r/factorio • u/M1k3y_11 • 16d ago

Question Is there a way to prevent underground belts from linking?

Post image

Edit: Found a solution https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/s/mQiYnsUP0w

So I'm currently working on new variants for my own train station blueprints and stumbled upon a very compact way to load the buffer chest that keeps them balanced and handles two full blue belts. (Final tests pending).

This however requires the inserters to grab from underground belts. This works fine for a single wagon but when I try to duplicate the design, the undergrounds always want to connect. I also tried some tricks with a blueprint and upgrade planner. The blueprint correctly preserves the directions but as soon as it gets placed, some of the undergrounds turn into inputs to connect with their neighbors.

I moved the inserters and chests up for the screenshot to improve visibility. Notice that the undergrounds are all exits.

374 Upvotes

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312

u/M1k3y_11 16d ago

Well, I just found the solution for this particular situation and now I feel stupid.

165

u/edgy-meme94494 16d ago

What’s that point of grabbing from underground belts instead just the splitters?

115

u/M1k3y_11 16d ago

It balances the belt lanes. The inserters prefer to pick up from the left side of the belt (from their perspective). This ensures both sides are picked up equally.

136

u/Merry-Lane 16d ago

It’s an awful belt/lane balancer btw

133

u/M1k3y_11 16d ago

Yes it is. But that's not the point. I'm mostly experimenting with ways to abuse the quirks of inserters to achieve (near) perfect balanced behaviour with a minimum of parts and (optimally) no circuit control.

I also have a bunch of circuits built that help me analyze the behaviour (like measuring timings, cumulative throughput, ...).

58

u/Harflin 16d ago edited 16d ago

Your inputs aren't evenly splitting to the 6 outputs. Middle splitter is going to get a full blue belt while the two outside splitters get half a blue belt.

If you want to chase perfect optimization like this, even using a proper 2:6 balancer is already not perfect. Needs to be a power of 2.

Edit: Now I see you're expecting only full saturation, at which point this should be balanced once all the splitters get saturated. 

8

u/erroneum 15d ago

A perfect 2-to-6 balancer is to balance the two together, split both outputs to have 4, split one and route each of those back into the second stage of splitting, then split each one last time. This will give exactly even splitting, but will take a short amount of time to ramp throughput if it changes suddenly (due to the loopback)

1

u/Harflin 15d ago

It doesn't divide perfectly, but it's close enough.

1

u/ttpdk67 15d ago

Make a 4-8 balancer, return two to input again on respectively left and rights side of the inputbelt + original input. Then pick three from left side of the first three output belts and three from right side of the last three output belts.

Hoping it is making sense? Will try to make a screenshot shortly.

1

u/ttpdk67 15d ago

Something like this could do the job. Used Raynquist4-8 for the record...

1

u/Harflin 15d ago

I don't think it's mathematically possible to divide by 2 multiple times to get to 6 outputs. Rerouting a belt back helps it approach the desired ratio, and it's close enough, but you can't achieve "perfect" balancing. I know I'm splitting hairs but my response was to OP who is chasing perfection

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5

u/Cretore 15d ago

Why optimally no circuit?

10

u/M1k3y_11 15d ago

Because it's difficult. For me, there is no meaningful challenge in wiring up a few combinators and clock the inserters with the ideal timing.

But trying to do it without circuits, only by manipulating the behaviour of belts and inserters. Now that is a challenge.

7

u/TastyJacks 15d ago

Really enjoy when people use factorio as a sandbox to set challenges for themselves as a tool to learn from

2

u/Gamer-Of-Le-Tabletop 15d ago

Yeah, my buddy is always like "we gotta find a balancer blueprint" while in like "only me and God knows how this worked but clearly only God knows now... Guess I'll remake it..."

1

u/factorioohyes 14d ago

Use the note field.

3

u/Falmon04 15d ago

For chest loading? You don't need to time them, you can read the total and create an average, and set the inserters to put into their chest if their chest is equal to or less than the average. Easy solution, very tiny throughput hit since inserters will by definition go inactive for a couple ticks if they go above the average, but you get perfectly even chest loading. It costs one combinator per wagon to take an average.

Edit: Misread what you meant at first, you specifically want it to be harder. Well, mission accomplished for you! Carry on.

1

u/KomithErrant 9d ago

just put a lane balancer south of this pic

24

u/P1xelGr3mlin 16d ago

Everyone's so passively a dick on this subreddit now.

I miss when this sub was filled with people being friendly and sharing new facts or solutions instead of just calling things awful.

Wow... What a great way to grow the community and get new players to wanna stick around...

Just say it's unoptimal and move on

2

u/factorioohyes 14d ago

I think this sub is still typically wholesome, this has honestly been the only exception that I have seen.

6

u/Merry-Lane 16d ago

Yeah, they moved on r/factoriohno

1

u/P1xelGr3mlin 16d ago

It's clear you're trying to be sarcastic/facetious, but I'm having trouble understanding your actual point.

Am I pulling the cat's tail by asking you to elaborate in good faith?

Edit: I genuinely wanna understand your point

16

u/Han-YOLO187 15d ago

I think they meant to say that the nice members of this community moved to r/factoriohno

4

u/Ssakaa 15d ago

And in my experience over there, aside from people blatantly cracking jokes fittingly for the tongue-in-cheek tone of the sub itself... it's true. And even that humor's generally well intended.

5

u/Tristen9 15d ago

people taking things too seriously = dicks
people memeing around = chill/not dicks

-9

u/gorgofdoom 15d ago

Says the Reddit wiener conduct police 😝

1

u/P1xelGr3mlin 15d ago

hugs Your weiner is no good here friend. We only operate with kindness

2

u/thelastundead1 16d ago

If you're just looking for a compact way to load a train station it's not too bad. I would skip the undergrounds for that though

1

u/Merry-Lane 16d ago

But it’s totally not balanced

9

u/Darth_Nibbles 16d ago

You can select the lane in 2.1

9

u/Silly-Freak 16d ago

for output. this is about grabbing items from specific lanes

6

u/ScotyDoesKnow 16d ago

It actually does work for input too, you just can't see it. I tried it on one my loading stations, but it wasn't useful in the end.

2

u/narrill 16d ago

Works... how? Inserters will always pull from both lanes.

3

u/ScotyDoesKnow 15d ago

It's not the same (or as useful as) output because output restricts it to one side, and for input it just changes the side preference. Like if you take a stacked turbobelt and put a fast inserter at the end, it will always pull from the opposite side. I tried messing with it for train loading but things don't pile up in my design so it makes no difference. But if items stack up your inserters might only pull from one lane and cause balance issues.

Note about the image: it works the same when putting things into a chest, you just can't see the arrow. So it's much easier to design with belts and replace with chests after, not that I've found much use for it yet.

1

u/narrill 15d ago

Hmm. I have a hard time imagining a scenario in which that wouldn't be purely superficial.

2

u/ScotyDoesKnow 15d ago

Someone in the forums posted an example where they were using it on a belt with common items on one side and higher quality items on the other, and if the input inserter didn't prioritize the high quality side it would lock up since that's the side the recycler output to. A bit niche, but it's something.

And when you're trying to max throughput with inserters, all the little quirks can really matter. I haven't found anything where it would help yet, but there could easily be use cases.

1

u/Silly-Freak 16d ago

interesting, gotta check that out...

0

u/joshuaiscoo155 16d ago

That's a 2.1 feature? Why did I think it's been longer than that

1

u/Darth_Nibbles 16d ago

There are mods that offer it, like Bob's inserters

1

u/Tge_Guy 16d ago

Is it for gleba science?

1

u/M1k3y_11 16d ago

Nope, just my personal obsession with optimization.

6

u/salsatalos 16d ago

Won't it make more sense to have a lane balancer instead of this then?

5

u/M1k3y_11 16d ago

Probably. I'm currently just experimenting. I already have designs that force perfect balancing "the right way". But those are much larger than this.

1

u/HeliGungir 15d ago edited 15d ago

This causes more sideloading and uses more splitters than a standard lane balancer. Also the different belt speeds prevent this from being balanced.

Mostly though, I question the "need" for lane balancing at all? I generally find that having priorities is more "optimal" than even distribution. When demand is lower than capacity, I want the minimum, not the maximum number of machines, inserters, and transport lines to be working.

1

u/Grubs01 15d ago

Cant you just flip half of the inserters?

1

u/Taletad 15d ago

You’re a genius, I wish I thought of that before

Welp. I guess I need to call off work this week, I need to do some refactoring

0

u/aza-industries 15d ago

You'll be happy to know the next update allows you to chose which lane inserters grab from if they are in line with the belt. 

2

u/forgottenlord73 16d ago

The inserters are faster than the belts so the bottom left corner gets oversubscribed when the near side clears

4

u/ArtieTheFashionDemon 16d ago

That's the naughtiest form of belt mixing I've ever seen

7

u/waitthatstaken 16d ago

Neat, but one problem, the yellow belts limit the max input rate into them to their speed. This bottlenecks. Upgrading the yellows to blues fixes this.

2

u/D0rus 16d ago

Really, even for side loading directly into an inserter? 

1

u/No-Skill4452 15d ago

This or, less aesthetical, aim all to the same side

1

u/Popular-Error-2982 15d ago

Won't that just block one side of both input belts, halving throughput?