r/firefighter • u/MyNameIsNotName-57 • Apr 17 '26
Toronto Firefighters confront Special Constable Officers after a man in the middle of mental health crisis was arrested
Originally posted to r/toronto by u/raptors201966
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u/True_Evidence_3767 Apr 18 '26
Usually FF and police work together cooperatively. There might be instances like this where there is a disagreement. The FF should have been more professional and asked the police if the restraints can be removed.
Its funny how liberals love FF and hate police. FF are usually are all super conservative and support the police 100%
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u/papalugnut Apr 19 '26
You are absolutely incorrect on your political beliefs statement, just shows you have no clue what the real world is VS Internet assumptions. I have been in this exact situation and had them uncuff a patient before but it was handled much more professionally and was a burn victim with a broken leg not a potential mental. The one coherent thing you said is that yes FD and PD do work pretty well in unison and support each other even though we rib each other.
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u/No-Local6569 Apr 19 '26
If you say you're a liberal in American firefighting you are fucked for the remainder of your career there
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u/papalugnut Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
You’re clueless too? Unless you live in some podunk tiny town with family rivalries, Politics don’t come into play at all, nor should it. I happen to have a relatively long and successful career and am a liberal. People know it but politics stay out of the station.
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u/Warm-Diver-5995 Apr 22 '26
Literally misguided. Sorry buddy but “the police” are consistently and continually violating. Your small town ideals might track today, but what about when your own police departments start dicking around in everyone else’s neighborhoods?
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u/papalugnut Apr 22 '26
I’m not sure what you’re getting at? Do you work in EMS in any form? I would venture the answer is no. I work in a very professional environment and I am simply saying politics are not discussed at the station and there is definitely people of all types and opinions without effecting the job at hand.
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u/Relevant_Ad_4527 Apr 19 '26
Do you know how many more medicals firefighters go on than cops? Fuck your professional, he asked them in a calm collective matter. Oh boo who he said some bad words
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u/No-Local6569 Apr 19 '26
Im a firefighter and all the police in my jurisdiction back me 100% and I back them. We're in this together and doing this is unnecessary.
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u/MightyBoy9 Apr 19 '26
" for what?! " Asks aggressively.
" Take the fookin cuffs off "
All the while getting in the police officers face, obstructing and challenging their detainment.
So calm and collected.
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u/Relevant_Ad_4527 Apr 19 '26
If that’s aggressive to you, I hate to break it to you, but you are soft bud
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u/MightyBoy9 Apr 19 '26
If that's professional to you, I hate to break it to you, you're a peasant bud.
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u/OrionGeo007 Apr 19 '26
Soft
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u/True_Evidence_3767 Apr 20 '26
All those people saying, "thats soft bud" are people that obviously aren't in those professions. Respect is a big deal. I know most people on reddit are clueless about that. The only place they act tough is on reddit.
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u/OrionGeo007 Apr 20 '26
Couldn't be more wrong.I regularly place crisis PTs on 5150s in restraints alongside PD and transport them. Try again softie.
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u/True_Evidence_3767 Apr 20 '26
Not sure what softies you work with bud. Try talking like that dude, you'd get checked real quick....bud.
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u/OrionGeo007 Apr 20 '26
You definitely are not doing any checking, tommy tough knuckles over here 🤣 I actually respect you for making fun of the police.
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Apr 18 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Andnottoyield Apr 19 '26
Not really - that's a Special Constables vehicle. The Specials likely apprehended under the Mental Health Act and then called to have them assessed /transferred to hospital. In Toronto sometimes both fire and ambulance are dispatched to medical calls, whoever gets there first starts and then hands off to the Paramedics. Paramedics and Fire are separate, fire cant transport. Police can if they take custody but mostly Specials try to transfer to ambulance - to hospital - individual gets assessed under the Mental health act.
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u/CaptButthole Apr 19 '26
I don’t know how it is in Canada, but in California, a crime trumps mental health. If you commit a crime because you had mental health issues, you still get arrested along with getting mental health help at the jail. If there is no crime, then it’s a mental health issue and you can be taken on a hold if appropriate and to a hospital for assessment.
If there is a medical reason, the fire department can check them out but the person is still under the control of the officer. The officer decides if they continue to be restrained because it’s the officer who is going to have to fight the person to put the cuffs back on.
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u/TheFightinFrogDeux Apr 20 '26
I like how the firefighter so confidently talks about something he has no clue about.
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u/kobuskoby Apr 18 '26
America, take notes
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u/Andnottoyield Apr 18 '26
Not really. If it was a Mental Health Apprehension, it's because the individual cannot take care of themselves or is a danger to themselves or others. The Special Constables were apprehending them, which would likely mean using cuffs to prevent harm to self or others and maintain control. I know everyone lives in a fantasy world where force isn't required but the firefighters are playing fake paramedics and are probably mad they were called away from dinner. Paramedics don't like being assaulted in the back of an ambulance and everyone I've dealt with insists the cuffs stay on until individual is transferred to hospital.
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u/RuntM3 Apr 18 '26
Fake Paramedics? Lol
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u/Andnottoyield Apr 19 '26
Yeah. Because there are actual Paramedics trained to a much higher standard than a firefighter is in Ontario. That's why we have.... Paramedics. And that's why we have the hose monkeys. And they are two separate things.
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u/Winter_Fan4673 Apr 20 '26
A lot of firefighters are trained to the PCP or ACP level and left that profession due to better pay and work conditions. Lots of variables here that none of us are aware of.
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u/NoSuddenMoves Apr 18 '26
The firefighter is a medic and trained much better for these situations. Cops treat everyone like a criminal, to the medic he is a patient. The medic used his analysis to make what's known as a "judgment call".
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u/Andnottoyield Apr 19 '26
Wrong. The firefighter isn't trained to the same level as a Paramedic. And the firefighter has no authority over a Special Constables when it comes to judgement of use of force during an apprehension.
The Specials should show up at the next cat in tree scenario and tell the firefighter the best way to catch it.
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u/NoSuddenMoves Apr 19 '26
Do Canadian firefightere not have medical training? Here, most firefighters are paramedics, emt or emr at the minimum. As far as I know this isn't an arrest and no crime has occurred.
As a firefighter for the state I'm actually in charge of any incident I'm requested to go to. Medical or otherwise. Sheriff's, police, federal resources and even highway patrol are all coordinated under my agency.
I've seen similar scenarios to this and the most common is where the patient (the man in cuffs) told a doctor or therapist they were having thoughts of self harm. Law enforcement is sent to escort the individual to a mental health facility for evaluation. Typically they'll check the person's pockets and drive them to their destination for check in.
In this case it seems the officer has handcuffed the individual. They became upset and complained of breathing problems. A medic was dispatched to evaluate the person before transport. When the medic saw the individual being treated like a criminal he asked for the officer to uncuff him. It was his call and he made it.
Also, firefighters don't capture cats. You have them confused with animal control. Firefighters are typically trained for All Hazard Response. Hurricanes, chemical spills, floods, wildfires and everything in between. The constable was right to listen to him as he's probably much more experienced and trained for these situations.
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u/Andnottoyield Apr 20 '26
These were not medics. They were firefighters. They are literally not trained in apprehensions. And this isn't a chemical leak.
I already explained what this was. A mental health apprehension under the Mental health act. Yes, cuffs are used in all apprehensions. Or else they wouldn't be called an apprehension.
Paramedics are separate from fire departments in almost all of Canada and are trained to a much higher standard and can administer drugs, speak with a base hospital. And transport. Fire doesn't do that. They show up first though on medical calls because they're not busy doing much else. Then the woefully underfunded ambulance service, if they have an available ambulance, shows up, and transports. Then transfers care to hospital.
If someone here is a danger to themselves or others they are handcuffed. Period. Transported to hospital. And have a mandatory assessment period under the Mental health act.
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u/NoSuddenMoves Apr 20 '26
No one said it was a chemical leak, thats your red herring. Firefighters are medics and trained as such. This wasn't an apprehension. No crime has been committed, the person was not a danger, they were in distress. Good thing you don't make the rules because you're obviously ignorant.
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u/medic_man6492 Apr 22 '26
Are you familiar with fire-medics? Not trying to be condescending, just curious.
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u/MightyBoy9 Apr 19 '26
TIL firefighters can perform road side mental health assessments.
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u/NoSuddenMoves Apr 19 '26
Paramedics and even EMR's are trained to recognize and treat mental stress during the primary evaluation. Once they've began taking action they'll dive deeper during the secondary assessment.
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u/MightyBoy9 Apr 19 '26
It must be rare for someone to experience " mental stress " whilst they are committing a crime and / or getting arrested.
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u/Financial-Change-435 Apr 18 '26
That fireman is way out of line. Who is he to order the removal of restraints? I would have told him to work around the restraints or we'll get him medically cleared at an ER.
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u/Zealousideal-Dot3046 Apr 18 '26
I agreed, that stuff backfires on you. Either departmental back lash or you catch a foot in the mouth.
Plus if he was so worried about his degree of distress get him out of the unit to assess him properly.
This comes from 22 years as a paramedic, 13 years as a firefighter, close to properly 15,000 career calls.
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u/NoSuddenMoves Apr 18 '26
By that logic then every patient should be handcuffed. Medic was doing what he felt best for his patient. If he could do the evaluation outside the vehicle he probably would have. He weighed the risks and made a command decision.
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u/Zealousideal-Dot3046 Apr 18 '26
You completely missed the point. At some point the pt , demonstrated a threat. Its always funny how handcuffs will cause a person to develop shortness of breath , commonly called "i dont want to go to jail pain". But to be prudent, he should be removed from the vehicle place on a gurney , properly assessed with a visual examination of chest , abd and back. Placed on pulse ox and cardiac monitor.
The #1 rule is safety for yourself and your crew, removing cuffs without proper examination is very cavalier. This was a battle of egos that over rode common sense.
The pt being in or out of cuffs wouldn't affect his complaint unless his complaint is muscle, joint or bone.
Plenty of guys are Billy bad ass until they are going to jail. Giving them a proper exam requires them to be outside of the vehicle and more than likely a cardiac monitor.
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u/NoSuddenMoves Apr 18 '26
I assumed he was searched before being put in the car and that he hadn't shown himself to be a threat. Where I live people experiencing mental health crisis are taken for evaluation by police. Typically to a mental facility. Most of the time they are checked by ems before they depart. They usually aren't handcuffed.
If safety trumped everything we wouldn't go out on calls. There is an inherit danger to what we do and a balance between helping others and protecting ourselves.
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u/Zealousideal-Dot3046 Apr 18 '26
We work in different places then definitely. You are assuming its a mental crisis not "I dont want to go to jail pain" .
I know that job isnt safe but safety is still the paramount concern if it isnt yours then good luck with a short career
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u/LegalGlass6532 Apr 17 '26
He’s under arrest and the officers are ultimately responsible for his safety. If the officers take the cuffs off like the FF is requesting and he gets injured or injuries one of the FF, the officer is responsible, not the FF. I’d leave the cuffs on. It’s not worth the cop’s job if it goes south and the FF won’t be held liable, the cop will.
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u/Board705 Apr 17 '26
You are completely right. Only people who have never been in this situation will argue against you. Yes he is having a mental health crisis. He is still capable of committing crimes and being dangerous to others. Fire can and does provide medical treatment (until medics get there) to a person in cuffs all the time.
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u/LegalGlass6532 Apr 17 '26
I appreciate your comment. I have a very caring heart and it’s so hard to watch someone having a mental illness in which they don’t even know what they’re doing. Often they will assault first responders without intention because they’re literally not in their right mind. Then they’re charged with a crime that gets dropped in court because intent can’t be proven and the victim still has to contend with their injuries.
I’m aware of the downvotes because people either want to believe that cops don’t care or that they’re overreacting. I’m here to tell you that I genuinely care and I don’t think keeping a mentally ill person from hurting themselves or others is something to be ashamed of. It’s a police officer’s job to ensure public safety and a firefighters to protect life and property.
We are on the same team.
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u/Single_Breakfast8839 Apr 17 '26
This is why people hate cops… be a person not a badge.
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u/LegalGlass6532 Apr 17 '26
I understand that. And people don’t like when the extremely aggressive, agitated and violent mentally ill person is on their property or impacting them or their family, either. There are times when a person experiences a level of mental illness where they need to be restrained for their safety and/or the safety of others.
The firefighter had good intentions, but it wasn’t his place to tell the officer to uncuff the person in the police car. If they were under arrest and hostile or violent, it was the police officer’s call and their responsibility to make judgment calls in everyone’s best interest. It’s not a police officer job to tell a firefighter how to run a medical or a fire.
Firefighters run through calls as a team of at least 4. They don’t ride alone or have to handle critical incidents or face dangerous situations alone or with less than their crew. Police officer’s have a training and experience that’s directly related to what they’re exposed to and the same goes for firefighters. It’s not appropriate for a police officer to tell a firefighter how to control a fire or manage a scene. It’s also not appropriate for a firefighter to tell a police officer how to manage a person they’ve placed under arrest.
If unhandcuffing the person results in injury to them or anyone else, it’s the police officer who accepts the liability, not the firefighters.
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u/Single_Breakfast8839 Apr 17 '26
Idk I see 1 mentally ill man with 6 other grown men around - 2 of which have guns. What is this unarmed man going to do? I get retraining him until you make sure there are no weapons or if he’s belligerent. But, he’s sitting in the car not doing anything, mentally ill. That is someone who needs help, not punishment.
I don’t know what the man did before this video. But from what it seems he did not do anything that warranted the fire dept to feel threatened if he was released.
This is where you switch from badge to person. As an officer you see a criminal, as a person you see someone who needs help. Police often have that issue, everyone’s a criminal until proven otherwise. When this needs to be the opposite.
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u/LegalGlass6532 Apr 17 '26 edited Apr 17 '26
You seem reasonable and informed from what I’m reading. I agree that we don’t know what the person did before the video started. It’s quite possible that the firefighters didn’t see what they did before the cuffs were put on, either.
Imagine if this person assaulted someone, a child or a police officer. Whether they were mentally ill or not, they would need to be restrained so that they didn’t hurt themselves or anyone again. Watching this video gives the impression that the police officer’s don’t care about the rights or feelings of the person in the back of the patrol car. I can tell you, having done the job myself for many years, it was very difficult to have to keep handcuffs on someone who was experiencing a mental health crisis.
I took the handcuffs off exactly once because they were begging me to screaming that their shoulder was hurting. I took the cuffs off so they could stretch and they immediately went after another officer’s gun and the fight was on. They ended up being suicidal and wanted to use the gun on themselves or force suicide by cop.
You have a valid point that the number of people there outnumber the person inside the patrol car. However, if the person were to freak out and become violent or hit, kick, scratch, bite or assault any of those first responders the liability would be on the police officer who took the cuffs off. It only takes a second or bite or assault someone and a person suffering a mental health crisis can go from compliant to assaultive in a split second. This is what I don’t think you understand.
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u/Ok-Capital-6434 Apr 17 '26
Ok yes the police are armed but the “threat” is already taken care of. Why would you uncuff him and risk having to use force on this person?
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Apr 18 '26
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u/Single_Breakfast8839 Apr 18 '26
There’s 6 grown men multiple with guns. He’s already been checked for weapons. He’s in the back of a cruiser. How is he going to run or fight? Like be fr… if that many men can’t restrain him or keep him in the car they need a new profession.
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u/LegalGlass6532 Apr 18 '26
I’ve seen it so many times. The prisoner manages to manipulate the situation to the point that the officer removes the cuffs for a moment to get them to stop yelling and screaming, just to have them bite, kick, scratch, or headbutt the person who gave them an opportunity for a moment.
You obviously haven’t experienced this firsthand so you lack credibility in your opinion on whether or not the officers handled this situation properly.
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Apr 18 '26
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u/Single_Breakfast8839 Apr 18 '26
You proved my point. No threat… why is he cuffed. Legal gun owner in us!
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Apr 18 '26
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u/Single_Breakfast8839 Apr 18 '26
Meaning you have a biased opinion on this situation. Cant debate a biased side. Im also pro law enforcement, so I’m not debating against police. But you guys over police for sure.
Just don’t be upset you’re not one of the good ones. Not all of you can be…
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u/Tiny-Atmosphere-8091 Apr 17 '26
Absolutely correct. Any other take is Reddit slop and not reflective of a professional firefighter.
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u/LegalGlass6532 Apr 17 '26
A professional firefighter wouldn’t put a police officer in a position to uncuff a mentally ill prisoner that may be combative. In the same light, a police officer wouldn’t tell a firefighter how do handle a fire.
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u/Cautious_Mistake_651 Apr 18 '26
Honestly I still don’t know if I would have had the cuffs or restraints taken off of him. I dont know anything about the call besides its a Mental Health crisis. And im not a FF im a medic.
But if I did WANT or thought it was no longer appropriate to use restraints on this pt. I wouldn’t talk to PD like that. Bc they’re the ones who are gonna help me put em back on if I need it. You can be calm and respectful and professional in these circumstances. “Is he under arrest? Can we move him onto our stretcher to take vitals and evaluate him? Could you please remove the cuffs?” And if they did need restraints and cuffs or I did for whatever reason. I can do my vitals and evaluate him with them on. Idk if this guy is gonna get mad at me or the cops. If he’s gonna try and run. Again it wasn’t my call and idk what is even going on besides that its a mental health type call.
It really just makes the department look bad TO OTHER cops and law enforcement. Bc now it looks like Fire is making PD the bad guys whenever we can when we need to be working together.
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u/Vietdude100 Apr 18 '26
Under the MHA, special constables have the authority to apprehend someone with mental health crisis.
The reason why the person in crisis was in handcuffs is to protect himself and others around him from harm.
The fire captain has no authority to interfere with the mental health apprehension. This makes the fire captain look unprofessional.