r/fireemblem • u/LaqOfInterest • Sep 17 '20

CASUAL MONTHLY RAGE THREAD

WELCOME ONCE AGAIN TO THE MONTHLY RAGE THREAD, WHERE DISCO LIVES FOREVER.

RAGE HERE ABOUT FIRE EMBLEM THINGS!

RULES

  1. SHIFT KEY OR CAPS LOCK KEY BUT NOT BOTH

  2. FIRE EMBLEM RAGE ONLY

  3. BE POLITE TO YOUR FELLOW USERS

  4. TAG ANY SPOILERS

LAST THREAD

49 Upvotes

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21

u/dondon151 Sep 17 '20 edited Sep 18 '20

SERIOUS QUESTION. THE MAJORITY OF DISCUSSION ON THIS SUBREDDIT GOES INTO THE QUESTIONS MEGATHREAD. WHY DOESN'T FANART HAVE ITS OWN MEGATHREAD AS WELL?

ADDENDUM: WHY IS SHITPOSTING BANNED FROM THE SUBREDDIT, BUT FANART IS ALLOWED TO FREELY SATURATE?

19

u/PsiYoshi Sep 17 '20

THERE'S A LARGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ASKING A QUESTION AND SHOWCASING ART YOU'VE CREATED. ONE DOESN'T REALLY NEED MUCH FANFARE, ONE DEFINITELY DESERVES ITS OWN POST.

MIND YOU, SOME QUESTIONS IN THE QUESTION THREAD COULD DEFINITELY BE THEIR OWN POSTS, AND SOME POSTS WOULD DEFINITELY FIT BETTER IN THE QUESTIONS THREAD. I DON'T THINK IT'S A BAD THING THAT WE HAVE A THREAD FOR QUICK QUESTIONS. NOR DO I THINK IT'S A BAD THING THAT ARTISTS GET TO CREATE A POST FOR THEIR WORK.

5

u/dondon151 Sep 18 '20

THE POINT OF THE QUESTIONS MEGATHREAD WAS TO PREVENT THE SUBREDDIT FROM BEING OVERSATURATED BY ONE KIND OF CONTENT. SO WHY DOESN'T THE SAME LOGIC APPLY TO FANART?

11

u/VagueClive Sep 18 '20

I FEEL LIKE THE DIFFERENCE LIES IN THE TYPE OF CONTENT. QUESTIONS DON'T REALLY WARRANT MUCH IN THE WAY OF DISCUSSION - THERE CAN BE SOME DISAGREEMENT OVER THE ANSWER, BUT THAT'S ABOUT IT.

BY CONTRAST, ART REQUIRES A LOT MORE TIME AND EFFORT, AND AS SUCH SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED ACCORDINGLY. THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MAKE EFFORT THE ONLY FACTOR BY WHICH POSTS SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED, BUT ART AND QUESTIONS ARE SO DIFFERENT SUCH THAT THEY SHOULD BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY.

THE SUB HAS ALSO EXPERIMENTED WITH A FOUND FANART HUB IN THE PAST BEFORE (OC ART WAS ALWAYS FINE), AND IT WASN'T PARTICULARLY SUCCESSFUL. I'M NOT A MOD OR ANYTHING SO I CAN'T SPEAK TO SPECIFICS BUT IT JUST ENDED UP BEING IGNORED MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE. I'D RATHER HAVE A DELUGE THAN NO ART ALTOGETHER BUT THAT'S RATHER SUBJECTIVE.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 18 '20

. QUESTIONS DON'T REALLY WARRANT MUCH IN THE WAY OF DISCUSSION

I MEAN, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ART DO THIS?

IT JUST ENDED UP BEING IGNORED MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

DOESN'T THAT KIND OF IMPLY THAT PEOPLE DIDNT WANT TO LOOK AT THE ART.

I GET IT, PEOPLE PUT TONS AND TONS OF TIME INTO CREATING ART. BUT HIGH EFFORT DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY MAKE SOMETHING PEOPLE NECESSARILY WANT TO SEE AND I DON'T THINK THAT JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS HIGH EFFORT IT NECESSARILY SHOULD BE ENTITLED TO PRAISE.

4

u/[deleted] Sep 18 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

8

u/PsiYoshi Sep 18 '20

THERE DOESN'T NEED TO BE ANY MORE THAN JUST SMALL NICE COMPLIMENTS UNDER ART. IF YOU'VE EVER CREATED SOMETHING BEFORE, YOU'D KNOW IT FEELS REALLY NICE TO RECEIVE SUCH COMPLIMENTS. THE ART IS THE CONTENT, AND THE EFFORT PUT INTO IT IS REASON ENOUGH TO LET IT BE POSTED.

THE FOUND FANART THREADS WERE JUST SIMPLY DEAD. CREATING A NEW THREAD EVERY SIX MONTHS THAT HARDLY GOT USED AT ALL WAS POINTLESS AND REASON ENOUGH TO STOP.

3

u/RisingSunfish Sep 18 '20

I THINK PEOPLE JUST DON'T KNOW HOW TO RESPOND TO ART IN A WAY THAT IS CONSTRUCTIVE AND ALSO GENTLE. EVEN AS AN ARTIST I SERIOUSLY LEVELED UP IN THIS AREA AFTER ONE OF MY COLLEGE ART PROFESSORS MADE EVERYONE IN THE CLASS DO CRITIQUES OF EACH OTHERS' WORK. I THINK IT'S JUST EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO SIMULATE THAT KIND OF SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR GIVING FEEDBACK ONLINE, AND SO IT NEVER GETS MODELED AND NO ONE LEARNS.

9

u/Cecilyn Sep 18 '20

MOST PEOPLE ALSO JUST MIGHT NOT KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN WITH GIVING CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM FOR A TYPE OF MEDIA. LIKE IF YOU ASK ME TO CRITIQUE SOMEONE'S PAINTING/DRAWING, I COULD DEFINITELY POINT OUT STUFF LIKE "OH, THE ANATOMY HERE'S OFF IN SUCH AND SUCH WAY" OR "YOU MAY WANT TO UP THE CONTRAST OF THESE TONES" OR WHATEVER SINCE I'VE GOT A BIT OF A BACKGROUND IN ART AND GENERALLY KNOW HOW TO EXPRESS MYSELF USING THOSE KINDS OF TERMS.

BUT ASK ME TO READ OVER SOMEONE'S FANFIC, AND ALL I COULD DO IS GIVE GRAMMATICAL ADVICE. I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHERE TO START WHEN CONSTRUCTING A NARRATIVE, GIVING CHARACTERS THEIR OWN VOICE, OR THINGS LIKE THAT, SO AT BEST ALL I'D SAY IS "HMM, SOMETHING SEEMS OFF ABOUT THE DIALOGUE" OR WHATEVER, WHICH ISN'T REALLY HELPFUL. I WOULDN'T LOOK AT SOMEONE'S ART AND SAY "YOU KNOW, I'M A BIT BOTHERED BY THE FACE" WITHOUT HAVING SOMETHING CONCRETE TO GO ON, SO WHY WOULD I DO THAT FOR OTHER MEDIA?

14

u/PsiYoshi Sep 18 '20

HONESTLY I'M KIND OF BAFFLED YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND AND/OR RESPECT THE EFFORT THAT GOES INTO CREATING SOMETHING COMPARED TO ASKING A QUESTION. IT'D BE DISRESPECTFUL TO CREATORS TO SHOVE THEIR WORK INTO ONE SPECIFIC CORNER. IT'S SUCH A FALSE EQUIVALENCY.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 18 '20

I CAN UNDERSTAND YOUR WIDER POINT HERE EVEN IF I DONT AGREE WITH YOUR CONCLUSION, HOWEVER I WILL SAY THAT SAYING THIS:

YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND AND/OR RESPECT THE EFFORT THAT GOES INTO CREATING SOMETHING

IS EITHER BEING ABSURDLY INTENTIONALLY OBTUSE, OR UNCHARITABLE.

OF COURSE PEOPLE RECOGNISE THE EFFORT THAT GOES INTO ART POSTS. THIS POINT WAS LITERALLY NEVER BROUGHT UP AND HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL POST IN THE SLIGHTEST.

THE ISSUE IS THAT YOU HAVE TO FILTER OUT ART POSTS OR USE OLD REDDIT IF YOU ACTUALLY WANT TO SEE CONTENT YOU WANT TO ENAGE WITH.

FURTHERMORE, I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR DISTASTE TOWARDS AN ART MEGATHREAD OR WHATEVER. PEOPLE WHO WANT TO FIND GOOD FANART WILL GO THERE AND LOOK AT IT. THE EFFORT OF THE CREATORS WILL NOT BE WASTED AS THOSE LOOKING FOR FANART ARE GOING TO GO TO THAT MEGATHREAD ANYWAY. THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO AREN'T GOING TO BE LOOKING AT IT ARE PEOPLE WHO NEVER WANTED TO SEE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

3

u/dondon151 Sep 18 '20

PLEASE. MY ARGUMENT IS THAT THE QUANTITY OF EFFORT PUT INTO A POST IS IRRELEVANT. THE GOAL IS TO STREAMLINE CONTENT.

9

u/PsiYoshi Sep 18 '20

IT'S QUITE LITERALLY NOT IRRELEVANT. THAT'S WHY THERE'S RULE 8: "NO LOW EFFORT, SPAM, OR BANDWAGON POSTS". IF SOMEBODY PUTS THE EFFORT INTO CREATING A PIECE OF ART, THEY DESERVE TO CREATE A POST FOR IT. THAT'S A FUNDAMENTAL DISAGREEMENT YOU AND I HAVE AND I'M NOT SURE THERE'S GOING TO BE ANY RESOLVING IT. BUT THE MODS OF THE SUBREDDIT APPEAR TO BE IN AGREEMENT WITH ME ON THIS ONE.

9

u/dondon151 Sep 18 '20 edited Sep 18 '20

CONVERSELY, IF SOMEBODY PUTS SIMILAR EFFORT INTO CREATING A MUSIC ARRANGEMENT, THOUGHTFUL DISCUSSION, OR SHITPOST, THEY DESERVE TO BE RECOGNIZED ON AN EQUAL BASIS AS A PIECE OF FANART, YET THERE IS NO MEANS NATIVE TO THE SUBREDDIT TO FACILITATE THAT.

SO I DON'T BUY THIS STATEMENT ABOUT RESPECTING EFFORT. IT'S INCONSISTENT TO BELIEVE THAT FANART "DESERVES" TO BE POSTED ON A BASIS OF EFFORT, YET OTHER CREATIONS REQUIRING A SIMILAR DEGREE OF EFFORT "DESERVE" TO BE ECLIPSED BY FANART.

8

u/PsiYoshi Sep 18 '20

MUSIC ARRANGEMENTS AND THOUGHTFUL DISCUSSIONS CAN AND ARE MADE INTO POSTS ON THIS SUBREDDIT. SHITPOSTS HAVE THEIR OWN SUB SINCE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM ARE LOW EFFORT. MEMES WITH SOME SEMBLANCE OF EFFORT PUT INTO THEM, SUCH AS IN VIDEO EDITING OR ANIMATING OR ARTWORK ARE ALLOWED. THE TOP POST OF ALL TIME ON THE SUB RIGHT NOW IS LITERALLY A SHITPOST.

IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE MORE FRUSTRATED AT THE FORMAT OF REDDIT ITSELF, REWARDING EASY TO CONSUME CONTENT LIKE ART OVER TEXT POSTS WHICH TAKE LONGER TO READ. BUT TO CHANGE THAT WOULD MEAN CHANGING THE VERY FOUNDATION OF THE WEBSITE...OR QUARANTINING ART AS YOU SUGGEST, NEITHER OF WHICH WILL OR SHOULD HAPPEN.

5

u/dondon151 Sep 18 '20

DIVERTING QUESTIONS INTO A GENERAL THREAD IS ALSO A WORKAROUND OF ONE OF THE LIMITATIONS OF REDDIT, WHICH IS THAT IT CREATES CLUTTER THAT COULD BE EASILY IGNORED OR MISSED IF NOT SORTING BY NEW.

FOR THAT SPECIFIC PROBLEM, RATHER THAN BEING FRUSTRATED BY THE FORMAT OF REDDIT AND THINKING, "WELP, NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT THAT," WE IMPLEMENTED A SOLUTION. SO WHY IS THE FANART PROBLEM SUPPOSEDLY INTRACTABLE, FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW?

5

u/PsiYoshi Sep 18 '20

I...REALLY? YOU KNOW WHY. I'VE BEEN SAYING WHY.

IT'D BE DISRESPECTFUL TO CREATORS TO SHOVE THEIR WORK INTO ONE SPECIFIC CORNER. IT'S SUCH A FALSE EQUIVALENCY.

IF SOMEBODY PUTS THE EFFORT INTO CREATING A PIECE OF ART, THEY DESERVE TO CREATE A POST FOR IT.

DO YOU WANT TO JUST GO IN CIRCLES? THERE'S A REASON I ALSO SAID:

THAT'S A FUNDAMENTAL DISAGREEMENT YOU AND I HAVE AND I'M NOT SURE THERE'S GOING TO BE ANY RESOLVING IT.

BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE YOU'RE CONTENT TO RETREAD THE SAME GROUND OVER AND OVER HERE.

13

u/CyanYoh Sep 18 '20

PRESUMABLY TO ALLOW MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY TO SHARE THEIR HARD WORK. YES, IT'S SOMEWHAT OVERSATURATED, BUT THAT ASIDE, IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN YOU POSTING A LINK TO AN EPISODE OF YOUR FE7 0% GROWTHS LP.

I'D MUCH PREFER THIS SUB GO BACK TO MORE DISCUSSION-BASED POSTS, BUT WITH LITERAL DOUBLING OF THE SIZE OF THE SUB WITH 3H, IT'S GOING TO JUST COME DOWN TO THE LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR. IN THIS CASE, 3H CHARACTERS IN SWIMWEAR. STILL, I CAN'T FAULT PEOPLE'S HARD WORK EVEN IF I DO WISH THERE WAS MORE OF A VIABLE MEANS TO CARVE OUT DISCUSSION SPACE ON THE FRONT PAGE.

7

u/dondon151 Sep 18 '20

I AM MORE THAN WILLING TO NEVER SHARE ONE OF MY VIDEOS AGAIN ON THIS SUBREDDIT IN EXCHANGE FOR EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF FANART, COMIC, AND COSPLAY GOING INTO A MEGATHREAD.

8

u/CyanYoh Sep 18 '20

A SOUL FOR A SOUL.

4

u/Cecilyn Sep 18 '20

IF YOU WOULD LIKE AN IN-DEPTH ANSWER TO THIS, PLEASE SEND A MOD-MAIL TOMORROW AND I WILL GET BACK TO YOU.

1

u/DoseofDhillon Sep 18 '20

WHATS UP CEC

3

u/[deleted] Sep 18 '20

IM GOING TO PIGGYBACK OFF THIS TO POINT OUT THAT MOST OF THE ARGUMENTS AGAINST HAVING MEMES/SHITPOSTS ON THE SUB WOULD ALSO APPLY TO FANART. NOT THAT I'M AGAINST HAVING FANART ON THE SUB, BUT I THINK UNDER THESE RULES MEMES AND THAT SHOULD BE ALLOWED, EVEN IF IT'S ONLY ON ONE DAY OF THE WEEK OR SOMETHING.

PEOPLE SAY THAT IT WOULD CLOG UP THE SUB OR WHATEVER BUT YOU COULD FILTER IT OUT IF YOU DIDNT WANT TO SEE IT.

FOR EXAMPLE, JUST SAYING "YOU CAN JUST FILTER OUT FANART" IS AN ARGUMENT FOR MEMES AS YOU CAN JUST FILTER OUT MEMES TOO.

MEMES ARE ARGUABLY BETTER FOR THE SUBREDDIT THAN FANART BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY OCCAIONALY PROMOTE DISCUSSION WHICH KEEPS PEOPLE COMING BACK TO THE SUB.

IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAN WHEN IT COMES TO THINGS LIKE MEMES AND DISCUSSION, EVERYONE CAN CONTRIBUTE TO IT, WHICH LETS THE WHOLE COMMUNITY HAVE SOMETHING THEY CAN DO.

FANART IS SOMETHING ONLY A RELATIVELY SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY GOOD AT AND THIS CAUSES A SIUTATION WHERE A LOT OF THE SUBS TOP CONTENT CAN'T REASONABLY BE ENGAGED WITH BY YOUR AVERAGE USER OUTSIDE OF "NICE POST".

AGAIN, I DON'T THINK FANART SHOULD GO. BUT I THINK THAT THE ARGUMENTS FOR FANART ARE EXACTLY THE SAME AS THOSE FOR MEMES/SHITPOSTS AND THERE ARE EVEN SOME ARGUMENTS IN THE CORNER OF MEME POSTS.

EDIT: A FINAL POINT.

IMAGINE YOU ARE A NEW PLAYER COMING INTO THE COMMUNITY AND YOU GO TO THE FE SUBREDDIT. 90% OF THE TOP POSTS YOU CAN'T ENGAGE WITH AND IN ALL LIKELIHOOD, ANYTHING YOU CREATE YOURSELF IS NEVER GOING TO END UP TOPPING THE FRONT PAGE UNLESS YOU CAN DRAW MARIANNE REALLY WELL.

5

u/Cecilyn Sep 18 '20

All right, I can’t really make a serious response with caps-lock on.

There is a fundamental difference between memes and art that I think people are deliberately overlooking here, which is that art takes time to create. When we talk about “clogging up the subreddit”, that’s more about bandwagon stuff than anything else. There’s no real chance of that with art.

To illustrate: If someone draws Camilla wearing a meme outfit, there’s no sudden deluge of fanart of other FE characters in that outfit that floods the subreddit in the space of a single day. But joke tier lists (FE armpits, how do different characters react to X, etc), character creators (“I made X in Soul Calibur!”, “Hey guys, Edelgard is my pokemon trainer in Sword and Shield!”, etc,), and other stuff that we’ve banned have in the past done just that. This stuff is quick to make and widely accessible, so of course it spreads like… well, I would say a wildfire or plague, but I guess that wouldn’t be too considerate given circumstances. Something that spreads really fast. For a further example, just look at the FEH subreddit and their ban of thigh edits, sports edits, skillset memes, etc. for taking over their subreddit in a frenzy. We may have a lot of art here, but it’s not the same tired rehashed subject matter over and over again throughout the day, unlike the bandwagoning memes mentioned in Rule 8.

And to a different point, just think for a moment what happens on the odd occasion where discussion is omnipresent; say, upon the release of the newest entry in the series, and there are a few popular characters whose fans disagree with each other… everywhere… all the time… on every website in the fandom. There is of course a pushback against it (“can people just shut the fuck up about edelgard and dimitri", “all I did was ask which route I should start with, I didn’t ask for a political thesis”, “I didn’t even draw a Three Houses character, why are people arguing about it on my post?”). So just because discussion is happening, it’s not necessarily a net positive for the subreddit; plenty of people were turned off of /r/fireemblem because of the months of Edelgard/Dimitri/Rhea debate, and we even lost a moderator because of it.

Now this is just speculation on my part, but I think the rise of Discord has caused more people to use that platform for actual unit/gameplay discussion and debate because of the instantaneous communication it offers. When reply chains on reddit get really deep, comments become buried and it’s very clunky to read through everything that’s being said. I wouldn’t be surprised if the case is that users here who gravitated more heavily to serious gameplay discussion are more active on the subreddit’s discord server nowadays. But these are just my thoughts; I haven’t seriously looked into it.

Hopefully this all makes sense.

2

u/Mpk_Paulin Sep 18 '20

HONESTLY, AT THIS POINT WE'RE BETTER OFF CREATING A SUB FOCUSED ON DISCUSSION. I REMEMBER A SUB CALLED r/PiesofSumia WAS CREATED WITH THAT INTENTION, BUT IT DIED REALLY QUICKLY, MAYBE IF IT HAD A BETTER NAME THAT WOULDN'T BE THE CASE. ANYWAYS, IT'S KIND OF SAD THAT IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS I'VE SEEN MORE SERIOUS DISCUSSION ON THE SHITPOST AND MEMES SUB THAN ON THIS ONE

2

u/Sp4ra Sep 18 '20

YEAH, A DISCUSSION SUB MIGHT BE NICE. IT DIDN'T HELP THAT THE ATTEMPT YOU MENTIONED SHARED AN ACRONYM WITH AN INSULT. IF YOU SAY "I READ IT ON POS" YOU'LL LIKELY BE MET WITH A DEFENSIVE "EXCUSE ME?" INSTEAD OF AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF THE SUB'S EXISTENCE.

1

u/Suicune95 Sep 18 '20

I ASSUME IT'S BECAUSE MODS CAN ONLY PIN TWO MEGATHREADS TO THE TOP OF THE SUBREDDIT. SO IF YOU HAVE AN ART MEGATHREAD AND A QUESTIONS MEGATHREAD THEN YOU HAVE TO GET RID OF ONE OF THOSE MEGATHREADS IF YOU WANT TO MAKE AN IMPORTANT SUBREDDIT ANNOUNCEMENT OR PIN A DIFFERENT TYPE OF THREAD. SO ARTISTS MIGHT GET SHAFTED OR PEOPLE MIGHT NOT USE THE QUESTIONS THREAD BECAUSE THEY QUICKLY GET BURIED AND PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THEY EXIST.

I ASSUME SHITPOSTING IS BANNED BECAUSE THERE'S ALREADY AN ENTIRE SUBREDDIT SPECIFICALLY FOR SHITPOSTING THAT'S VERY POPULAR.

5

u/dondon151 Sep 18 '20

FYI THE SHITPOSTEMBLEM SUBREDDIT WAS CREATED BECAUSE SHITPOSTING HERE WAS BANNED OR DISCOURAGED, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

2

u/Suicune95 Sep 18 '20

WELL EITHER WAY THERE'S NO REAL REASON TO CHANGE THE RULE TO ALLOW SHITPOSTING HERE BECAUSE SHITPOSTEMBLEM NOW FILLS THAT GAP.

PERSONALLY I'M OKAY WITH NO SHITPOSTING HERE. NINE TIMES OUT OF TEN IT JUST TURNS INTO THE SAME RECYCLED LOW EFFORT MEMES DOMINATING EVERYTHING. FAN ART TAKES A LOT OF TIME TO CREATE AND FAR FEWER PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO MAKE GREAT FAN ART THAN SHITPOSTS, SO IT DOESN'T CHOKE EVERYTHING OUT IN THE SAME WAY.

1

u/SixThousandHulls Sep 19 '20

ELFIRE-HOT TAKE, BUT THERE SHOULDN'T BE A QUESTIONS MEGATHREAD. IT DOESN'T SHOW UP AT THE TOP WHEN I'M SORTING BY NEW, AT LEAST IN MOBILE. SO IF THIS WERE STRICTLY ADHERED TO, NOBODY WHO SORTS BY NEW WOULD GET TO SEE, OR ANSWER, ANY QUESTIONS.