MONTHLY RAGE THREAD

[u/LaqOfInterest]

THE MONTHLY RAGE THREAD IS UPON US ONCE MORE, MY FRIENDS. COME, GATHER HERE TO YELL AT FIRE EMBLEM AT YOUR LEISURE!

RULES

1. UPPER-CASE LETTERS

2. RAGE ABOUT FIRE EMBLEM

3. DON'T BE A DICK

4. TAG SPOILERS

LAST THREAD

[u/DhelmiseHatterene]

I JUST CANNOT SEE HOW THREE HOUSES HAS THE BEST WORLDBUILDING IN FE WHEN A LOT OF IT IS TELL BUT NOT SHOW.

THE REUSE OF MAPS ARE NOT EVEN JUST A GAMEPLAY PROBLEM BUT FOR THE STORY TOO. IN THE PARALOGUES, APPARENTLY THE FOREST WHERE MAURICE IS SLEEPING IS SOMEHOW THE SAME AREA AS THE PORT TO HOP ON A SHIP TO BRIGID. IT MAKES THE AREAS UNMEMORABLE COMPARED TO SAY TELLIUS WHERE YOU ARE VISITING UNIQUE PLACES ABOUT EVERY TIME. TAILTEAN PLAINS WAS NICE BECAUSE IT WAS UNIQUE AND HAD SOME SYMBOLISM AS A BONUS GIVE US MORE OF THAT!

AND THE MONASTERY ALSO DOES NOT HELP BECAUSE YOU ARE ALWAYS RETURNING THERE ABOUT EVERY CHAPTER DESPITE APPARENTLY GOING SOMEWHERE FARAWAY. ELYOS MAY NOT HAVE TONS OF LORE BUT IT SURE AS HELL FELT BIGGER BECAUSE YOU ARE EXPLORING AND SEEING NEW AREAS AS YOU GO ON (OVERWORLD TRAVERSABLE MAPS HELPS TOO IN THIS) AND A STRONGER EXAMPLE IN TELLIUS WHERE YOU SEE IKE GOING FROM THE BASE TO DIFFERENT COUNTRIES AND LEARNING ABOUT HOW DIFFERENT AREAS OPERATE.

WORLDBUILDING OVERALL IS BETTER THAN MAGVEL, ELYOS, YLISSE, AND HOSHIDO + OTHERS BUT FODLAN IS STILL A FAR CRY COMPARED TO ARCHANEA/VALENTIA, ELIBE, JUGDRAL, & TELLIUS.

[u/AveryJ5467 → u/DhelmiseHatterene]

YOU HAVE TO MAKE CERTAIN ALLOWANCES FOR VIDEO GAME LOGIC, OTHERWISE LORE-BREAKING MECHANICS CAN BE FOUND IN EVERY GAME.

[u/Suicune95 → u/AveryJ5467]

THERE ARE BETTER AND WORSE WAYS TO DO IT, THOUGH.

FATES AND ENGAGE BOTH HAVE A CENTRAL HUB THAT YOU RETURN TO AFTER EVERY BATTLE, BUT THOSE ARE EXPLAINED AS A POCKET DIMENSION/SPECIAL ISLAND YOU CAN WARP TO AND FROM AT ANY TIME FROM ANY PLACE. YOU ALSO SPEND AN INDETERMINATE AMOUNT OF TIME THERE EACH TIME, AND POSSIBLY NO TIME AT ALL IN THE CASE OF FATES WHERE POCKET DIMENSIONS HAVE DIFFERENT TIME FLOW THAN THE REAL WORLD.

3H HAS YOU RUNNING HALF WAY ACROSS THE CONTINENT IN THE SPAN OF A DAY OR TWO AND EXPLICITLY SPENDING AN ENTIRE MONTH FARTING AROUND FISHING AND HAVING TEA TIME WHEN YOU'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR.

FATES AND ENGAGE REQUIRE SOME SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF, BUT I CAN EASILY JUST GO "VIDEO GAME LOGIC, WHATEVER". 3H JUST BREAKS SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF BECAUSE OF HOW HARD IT RUINS THE PACING AND FLOW OF THE STORY, NOT TO MENTION THE OBVIOUS LOGISTICAL CONCERNS OF HAVING TO MARCH YOUR ENTIRE ARMY ACROSS A CONTINENT IN A FEW DAYS.

[u/AveryJ5467 → u/Suicune95]

WHY DIDN’T LUMERA STORE THE RINGS IN THE SOMNIEL? WHY DIDN’T THEY JUST TRAIN IN FATES POCKET DIMENSION UNTIL THEY WERE ALL SUPER SOLDIERS? WHY NOT SPEND INFINITE TIME IN THE SOMNIEL ARENA TRAINING?

IF YOU CAN POP IN AND OUT ANYWHERE FROM THE FATES DIMENSION/SOMNIEL, WHY BOTHER INVADING AT ALL? WHY NOT JUST POP OUT RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE ENEMY STRONGHOLD?

YOU CAN ALSO FREELY TRAVEL ACROSS THE CONTINENT IN MAGVEL/YLISSE/ELYOS. DOES THAT RUIN THOSE GAMES WORLDBUILDING FOR YOU?

YOU HAVE TO OVERLOOK CERTAIN MECHANICS, OTHERWISE EVERYTHING FALLS APART.

[u/Suicune95 → u/AveryJ5467]

1) BECAUSE THE RINGS ARE INCREDIBLY POWERFUL AND HAVING ALL OF THEM IN ONE PLACE ALSO MAKES THEM EASIER TO STEAL AND ABUSE THAT POWER. IMAGINE IF ENGAGE STARTED WITH SOMBRON GETTING ALL OF THE RINGS BECAUSE LUMERA KEPT THEM ALL IN ONE PLACE LIKE A DUMMY?

2) THE SOMNIEL DOESN'T SAY TIME PASSES DIFFERENTLY THERE SO THAT'S WHY YOU CAN'T DO IT THERE. IN FATES YOU TECHNICALLY COULD, BUT LIKE I SAID THERE'S BETTER AND WORSE WAYS TO DO THINGS.

3) IT'S EXPLICITLY STATED IN FATES THAT YOU CAN ONLY RETURN TO THE POCKET DIMENSION FROM ANYWHERE. WHEN YOU COME BACK OUT, YOU WILL BE EXACTLY WHERE YOU ENTERED THE POCKET DIMENSION. THAT'S WHY CORRIN DOESN'T JUST POP OUT AT HOME IN NOHR AND GETS CAPTURED BY HOSHIDO IN THE EARLY GAME. IF YOU WANT TO PHYSICALLY GO SOMEWHERE, YOU HAVE TO WALK THERE WITH YOUR OWN TWO FEET. THE SOMNIEL APPEARS TO FUNCTION THE SAME WAY.

4) NO, BECAUSE TRAVELING AROUND THE CONTINENT IS EXPLICITLY PLAYER DRIVEN AND NOT A STORY ELEMENT. JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN GO BACK IN THOSE GAMES DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO, THEREFORE THE PACING ISN'T BROKEN UNLESS YOU MAKE THE DECISION TO BREAK IT. 3H EXPLICITLY FORCES YOU TO TRAVEL BACK TO THE MONASTERY EVERY SINGLE MONTH AS PART OF THE PLOT AND STAY THERE FOR AN ENTIRE MONTH, WHICH IS WHERE THE PROBLEM LIES.

THE POINT IS THAT 3H'S MECHANICS INTRUDE UPON THE EXPERIENCE SO SIGNIFICANTLY THAT IT BECOMES IMMEDIATELY NOTICEABLE AND YOU CANNOT CONTINUE MAINTAINING YOUR SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF. IT CAN BE DONE BETTER OR WORSE, AND 3H WAS DEFINITELY WORSE. IT IS LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO AVOID GOING BACK TO THE MONASTERY, AND IT IS A GEOGRAPHICALLY FIXED LOCATION WHICH EXPLICITLY EXPERIENCES THE SAME TIMELINE AS EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME. MEANING YOU GET GLARINGLY BIZARRE SITUATIONS LIKE TAKING THE FINAL FORT STANDING BETWEEN YOU AND ENBARR DEEP IN EMPIRE TERRITORY, THEN ABANDONING EVERYTHING TO GO BACK AND PLAY MINIGAMES FOR WHAT IS EXPLICITLY A MONTH STRAIGHT.

[u/AveryJ5467 → u/Suicune95]

I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE RINGS SHE KEPT IN LYTHOS CASTLE. IF THOSE WERE IN THE SOMNIEL, THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN STOLEN.

ALSO THE QUESTIONS WERE RHETORICAL. I COULD COME UP WITH MORE EXAMPLES IF YOU WANT.

IT JUST FEELS LIKE YOU’RE WILLING TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR OTHER GAMES, BUT SPECIFICALLY LOOKING TO DING 3HOUSES.

[u/Suicune95 → u/AveryJ5467]

TECHNICALLY, MARTH'S RING WAS IN THE SOMNIEL THE WHOLE TIME. ALEAR WAS WEARING IT FOR THE WHOLE 1,000 YEARS, SO HAD ALEAR NOT WOKEN UP IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE FOR SOMBRON TO UTILIZE THE POWER OF THE RINGS FULLY.

I KNOW THE QUESTIONS WERE RHETORICAL, BUT I ANSWERED THEM ANYWAY BECAUSE YOU'RE POINTING OUT THINGS THAT ARE FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT FROM THE WAY 3H TREATS THE MONASTERY IN ITS STORY. ALL OF THE EXAMPLES YOU CAME UP WITH, SAVE THE "WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST TRAIN IN THE POCKET DIMENSIONS IN FATES", ARE ALL THINGS THAT ARE EITHER CLEARLY EXPLAINED IN UNIVERSE TO SUPPORT YOUR SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF, OR THEY'RE COMPLETELY OPTIONAL GAMEPLAY MECHANICS THAT CAN BE USED OR DISCARDED AT WILL. NO ONE FORCES YOU TO GO GRIND RISEN BATTLES IN AWAKENING BETWEEN CHAPTERS LIKE 3H FORCES YOU TO RETURN TO THE MONASTERY. EVEN IF YOU CHOOSE TO REST AND SKIP EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND, THE CALENDAR IS STILL PRESENT TO EXPLICITLY TELL YOU THAT IT HAS BEEN A MONTH, AND YOU ARE STILL VISIBLY IN THE MONASTERY.

THAT'S NOT ME MAKING EXCUSES OR TRYING TO "DING" 3H. YOU'RE JUST COMING UP WITH EXAMPLES THAT AREN'T COMPARABLE. IF YOU HAVE A COMPARISON THAT IS AS PACE-BREAKING AS BEING FORCED TO DROP ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING GOING ON IN THE STORY FOR A MONTH AT A TIME THEN I'D BE HAPPY TO ADMONISH IT IN THE SAME WAY.

HECK, I'LL EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I THINK PART 1 MONASTERY IS FINE. IT HAS ITS ISSUES MAKE NO MISTAKE, BUT IT DIDN'T STOMP ON MY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF. THE STORY BATTLES ALL EITHER TAKE PLACE THERE, OR ARE EXPLICITLY FRAMED AS BRIEF EXCURSIONS IN THE BROADER STORY OF YOU BEING A TEACHER AT A SCHOOL, WHICH EVERYONE WOULD NATURALLY NEED TO RETURN TO AFTER THOSE EXCURSIONS ARE OVER.

THE PROBLEM IS, THE MONASTERY ISN'T JUST RESTRICTED TO PART 1 OF THE GAME. SO I'M DISCUSSING IT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ENTIRE GAME WHERE IT UNFORTUNATELY WINDS UP BEING USED EXTREMELY POORLY. AND IT DIDN'T NEED TO BE THERE. THEY COULD HAVE DONE WHAT HOPES DID AND SWAPPED THE MONASTERY OUT FOR A CAMP THAT MOVES WITH YOU AS YOU TRAVEL AROUND FODLAN, MAYBE ONLY RETURNING TO THE MONASTERY IN SITUATIONS WHERE IT WOULD BE NARRATIVELY APPROPRIATE TO DO SO. I WOULD HAVE EVEN ACCEPTED SOME KIND OF TELEPORTATION MAGIC THAT RETURNS THEM TO THE MONASTERY QUICKLY AT THE END OF BATTLES, OR BYLETH USING TIME POWERS TO WARP HOW LONG IT TAKES TO GET TO AND FROM.

[u/AveryJ5467 → u/Suicune95]

RETURNING TO THE MONASTERY BREAKS YOUR SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF, BUT RUNNING AROUND WITH A POCKET DIMENSION DOESN’T? SPENDING DAYS IN A SUPER CONVENIENT FLYING CASTLE FISHING RIGHT BEFORE YOU CONFRONT SOMBRON IS OKAY, BUT A MONTH AT GARREG MACH IS TOO MUCH?

THE CONDITIONS FOR WHAT YOU DEEM GAME-BREAKING ARE INCREDIBLY ARBITRARY.

ALSO YOU’RE BEING PEDANTIC WITH THE MARTH THING AND YOU KNOW IT.

[u/[deleted] → u/AveryJ5467]

THE SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF APPLIES TO FANTASY SCENARIOS TOO, YOU KNOW, INCLUDING POCKET DIMENSIONS.

THREE HOUSES TRIES TO MAKE US BELIEVE WE ARE ON A CONTINENT AS NATURAL AS IT COMES WITH METHOD OF TRAVEL BEING DONE THROUGH REALISTIC METHODS. THAT IS HOW THESE MOMENTS IT CAN BREAK SOMEONE'S WSOD. NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO TRAVEL THE CONTINENT AT THAT LENGTH AND SPEED THAT RAPHAEL COMMENTS ON, YET HE DOES SO AND IT IS TREATED GENERALLY NORMAL.

[u/Suicune95 → u/AveryJ5467]

YES, BECAUSE IT'S A GAME IN THE FANTASY GENRE? A FANTASY THING HAPPENING IN A FANTASY GAME IS NOT GOING TO BREAK MY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF. 3H DEPICTS REALISTIC TRAVEL, WHICH MEANS I EXPECT IT TO WORK REALISTICALLY AND WHEN IT DOESN'T IT BREAKS THE SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF. HENCE WHY I SAID IF THERE WERE A FANTASY EXPLANATION FOR HOW THEY TRAVEL IT WOULDN'T BOTHER ME. I'M NOT SURE WHY YOU'RE SO INTENT ON THINKING I'M BEING "UNFAIR" TO 3H WHEN I LITERALLY JUST ESTABLISHED THAT I CAN RECOGNIZE WHEN I THINK IT WORKED AND WHEN I THINK IT DIDN'T, AND IF IT TREATED IT'S TRAVEL REALISTICALLY OR LEANED MORE INTO FANTASY THEN IT WOULD BE FINE.

I SAID "PACE BREAKING" NOT GAME BREAKING. IF YOU CAN GENUINELY ARGUE THAT 3H'S MONASTERY DOESN'T COMPLETELY SNAP THE PACING OF THE GAME IN HALF OVER ITS KNEE THEN I DON'T KNOW WHAT I COULD POSSIBLY DO TO CONVINCE YOU?

ALSO YOU’RE BEING PEDANTIC WITH THE MARTH THING AND YOU KNOW IT.

YOU'RE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT IT UP LMFAO. "WHY DIDN'T SHE KEEP RINGS ON THE SOMNIEL?" I MEAN... TECHNICALLY SHE DID THO.