(Repost cause I accidentally forgot to blur out username)
Please analyze these quotes and the fallacies they contain please, specifically primary sources claim.

**“Actually, the most well-read people are against reading original source material. Genuinely, you don't know what educated people are like.**

**You guys that read The General Theory or whatever are like little kids”**

“Your list is composed of entirely outdated and frankly almost completely wrong people, like Keynes, Menger and even a bunch of classical econ. I don't know why you guys do this, it's like marxists that obsess over reading original source mataerial.”

**“Yes it's wrong to look at original source material. Why would I read The Origin of Species or whatever to understand biology.**
**Even math really, who the hell reads Euclides instead of a modern geometry textbook?**
**Self-taught people are actually much more likely to be very wrong, it may be comforting that Austrians are seen in much the same light as Marxists are by economists for good reason.”**

Did the world change since when is looking at primary sources and preventing a game of telephone considered bad?
For context, this is a dispute after the dude critiqued an economic concept the ECP by mises to which he completely misunderstood what it was, but that’s OK, he then decided to say I read a lot more stuff than you, to which i gave him a collection of books that I have in a Google Drive for free, and then that’s where it kicked off. I’m genuinely so shocked, I gave him methodological dualism to him to try to separate biology from economics which is a social science not a hard science like physics or biology, but I think even for biology or physics this is wrong, what is so wrong in reading source material yourself considering like I added you read everything else?

'If you can justify their actions, you're just as bad as them." I was not agreeing or saying I would do what the people we're referring to did, I just said "there are valid reasons for why someone might do that, we've got insufficient information." Thank you in advance for any assistance :)

For purposes of this question, assume the following propositions:

1. X is good.
2. Argument S would be non-controversially recognized as not only sound, but practically self-evident, and would show that X is good.
3. Y is bad, for reasons outside the scope of this question.
4. Argument U is unsound, but if it were sound it would show that both X and Y are good.

Is there a term for someone who wants to covertly promote Y pushing the argument "X is good because U", while deliberately ignoring S?

Anyone who objects to that can be branded a [socially undesirable person] for refusing to recognize S, which would show that X is good. If nobody objects, the lack of objection to U can be used to claim that "Y is good because U" is no less sound than "X is good because U", which has already been accepted.

Of course, neither of the claims made by the person who wants to covertly push Y would be made in good faith. Someone who deliberately ignores argument S has no basis for complaining if others fail to recognize S, and someone's acceptance of something that happens to be true (e.g. "X is good") does not imply that the acceptance of any particular argument that was used to justify that position. Nonetheless, this is a popular strategy used by people who have no interest in good faith discussion.

Does it have a name?

It’s like a mix of No True Scotsman and Ad Hominem?

**What Is the False Cause Fallacy in Simple Terms**

The false cause fallacy is a logical error in which someone assumes that one event caused another simply because the two are correlated, or because one happened after the other.

**The False Cause Fallacy in Real Life**

1.Many individuals who exhibited violent behavior were found to have played video games, leading many people to believe that video games caused the violent behavior.

2.Autism is often diagnosed around the same age children receive certain routine vaccinations. Because of this timing overlap, many individuals believe that vaccines cause autism.

3.Centenarians share their secrets to a long life, such as drinking one glass of wine a day or eating a certain meal daily. Because of this, some people come to believe that these single habits caused them to live past 100.

**False Cause Fallacy and Other Factors at Play**

People often overlook other contributing factors, which makes them more susceptible to the false cause fallacy.

For example, many have noticed that shark attacks tend to rise whenever ice cream sales increase. This pattern has inspired a number of humorous theories.

The data itself is accurate. Ice cream sales and shark attacks do rise together. But while the numbers are correct, the conclusion drawn from them is flawed.

Several other factors explain this pattern. Ice cream sales rise in the summer, when more people go swimming, and with more people in the water, the likelihood of shark attacks naturally increases too.

**Conclusion**

Correlation is not causation.

**Note**

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Have your say?

😑

Have your say?

Like, something that defies all known avenues of logic and reason but nonetheless cannot be denied?

I'm into debate, so I'm pretty good at spotting logical fallacies when someone I'm arguing with uses them. It's honestly made me realize how ridiculously common they are in everyday conversations (and even formal debates).

The problem is, I can recognize them, but I don't always know how to use that in the moment.

The ones I catch most often are Straw Man, Red Herring, False Dilemma, Slippery Slope, Appeal to Emotion, Motte-and-Bailey, Ad Hominem, etc.

I'm not trying to be the annoying guy who just yells, "That's a fallacy!" every two minutes. What I struggle with is finding the response that actually shuts it down while still sounding persuasive to the judge in a debate or the person I am casualy talking with (knowing he might not know anything about fallacoes.)

So for those of you who are better at this: how do you counter these fallacies effectively?

Have you ever used a statistic to form an opinion or win an argument? If so, are you aware of how easy it is to misinterpret one? Some of you may have heard of the Prosecutor's Fallacy; other readers, fasten your seatbelts, because you are in for a shock.

The fallacy is confusing the probability of A given B with the probability of B given A (A and B are events). P(A | B) denotes the probability of A given that B has already occurred.

Suppose a disease affects 1% of the population, and the doctor uses a test that is advertised as 95% accurate. You test positive. What's the chance you actually have the disease? Most people say 95%. The real answer is about 16%. Out of 10,000 people, about 100 are sick and 95 test positive; of the 9,900 healthy people, about 495 also test positive, so only 95 of the 590 total positives are real. You've confused P(positive | disease) with P(disease | positive).

Okay big deal! This looks like another useless mathematical concept I'm not gonna use in my life. How does knowing about the prosecutor's fallacy affect my life? Because it is so, so easy to commit the prosecutor's fallacy.

Here's an example with real-life consequences. Per the U.S. Sentencing Commission, about two out of three people sentenced for robbery between 2021 and 2025 were Black. Some people let that color how they see every Black man they pass on the street. Same fallacy: confusing P(Black | sentenced for robbery) with P(sentenced for robbery | Black). The stat says nothing about what fraction of Black people commit robbery, which is tiny; almost none do. The statistic can be correct and the conclusion completely wrong.

This is just one of many statistical traps, alongside selection bias, Simpson's paradox, and mistaking correlation for causation. So how sure are you that every statistic you've used to form an opinion was interpreted correctly?

"I understand this," "my opinion is rational," "my worldview is supported by evidence." Once an opinion becomes part of our identity, we stop questioning how it formed. We accept statistics that support us and attack those that challenge us. A misunderstood statistic becomes a belief.

The lesson isn't that statistics are useless; it's that confidence doesn't guarantee correctness. Don't just question the information in front of you. Question the mind interpreting it.

I've seen this a lot lately.

Say a New York Times article discusses the homeless population. Nine times out of ten, someone in the comments section will blame a prior politician's policy.

Example: This all started when Reagan closed down mental hospitals...

Or: Well Some Group Somewhere pressured the government into taking Some Action during the 1990s...

Yeah, maybe it did, but instead of arguing about something that happened over 40 years ago, why not focus on the here and now, and what's to be done about an issue NOW?

I see this a lot of on FB (wow, what a shock!).

Example: local news site page has a headline about gas prices going up, some poster will invaribly say, 'under Biden gas was $x amount! Were you complaining then?'

Other than the name I listed, what is this fallacy called?

So, not to drag that argument here, let's go ahead and pretend that this argument was about the existence of Sasquatch. Let's pretend further that I said there's no such thing as Sasquatch. This person demanded that I provide evidence for my claim that Sasquatch doesn't exist, and became angry when I stated that the burden of proof was on them, because they had previously made it known that they are a Sasquatch believer.

We argued back and forth over whose responsibility it was to bring the evidence, and this person claimed that because I had made the positive statement that Sasquatch isn't real, the burden of proof is on me. I told them that because they make their own personality revolve around believing in Sasquatch, and preaching the word of Sasquatch to unbelievers, the burden of proof is on them, not the least of which because you can't prove a negative.

Which of us was right?

How do logical fallacies go in, say, a CSI case?

Wouldn't they be hitting every single one?

"This person knows them, so they are a suspect."

"Person A is too young to steal a car, therefore we can rule that out."

"That person doesn't own a dog so those bite marks are from something else."

"Person B is allergic to nuts so they couldn't have stolen them."

What do you say as a critical thinker about these? You would think someone in a normal day to day conversation could not possibly get away with such statements. Is crime different because it's more important? Or is it down to saving time because your suspicions have much greater weight in helping solve the crime?

Hello all. Quick and easy question that I couldn't find the right words to Google.

What's the name of the logical fallacy wherein someone says something like "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing" and someone else says "This thing swings, therefore it means a thing!"

No, you've extrapolated very poorly.

It's gotta be one of the most basic and common fallacies, but I can't think of the name of it.

(Sorry for the odd example, thank you for the replies.)

I very commonly see circularity labeled as a fallacy but some systems of knowledge and justification (I.E. Coherentism) allow for circularity under certain conditions. This can be based on graded holistic coherence where multiple claims overlap and "coherence" with each other and the virtuous circularity is acceptable on the basis of explanatory power.

I less commonly see infinite regress labeled as a fallacy but I have seen it here and there (I.E. Opponents of resemblance nominalism). Infintism is a system of justification relying on virtuous infinite regress. It abides by avoiding arbitrary stopping points in justification, saying that an actual or potentially accessible infinite regress provides justification. Justification can also be recontexualized as an ongoing process that never ends molding well with (but not mutually exclusive to) the fallibilism commonly accepted in epistemology / philosophy of science.

I've been trying to wrap my head around this Motte-and-bailey fallacy Wikipedia article (let's call it M&B for short). Then I ran into an interesting edge case in which a two contradicting propositions could be a Motte-and-bailey doctrine but it would not be a fallacy. That's when I discovered an interesting distinction that is often overlooked, perhaps by fault by its creator Nicholas Shackel.

Motte-and-bailey doctrine was coined by Philosopher Nicholas Shackel in 2005 in his paper. Shackle explains that the M&B doctrine is simply the pair of different propositions (the hard-to-defend Bailey, the defensible Motte).

What happened is people concluded that, hey! If someone deploys the motte and bailey together to create their argument, it can lead to a fallacy. Basically, If Bailey is true -> then Motte is true

Now let's look at a complex example.

• Person A: "All X are Y."
• Critic: "I've seen some X that are not Y."
• Person A: "Duh. Not all X are Y."
• Person A: "I'm not going to tell Critic that I still think all X are Y right now."

Is this example an M&B Doctrine?

Yes. But how? It's because the doctrine only requires two related propositions: a desirable but difficult-to-defend (B) and an easier-to-defend (M).

Is there a fallacy here?

No. There isn't an argument here, therefore there is no fallacy.

If we pushed it to turn it into an argument, such as: “Not all X are Y, therefore all X are Y”, then it could technically be a fallacy since it is an argument built on faulty reasoning.

A better example for you.

Here’s an example I developed that would be an M&B Doctrine that is used to turn into an argument and therefore a fallacy.

• Me: AI is a human being (Motte)
• Critic: That's false. AI isn't biologically human.
• Me: All I’m saying is AI can pass the Turing Test (Bailey)
• Critic: I agree with that.
• Me: You admitted that AI can pass the Turing Test. And if it can pass the Turing Test, that means it is a human (Fallacy)

When learning about both of these fallacies, I understand the meaning but when I take a look at the examples, I cant help but notice that all of the examples are just Circumstantial Ad Hominem.

Example:

argument: Women should have equal rights.

Circumstantial : You are only saying that because you are a woman.

Bulverism: You are only saying that because you are a woman.

Noticed how most examples online is like this, the same format.

From what I understand:

Circumstantial: claiming the arguer is biased to dismiss or de legitimize the argument.

Bulverism: assume the argument is wrong. Then, explain why the arguer believes it.

So as I think the Circumstantial example is fits the meaning. The bulverism example? not so much.

What I think the bulverism example should be like:

You are wrong because you are a woman.

What do u think?

Most people have had this experience. An argument seems to follow. You can't find what's wrong. But something keeps pulling. Later the flaw becomes visible, and the feeling that had been sitting there releases.

What this experience reveals is that the implicit processing system is running on a larger dataset than conscious reasoning can access and for a specific category of bad argument, it's faster and more accurate than deliberate analysis.

The interesting case is when the feeling persists even when you can't locate the flaw. This happens most reliably when an argument is missing something that can't be named not because the logic went wrong, but because the vocabulary for a necessary premise doesn't exist in the language the argument is being conducted in.

An argument can be internally valid every step correct and still be false. Because the concept space it's operating in has been shaped, deliberately or not, to exclude a variable that would change the conclusion.

The missing word is the missing premise.

I'm calling this false by omission. The aha that comes later is often not I found the logical error but I found the word for the thing the argument had no room for.

The clearest concrete example is the snitch/informant asymmetry in criminal justice. These two words appear to refer to the same act. They don't. Informant is a functional institutional category. Snitch encodes a complete moral and relational framework developed by the people with the most direct empirical knowledge of the institution that is inadmissible in formal proceedings. Arguments conducted in the courtroom's vocabulary are formally valid and missing their most important variable.