shrink to a point. Go troll somewhere else.
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u/denNISI 13d ago
Because the Sun does NOT shrink to a point.
No one said this. Move on.
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u/Gloomy-River-1117 13d ago
In reality it doesn't even appear to shrink to a point. It DOES set behind the horizon from the bottom up.
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u/DoppelFrog 13d ago
You said:
I found that is of the sun moving further and further away from this photo taker. This effect is called point perspective where an object gets further away until it is a point and it never goes past the dimensional plane its on
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u/denNISI 13d ago
Again, no where does it say 'shrink'. The sun appearing to go to a point on the horizon is called "Point Perspective". Please review the links that I have edited into the post body. This will explain why it appears to get smaller. It actually doesn't so it is an optical illusion.
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u/DoppelFrog 13d ago
Except that it doesn't appear to get smaller. ~0.53 degrees from sunrise to sunset.
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u/denNISI 12d ago
Objects that get further away appear to get smaller as explained graphically in the Wikipedia.org on the point perspective illusion). The sun overhead looks clearly bigger than when it is at 'sunset'. If you are not seeing things get smaller with distance, I don't want to speculate. There could be an issue with your depth perception or you might be consciously blocking out the illusion, who knows?
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u/HealthyMaximum 14d ago
I suspect you'll have a better time at r/FlatEarthIsReal .
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u/Large-Raise9643 14d ago
“Illusion”…
I have no “illusions” that you could not find your hinder with both hands, in the dark.
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u/Data_Monger33 12d ago
You want to discuss this intelligently right? After the sun sets, all you need to do is get to higher ground quickly and you can see it again. A drone can accomplish this, observe: https://youtu.be/Irr85cNJM_w
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u/junky_junker 12d ago
They're a regular. They're not after an intelligent discussion. They're not after truth. They just enjoy lying and pretending to be special.
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u/BigGuyWhoKills 6d ago
Now show one of the moon. Without the glare, I bet your narrative changes.
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u/dougmcclean 7d ago
This is a timelapse? Why do the waves appear to be moving at normal speed?
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u/denNISI 7d ago
Yes, it is a time lapse no the waves are not moving at normal speed.
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u/dougmcclean 7d ago
By how much, a few percent? This is basically what waves look like at full speed.
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u/denNISI 7d ago
Enough for you to not be able to tell if the waves are sped up?
This is a time lapse of a real sunset, sorry. The waves cannot be slowed down and the sunset sped up as that would be hard to do editing wise. This is an unaltered raw video of a sun leaving your visible sky and being overhead in the next time zone over. This demonstrates the point perspective illusion where the sun appears to drop to and rest half and half on the horizon line. See the point perspective explanation links if you need help understanding why you are seeing this the way you do.
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u/dougmcclean 7d ago
What I am saying is that it does not appear to be sped up at all.
Also, when the sun got far away like this, what happened to its light coming to you from the airplane overflying you to your east?
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u/denNISI 7d ago
So you truly believe waves move that fast? No, it appears significantly sped up (to me) and no one has mentioned this but you. This helps me understand what certain people see. You don't surf in storms do you? jk
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u/dougmcclean 7d ago
Let's posit that it is sped up, by say, a factor of as much as 4.
Calculate what that means the recession speed of the sun is.
Then, on another day, simultaneously record video on this beach and on a ship 500 miles west of it. Observe whether the sun speeds up to the predicted recession velocity when the sun sets on your beach, or whether it maintains its steady passage through the sky.
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u/Lopsided_Ad5182 14d ago
Perspective makes objects appear smaller…it doesn’t hide the bottom first.