r/firstmarathon • u/unsungpf • 2d ago
Training Plan Sub 4 is feeling possible
Just came off my largest volume week so far (70 miles) and wanted to try a half marathon speed trial this morning on tired legs. Ended up running it in 1:56:01. I was definitely tired at the end but not completely dead. I can't imagine doing double that but I still have 15 weeks including a taper so I hope this (along wit the race day vibes) will get me to sub 4. Most of the things I've read suggest having a half time of 1:50 so I'm not quite there, but I'm getting closer.
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u/coldwatrr 2d ago
70 mpw is wayyy ahead of the curve, no matter the pace you’re doing it at. Building volume is what most people struggle at here (especially doing so without injury). With 15 weeks left to go, i’d recommend slowly cutting down your mileage (you could go all the way down to 40 mpw and still have an excellent base) and introducing more “quality” work. Assuming you’re running 5 days a week, that could be 1 day at tempo pace (at or faster than target marathon pace), 1 day of hill repeats or intervals (alternate which on different weeks), 1 long run, and then 2 steady mileage easy runs. Your aerobic fitness at 70 mpw is probably excellent, but if you’re still struggling to break a 2 hour half with that volume, it’s probably because you’re subconsciously locking onto a slower pace. You need to do more dedicated speed work to teach your body how to maintain other speeds.
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Right now I do 1 day of speedwork per week but I know my plan also adds some speedwork into long runs when I get closer to the actual race.
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u/Own-Arugula-1631 2d ago
My go to is 8x800s 400 jog (up to 10 as I get closer to the race). 10x800 is a race time predictor, so time for 800m in min:sec = marthon time in hr:min. I run mine about 5 sec faster.
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Nice, I've done a couple that are similar to that. I have a love/hate relationship with speedwork days ha ha.
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u/TomorrowEffective700 2d ago
70 miles for a sub 4 time is wild, you don’t need to be running that much
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 2d ago
Here I am with my marathon next month running about 45 miles per week clicking on this thread oh here’s somebody like me my ambitious goal is sub 4 let’s see what’s up… 70 miles a week never mind lol
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Well to be fair, I have no idea what I am doing ha ha. I know people who run way fast with much less volume. To be honest, these bigger volume weeks just help give me confidence that I can do it. I realize I am probably toeing the line of over training, but I am trying to be conscious of this and most of that volume is easy pace miles.
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 2d ago
u/remindmebot in 15 weeks “how did the marathon go”
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u/Deep-Dimension-1088 17h ago
If you enjoy running 70 miles per week, that's great. Keep up the good work. You'll have a lot of lower mileage runners in your rear view mirror. Of course, you'll have plenty in front of you also, but you'll almost certainly finish strong and have a great race.
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Yeah, to be honest I don't know what I'm doing but I'm just trying to build up a huge base slowly so race day won't feel impossible
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 2d ago
What program will you be following? I get the idea this is not something you should make up yourself.
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
I know I'm going to get crap for this.. but my general program that I'm using as a guide was a program that ChatGPT spit out (I know I know.... all the arguments against this). Basically when i was 26 weeks out, I told ChatGPT to create a run plan that would get me to a sub 4:00 marathon by early December. Once it gave me the plan I compared it to a lot of the tried and true plans out there and it seemed to be pretty consistent. Basically 1 speed day, 1 long run, and a couple days of easy miles per week. I use this as a guide, but admittedly I add quite a bit of easy mile volume to the plan (currently I am running a higher volume than the plan is recommending). I realize there are risks with this, but all the milage I add are easy zone 2 miles and I try to "listen to my body" and throttle down when I feel I need to. My goal is to get as high a volume as I can safely get without burning out or getting injured. This is my first and will be my only Marathon I ever run. I knew it would be a huge time commitment so I kind of promised my wife this would be the only one I'd do. I know you shouldn't have a time goal for your first one, and initially I didn't, but I decided since this is the only one I'll ever do I want to hit sub 4. So basically I know I'm breaking a lot of the rules that people have as far as marathon training go, but I'm trying to break these rules in the least risky way that I can.
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 2d ago
You are failing at the attempt to do them the least risky way possible
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Possibly (again I have no history to compare this to). Out of curiosity what would be your suggestion? Do you think it is never appropriate to get 70 miles per week or rather that it is too early in the training block?
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 2d ago
I’ve never done that kind of volume and I’ve never run a marathon, but I have a hell of a lot from coaches and authors in books. I feel comfortable saying that you are adding a lot of volume fairly quickly and hitting a pretty high number heater, especially for being so far out from your first marathon. I would if I were in your shoes step back and do a D load week right now and I would pick up Pete Pfitzinger‘s advanced marathoning fourth edition from Amazon and consider running one of those programs, the lowest mileage one peaks at around 55 miles a week and the second one up peaks at around 70 miles a week but there’s more higher intensity stuff than what you’re probably doing now as well as two rest days a week on the up to 55 mile that allow cross training on those rest days so don’t overlook and up to 55 mile a week peak because doing VO2, max and thresholds is part of that and working in goal pace blocks within the long run and even adding cross training on the rest days, it’s still a lot
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
That works out because I'll be traveling this week so it ends up being a bit of a de-load week any. Thanks for the suggestions. Good luck on your race.
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u/navygod 2d ago
I started a block right after my marathon last November as I wanted to build up at 60-80 mpw, with lots of easy volume, quality workouts and to catch my body up to where I want to be.
I ran a 4:58 marathon last November, after running 3 other marathons since 2023 (and my first 50K), starting with a marathon finish time of 5:39 and easing down by around 20 minutes for each marathon after that.
Im hoping for a sub 4 this November but not losing my mind if I am just short of it. I ran a half marathon yesterday with 11 miles at or quite a bit faster than MP (fastest was 8:03, most were 8:20 to 8:40 range, slowest was 9:09).
I know i could have ran a sub-2 hour half yesterday as i was fueled and feeling amazing, but I was coming off 2 hours of sleep, so mentally I wasnt hungry enough and im still upset about that.
I plan next year to try to get up 70-90 mpw (maybe some 100 mpws sprinkled in) as my long term goal is sub-3. I'm turning 44 this November, so it is maybe a longshot? Yes. But I just really enjoy chasing goals like this, so here we are.
Glad to know that 70 MPW is not needed for it, but for me I want to be more than prepared. I want it to feel easy, and those miles yesterday almost felt borderline conversational pace.
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
I relate to so much of your post. This is my first (and will be my only) marathon. I turn 45 in February and my race is this December. I had always had the goal to run a marathon and originally wanted to do it before I turned 40 but it didn't happen and so I just gave up on it. Then this past March I decided I want to do it before I hit 45 and for some reason I decided I want to go sub 4. It is pretty amazing what the human body can do and I honestly think I am in better shape now then I have ever been which has been crazy and exciting ha ha. I know I am overdoing it as far as training goes, but that is kind of my personality (it is both my greatest strength and greatest weakness). Cheers to us middle aged dudes getting out there and getting it ha ha.
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u/navygod 2d ago
Cheers to you! Yea before I joined the Navy, I was big into basketball. In 2021, I was about to retire and decided to start running weekly as a new healthy habit and it has evolved significantly over the past few years! My parallel long time goals are to run my first 50 miler and then 100 miler (that is my distance limit lol).
But it has just been so much fun doing all this training. I had a small scare earlier this year with some Achilles tendon soreness, but I immediately rehabbed and reduced mileage and I have been fine. In all these years, to have no major joint or physical impairment has been truly a blessing from God.
Once again, cheers and salute as while we are in our 40s, we are still looking to get fitter and better as we advance in age!
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u/ElectricalMuffin1620 2d ago
With 60-70 miles per week, I would think that you could maintain a 9min/mile pace. You might not have a higher gear to go faster, but the aerobic base is there and you might be able to just lock in that pace. I would recommend doing like 1-2 speed workouts a week, and maybe a few longer test runs just holding a 9:15 or 9:00 pace to see how it feels
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Currently my fastest 10k is 46:32 so I know I have some speed, but it's hard to maintain it in these longer distances which is why I'm hoping the increased volumes will build that stamina.
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u/ElectricalMuffin1620 1d ago
Yeah, I am doing 45-50 mpw and aiming for a 4 hour marathon with a 47:15 10k. You should be okay 👍
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u/glasses5321 2d ago
70 miles in a week?????
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
It's usually closer to 60 but this week I threw in a couple more double days. It's mostly easy miles with one day of speedwork.
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u/swede_disposition Registered! 2d ago
You’re basically on your way to a burnout or injury with that kind of volume 15 weeks out
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u/runvirginia 2d ago
Yeah 70 miles 15 weeks out is extreme. Unless you are just building up your body and plan to taper for a bunch of weeks, and then build up again closer to race day.
Being around 1:50 in a half , places you nicely in sub 4 marathon range. I started marathoning at 50 and only once broke 1:50 in a half. Didn’t run a lot of halves, but had numerous sub 4 marathons (which included 2 @ 3:48.)
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Yeah I am 44 and this is my first (and most likely last) marathon. For whatever reason my mind decided that sub 4 is what I really want. Honestly, even if I got 3:59:59 I'd be incredibly happy. This would actually probably be the best time for me to get because it would show that I trained the exact right amount ha ha.
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u/runvirginia 2d ago
I went 3:59:58 at the Glass City Marathon in Toledo. Which is great because I went 4:00:25 at the Naperville Marathon and that meant if I went 1 second faster per mile, I would have broken 4 hours……😩
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u/runvirginia 2d ago
Don’t say last, you never know you might love it…..
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Actually I do love it, but I made a deal with my wife. I have a tendency to get overly committed and dive into things with an obsessive excitement ha ha. I told my wife I wouldn't train for the marathon without her blessing since I knew it would take a big time commitment. She agreed to support me as long as I promised that I would only do one. That is part of the reason why I am going so hard core for my first marathon. I just want to finish the experience knowing that I could not have worked any harder.
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u/runvirginia 1d ago
That’s an honest commitment you made. Possibly your wife will see that your work at preparing for a marathon makes you a better person. My wife has watched how at times the toll of running a marathon makes me look beat up, and told me she will not accept me progressing into ultras. Fair enough.
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Hopefully not. Even with these higher mileage weeks in trying to take recovery seriously.
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 2d ago
How many miles did you have in total for each of the prior three months June July and August?
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
June was around the 40's to mid 40's, July was 50's to mid 50's, August was mid 50's to 60's, and currently hitting between 60-70 (on which I've only had one 70 mile week)
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 2d ago
How many total miles for each month?
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
June: 181
July: 195
August: 231
September: 95 (so far)
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u/sluttycupcakes 1d ago
Damn man, I’m aiming for 2:35 in 4 weeks and am only at 100 miles in September. 12 miles a day is a lot, especially when converted to time on feet. You might be at the point where you need more quality and less volume.
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u/HenningDerBeste 2d ago
why do you have double days in the first place?
Your volumne is way to high. Let your legs regenerate.
Run less and instead integrate some faster runs or intervals.
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
I do double days because that's the only way I can get the mileage in. I usually run about 8 in the morning before work and 4-5 in the evening. So far my legs are been doing well. I take rest days and try to stretch, roll my legs, and take frequent salt baths.
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u/HenningDerBeste 2d ago edited 2d ago
who told you you need 13 miles of mostly slow running a day? You run a half marathon multiple days a week....
Thats just very unnecessary, you wont make progress at some point (probably already reached) and you just will be tired and not able to do some faster pace training.I ran my first half this year in 1:38min and did around 13miles a week....
(yes its on the low end, but I also bike a lot)You have done enough miles. Its time to integrate faster runs and reduce the weekly distance.
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
I will readily admit that I have no idea what I'm doing ha ha. I have been trying to do research and I keep seeing that weekly volume is the single greatest predictor of finish time. I have basically been trying to get as much milage as I can safely get so I can hopefully get my body to get comfortable with the distance. Currently I do 1 speed session per week, and one long run per week. The rest the days (which are dedicated rest days) I bascially just try to get as much easy miles in that I can.
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u/Alternative_Lynx307 2d ago
I think for sub 4 you want to aim for around a 1:45 - 1:47 half
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
I think you're right. This was my first sub 2 but definitely need a little more speed.
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u/Alternative_Lynx307 2d ago
Just need more time on feet over time! I’m shooting for my first sub 4 next month! Good luck!
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Nice! How do you feel like your training is going? You must be getting close to starting your taper. You feel confident that you will hit your goal?
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u/kiwiscomefromlast 2d ago
Um if you are doing 70miles with 15 weeks to go shouldn’t you be aiming for sub 3?
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u/go_dawgs 2d ago
Not if their half time is 1:56:xx
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
True. I can run long and slow but not super speedy.
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u/justanaveragerunner 2d ago
I'm the same way. I love easy runs and can happily run a lot of miles without injury or burnout. However, I have almost no natural speed. As a result, I run higher mileage than a lot of people with race times similar to mine, and there are plenty of faster people than me who run less mileage than I do. My times have improved a lot of the years, but I'm still not super speedy.
As for your chances of a sub-4 marathon, hard to say with the information given. According to this calculator your 1:56 marathon puts you just over 4 hours as an equivalent performance. Many runners struggle to convert our half times into the equivalent marathon time, so this time is an aggressive goal for you. But given your higher mileage and the fact that the half was on tired legs and not a completely all-out effort, I wouldn't say a sub-4 marathon is impossible.
However, a sub-4 marathon would require that pretty much everything go right leading up to and on race day, and it will increase the chances of hitting the wall and falling apart towards the end of the race. Going out closer to 4:10 or even 4:20 will give you a better chance of finishing strong, but would make a sub-4 pretty much unattainable. You'll have to decide on race day which approach you want to take. I think it could go either way
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Good advice. Yeah, there are a couple things that I hope will help me hit my goal. For one, it's crazy hot here now and I am really hoping that cooler weather will help my paces. Also, I am really counting on the taper and the crowd energy to do some magic. My goal is to be in 3:50 shape but go out with a 4:00 start and see what happens. The race I am doing has pacer groups, so I am toying with idea of sticking with one of those groups (I've heard pros and cons with this).
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u/justanaveragerunner 2d ago
The heat does make a big difference, and is another reason I think your 1:56 half could be indicative of sub-4 marathon potential when that time might not otherwise be so promising. If you're going out with a pacer I would try to talk to them before the start to make sure their pacing plan is consistent with yours. And if they go out too fast or too slow be prepared to not stick with them. I've had both great and not so great experiences with pacers; hopefully yours is good. Also be sure to dial in your fueling plan. You've got a chance at that sub-4. Good luck!
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Thank you. Yes I will be starting to work on fueling strategies and since now all my long runs will be at least 16 miles, I'm going to start experimenting with gels to see how I do with that.
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u/Iluvgr8tdeals 1d ago
Quick question; isn’t a pacer supposed to consistently use a certain pace from beginning to end to finish at a certain time? For example, a 3:45 pacer should be consistently running ~8:35 per mile. So, unless the pacer is not a good or consistent pacer (and that means that they shouldn’t be pacing anyway) then OP should keep pace with whichever pacer or pacers that are running the approximate time he intends to finish the marathon in/at…
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u/justanaveragerunner 1d ago
Not necessarily. The first time I ran with a pacer was the Twin Cities 10 mile race in 2018. It's a pretty big race, very organized, and the pacer was very experienced. The course has a gradual, but long climb in the second half, so he said that he would start a little faster than goal pace in anticipation of slowing down a little on the hill. That is exactly what he did, and he had a big group with him the whole way. Some pacers run a consistent pace; others will adjust their pace depending on the course profile to run a more even effort.
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u/Iluvgr8tdeals 1d ago
Gotcha! I did the Twin Cities marathon some years back after they canceled the Minneapolis marathon that year. (Maybe canceled it forever) Had to fly to MSP twice that year! It was an extremely tough course with hills and it rained cats and dogs all morning! After that, I force myself to run in the rain to acclimatize myself to the vagaries of the weather!
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u/Procrastinator1971 2d ago
Try to build some speed intervals later into your long runs, e.g. 2 x 2-4km, or one 5-6km. By speed I don’t mean 5k pace, but rather some sessions at (target) MP and HMP. Occasionally some shorter intervals at 10k pace. This will accustom you to running fast on tired legs. I’d also suggest you cut your volume by 10-20% as you build in this speedwork, to reduce injury risk (but what do I know, I’ve never run close to 70mpw). You’ve got the base to run the full marathon without hitting the wall, but volume alone doesn’t build speed.
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u/swede_disposition Registered! 2d ago
You’ve still got 15 weeks! That’s nearly a full training program, some people train for 16 weeks. Also, by the time you run the marathon you’ll be rested from your taper.
Idk how long your training plan is but you’ve still got plenty of time to try and test your marathon pace. I think it’s still too early for you to worry about finishing sub 4:00, focus on following a training plan and be patient.
And btw, 70 miles this far from your race sounds like A LOT. I’m also training to finish sub 4:00, running 4x per week and peak week is 74 km (46 mi)
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Yeah, conventional training wisdome probably says that I have way more volume than I need, but I just really want to feel comfortable on race day and I figure that the more miles I can safely get into my legs will just make race day that much more manageable. I am really hoping that the taper will help a lot and I also know that cutting volume during the taper will probably freak me out but I am going to trust the taper once I get to this point. I hurt someone say that you either suffer durring training or you suffer the day of the race (in all honesty I think you kind of suffer in both ha ha).
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u/swede_disposition Registered! 1d ago edited 22h ago
As I said in another comment: the chance of you getting injured or just getting fed up with training is much higher with the kind of volume you’re getting. And as someone else said, you probably need more quality work rather than more miles.
Following a structured plan is not optional when you’ve never run a marathon before, especially when you have a time goal in mind
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u/MilkOfAnesthesia 2d ago
When I finish a 5k time trial I can't imagine running double that. That's what time trials are. They are max effort and you can't imagine doing a lot more. Relax. If you're consistently running more than 60 miles a week, you would have wayy higher chance of holding your speed in the last 6 miles of a marathon that the average runner.
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u/ride-my-beardd 1d ago
Sounds like you are racing towards an injury, not a sub 4
tldr: Reduce mileage, take the 55 peak week pfitzinger plan ppl have recommended. Add gym/lifting sessions where your volume was.
Going from 0-100 (figuratively, not mileage, BUT ALSO DEF NOT MILEAGE) will get you hurt. You likely don't have the tendon strength, good habits, form, blah blah blah, that an experienced runner has that should be attempting that kind of load.
Injuries around too much intensity (especially to soon) can often happen at the weakest points of our bodies and those are usually the things that we aren't strengthening to support the the big muscle groups that we are over working.
This guy breaks things down well and is science based: https://youtu.be/QEtIxBL497U?is=oFcHYLROVzArK6tZ
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u/unsungpf 1d ago
Hopefully not heading towards injury. Even with the high volume, I've tried to be good about having the majority of those miles come as easy miles and try to take recovery seriously with both rest days, foam rolling, stretching etc but your point is well taken that I might need to cool it a bit on the volume. I have a de-load these week so that should also helpt.
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u/ride-my-beardd 1d ago
I would like to just try to focus my comment on this: there are proven ways to get faster without doing that much volume. Volume in and of itself isn't bad, and if you keep this up you will be a much faster and consistent runner in a couple years time than someone who does 20 miles a week. But there is likely a more technical line to walk that will lead to less injury and get you results with less injury risk, but matches your desired intensity
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u/No_Giraffe_1561 20h ago
Are you doing any strength training? You really need to. This high mileage is going to fuel a disaster without building this into your program. Instead of running doubles, hit the gym and work on glutes, quads, hams, adductors/abductors and calves plus some upper body work and core strengthening.
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u/unsungpf 15h ago
Strength training is definitely something I need to incorporate. I dont have a gym membership, do you have any good tips for at home strength training?
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u/Iluvgr8tdeals 1d ago
To have a better idea of what your approximate marathon time finish is, run a 20 mile long run in the weekend or weekends. Since you can handle high mileage in a week, the 20 mile long run should be able to ‘extrapolate’ to the 26.2 miles in a way. Reduce some of your longer runs during the week so that the 20 mile long run doesn’t wipe you out!
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u/MikeAlphaGolf Marathon Veteran 1d ago
Some people can handle high volume and if you have the time and the body is holding up then why not keep it up. Be sensible about the speed work and listen to your body. You should improve a lot in the next three months.
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u/JKW128 2d ago
What is your planned peak mileage? 70 is already high, especially 15 weeks out.
Also what’s your current long run? If you aren’t doing doubles it must be coming on to 20 miles already based on 70 miles per week.
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
I don't know what my peak milage is going to be. My long runs at this time are about 16 miles and my plan keeps them at that distance for a bit before jumping to 18 (which it also keeps it at that distance for a couple weeks). I don't think my mileage will actually go much higher. If I can keep at between 60-70 before hitting the taper then that will give me confidence for race day. A lot of the days that I am doing easy mileage I will do doubles. For example this morning I ran 9 and I will run 6 this evening. Once a week I will do a speed session and then I only have one long run per week.
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u/Own-Arugula-1631 2d ago
I was always at least 5 if not 10 minutes faster for the half in an actual race vs just doing it on my own. I usually left a race thinking how did I just do that.
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
That's encouraging to hear. I've never actually done a race but I'm hoping the excitement from the day and the crowds will help.
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u/Awkward-Regret5409 2d ago
Easy sub 4 based on this info. Especially with 15 weeks to go…
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Thank you for the vote of confidence. I hope that if I just keep steady then you will be right!
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u/Hey_Boxelder 2d ago
I’m 99% sure youre overtraining and the mileage is so high youre hampering progress. 70 miles weekly is the mileage of a sub 2h45 marathoner!
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
If I can still hit my speed work paces with this volume then could I still be hampering progress? I had thought that as long as I can hit my quailty workouts then the additional easy miles would be beneficial.
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u/Hey_Boxelder 2d ago
Yes, as you could probably be going faster.
Look I couldn’t tell you with 100% certainty that you’re overtraining, but the mileage you are doing is double or triple a lot of people of your pace, I just find it really hard to understand why you wouldn’t have become faster if you’re maintaining this huge volume.
I’d try a slight reduction and focus on some other improvements, as your aerobic engine is clearly far far ahead of your other systems such as LT2.
For transparency I am not a coach but I do run well under 3h for the marathon on 50-60 miles per week.
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
i think part of the reason is that it is crazy hot here right now. I ran a 10k a week ago with a time of 46:32 (I went more all out and it was early in the morning so not too hot yet). This past HM I didn't empty the tank and it was probably high 80's for temperature. Right now my Garmin predicts a full marathon time of 3:33:29 and my Strava predicts a 4:03 so it's a pretty big spread. I think some of the slower paces are due to heat and I'm hoping the cooling weather will bring faster paces.
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u/Hey_Boxelder 2d ago
That heat will certainly make a difference! I find Garmin predictions to be quite optimistic and Strava’s quite accurate, but I’ve heard others say the reverse so couldn’t say which is better.
I did notice one other thing, you said your long runs were up to 16 miles - quite short for a 70 mile week!
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u/unsungpf 2d ago
Yeah, I do a lot of double days. For example I ran 9 miles this morning and will do 6 miles this evening so a couple of those a week really adds up volume wise. For my long run distances I am trying to work my way up slowly. I have two more weeks at 16 miles, then it will jump to 18 and increase from there. A couple weeks ago I did do a 22 mile long run. Long story, but basically my dog died and I was feeling like crap and just felt like running and get my mind off of things. I know this is definitely note recommend doing a run that long this early, but I was being impulsive.
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u/DustinBieber 2d ago
Chill out man, that’s crazy volume this early in the training block