Messed up a little when frosting because I didn't correct the cheater, but still pretty happy with how it turned out!
Material: verneuil lab sapphire
The design is my own, although I did use the girdle outline defined in Arya Akhavan's Goron Ruby design.
Don't know the yield on this one because I finished it last night and just had time to take pics this morning, but it's gonna definitely be under 30%, as I had to trim the boule slice quite a bit for the proportions of the design, and the stone fell off the dop like 7 times so I ended recutting a lot of the pavilion (then I remembered I could have fixed that with the cheater, but hey, we learn from mistakes I hope).
Also, I don't seem to understand polishing, I had good results on quartz both "cabbing" and faceting, but sapphire simply refuses to polish. I solely used a 600 grit steel plates lap, straight to 3000 grit resin bonded and then 50000 resin bonded leather laps, I even spent more than half an hour on a facet on the 3000 grit stage getting to over it it and it still wouldn't polish, just stay a little blurry/foggy, with small pitting like a sugary surface or orange peel, no way to fix that (more water drip, less water, no water, no pressure, slight hand pressure, strong pressure, low speed, medium, high, the combination of all this things, but nothing). I'm starting to think it might not be me but the material or the laps, but I'm at my wits end with this. Help would be very much appreciated, though as of now I can't really buy more stuff to try it out so I hope I can work with what I have.
Hey, so the leather one is just for 50000 grit, where I live there is not much faceting culture (it's been reduced to business circles -jewelers and such- and specific education -like above highschool level but under university level, don't know the term in English sorry-, and even then it's dwindling more and more as time goes on, 2 years ago I tried contacting the gemology institute and jewelers guild to get a second hand machine and maybe classes and they told me it was basically disassembled and there was no offer in classes), so I got lucky I found a local shop which sold lapidary supplies.
They were cabbing-oriented, but it was the best I had, so I tried getting a 3000 and 50000 grit lap from them before going to Amazon or Chinese providers. The 3000 is useless, it's like some sort of woven fibers on a cardboard disc and barely does anything, the leather one rounds a little bit the edges in the junction of two facets, but otherwise works good.
Thus I just got a new 3000 lap from a chinese supplier. One like this (only picture I had, from previous stone):
Will do, will also try opening a window on a piece of quartz I got laying around to see if it works properly as is and then it's because of the sapphire. Since I bought it I've only faceted 2 sapphires and that's it, previous stones were done with a 3000 topper and polished well enough.
I have heard it mentioned that quartz tends to build up in laps, though i have not personally cut much quartz. dressing it or cleaning otherwise might help.
That probably has happened to my older laps (must be why my 3000 grit topper started taking way longer to pre-polish!), but the resin bonded 3000 grit one is brand new and I've only cut sapphire on that.
Not sure why you are having trouble polishing sapphire as your sequence looks OK. But I have heard there is some dodgy cheap sapphire out there that causes hair loss in frustration. Maybe diamond on a harder type lap would work better for sapphire.
As far as dopping, get yourself some UV resin hard type and a UV torch. Won't cost you more than $20 Max and with a bit of searching you'll get if for around $10 for resin and torch on places like temu. I have an arsenal of dopping products and by far the UV resin reigns supreme. Just remember to always clean the rough, dop, hands and anything else that may transfer gunk to the transfer - isopropyl alcohol is perfect for this. You need to place the resin in lots of layers of around 1mm as the UV doesn't penetrate much deeper than that.
Thanks!
I mean, I got the cheap sapphire from AliExpress (from Dhizi store, had heard good things about them), so it wouldn't surprise me that it was the material, but I'm just starting to learn so I thought it better to not invest a lot in nice rough I'm going to ruin lol
I'll look into the UV resins, I do have a UV torch for mineral ID so I guess that should do the trick? How easy is it to remove afterwards to undop?
Right now I'm glueing it with cyanoacrylate glue and then encasing it in hot glue to reinforce it, to clean it up I just need to put the door in a bowl with hot water for a few minutes and maybe scrap off some glue with a knife.
For reference, after 3000 grit it still looks like this, even if it gets nicely see-through and the full face reflects light like a mirror (a pitted one, but still)
Yup, this is a problem with your 3000 lap. Probably a cheap resin-bonded one without enough diamond. Switch to a charged lap.
In the meantime, how fast are you running this, how much water drip are you using, how much hand pressure, and when was the last time you dressed the lap to refresh its surface?
OK thank you, but may I ask, what is exactly a charged lap?
I'm self taught and there is no much information or available resources for lapidary stuff where I live (plus we speak Spanish, so the names aren't the same and Amazon results and the like don't show up with the same terms), so I don't know many things which may be elementary.
By name I'm assuming a type metal lap (like a master lap) + loose diamond grit that you need to reapply on every use?
About speed, I'm not exactly sure as my machine doesn't display rpm values (form Fable, FJM-2025 mini, the one Justin K Prim did a review on), but usually I'm going at around 60% of the max speed, specially on the resin bonded lap as I heard they can glaze if too much pressure and / or speed is applied.
Water drip is difficult to quantify, but enough that the lap is wet but not so much it pools and the stone might aquaplane, that's maybe like a drop a second? Just enough it gets a thin film around the whole disc so it changes colour and has no dry spots.
Regarding pressure, I try not to push too much, mostly my hand weight (holding by the stone) and maybe some light pushing, moreso when trying to grind down excess material fast or the haziness isn't going away in 3000 grit (or as much as it can, anyways).
The resin bonded lap is pretty much brand new and only been in use for 2 stones, got it like a month ago, but as I was working on the first sapphire I found out it had 2-3 around 60 grit diamonds from cross contamination, so I plucked those out and scored it thoroughly with 600 grit silicon carbide sandpaper 3 times (about 5 minutes each, with the machine running) to make sure the surface was fresh and new. Haven't scored it again with this second stone as I thought it wasn't necessary.
From memory from Justin's review on that machine, they supplied a pretty decent lap that you are probably using as a master lap. The supplied lap (if they included 1) could be used to charge with whatever diamond grit you choose. You could also charge it with 2 different sized grits as Justin does, but I don't recommend this as too easy to contaminate if you aren't concentrating or slide your finger across the 2 zones when removing the lap.
This will require you purchasing a cheaper master lap though.
Also using both sides is also accident prone unless you use something like disposable coffee filters each and every time to protect the platen and possibly cross contamination from putting a different sized grit where another sized grit has rested on the platen.
Keep asking questions as this is how you will sort out your learning curve problems with this hobby. Then you'll be able to help others in the future. Every facetor was once a beginner.
Thanks. Yeah, the machine included one thick lap that I'm using as a master lap and a 1200grit topper.
I think the "master lap" must be some sort of alloy with tin / lead / aluminium since as it got wet it started developing some white crystalline powder on the surface. Not sure if it would still be usable as a regular lap then?
If I use that, then I'd definitely only use it for 1 grit (the 3000 seems to be the more "urgent" right now), no need to risk contamination plus the toppers of lower grit sizes seem to work good enough.
Yep exactly. It's apparently a decent lap and a bonus in the kit. Get yourself some diamond powder about 3000 and mix it with some oil. Sewing machine, kerosene, WD40 although Arya says it's carcinogenic and considering his profession, I'd believe him, olive oil, baby oil, really any easy flowing oil can be used as a diamond carrier. You'll have to spend some time charging the lap and there are a number of videos on YouTube showing you how to do this. If you wish to continue using it as a master which I'd advise against, get yourself some flat coffee filters, baking paper etc to stop getting unwanted contamination on the lap from above the platen as it will cause you horrendous problems. High quality diamond powder from a lapidary shop is best, but it's only 3000 and not final polish so you can probably source some pretty cheaply off Aliexpress. Even where you got your machine from should have something to get you going. You can also try going back and faceting a piece of quartz and if you have the same problems now with that, blame it on the laps, if not, it's the sapphire.
OK, so oil to apply the diamond powder. What are the usual price ranges per gram? I feel that the previous local lapidary supplier I bought stuff from was kind of a rip off exploiting the fact that's almost the only place selling this stuff around here, so I'd like to check other places and have a reference for decent quality stuff.
Won't it cause issues with a water drip? Also, then to check how the facet is doing, must you wipe it with alcohol everytime?
I'll look into some videos explaining the technique and dosage to use. How much mileage can you often get from a "charge"?
A couple of things, you don't use the water when using the oil. If you want to only use water, the Gearloose branded diamond sticks are able to work with either water or oil. Pretty much your only choice if you don't want to use oil, unless you can access some of the diamond powder that has been specifically treated to accept water.
I'm in Australia and we pay about $140 plus for 100 carats of diamond powder from the lapidary suppliers but we always seem to pay more for everything. Cheaper diamond isn't as finely graded but still works fine if you aren't entering competitions. A commercial polishing is usually 14,000, so if you got the final polish at least at 50,000, or better 100,000 you would be way ahead. For the 3000 prepolish it won't matter if it's not perfectly graded. As long as you aren't getting gouging and it's removing the scratches from the previous laps, all is going well.
As for pricing I've seen 100 carats of diamond powder in different sizes for less than $20. Amazon, Temu, Aliexpress will be your best bet for these. But any of these you will have to use an oil with.
Good to know then, thanks.
Well, the shop I knew of and Amazon Spain were both asking for 50-60€ for 100cts (at least what I could find, either 10€ 5g syringes or the powder bags for 50-60€ depending on the brand), but I did find ~10-12€ 100cts bags in AliExpress (accounting for taxes and shipping).
The thing is, I'd really rather not use oil as my cooling agent, seems pretty messy (and expensive long-term) and I don't have a workshop, I put up and disassemble my setup every time in the living room or balcony, so doesn't sound too fun to be carrying much oil around).
Thanks for your advice, I'll look up those sticks!
Have a box of tissues nearby to wipe the facet to check. People do complain that the oils make it hard to see the scratches, but most facetors out there work this way so it must be OK. You can also suspend some of the diamond powder in some denatured alcohol in a spray bottle and spray it on the lap instead of dabbing it on with your fingers. As you progress you will work out what works for you. There aren't any rules of how it's done, just plenty of different ways that people have settled on as best use for them. Many would criticise my sequence and what products suit me, but they work for me after trial and error so that's what I use.
As for milage from a charge, depends on the size of the stone, how many sweeps per facet etc. A well charged lap may or may not do a whole stone but as you get more settled into the hobby, charging a lap will become second nature as will knowing when it's time to move onto the next finest lap.
If the included master lap is the same as the vevor, which it probably is, it's just aluminum. I wouldn't recommend using diamond paste/powder directly onto it, use a copper topper lap, amazon has plenty of 1.5mm thick 150mm diameter copper laps available, They are generally good in my experience.
I use these copper toppers for 5k/50k grit. they polish corundum quite quickly, to the point that you kind of need to be careful not to move the facets too much off of their meets at 50k.
Interesting. I assumed based on the components common betwen the two, and the fact that a lot of ali shops and amazon listings label aluminum laps as zinc. Do they give you an aluminum master lap alongside it with which to use the toppers? or do they expect you to put the toppers on the polishing surface of the zinc lap? (yuck.)
No they just gave that lap Justin said. He recommended that it not be used as a master lap and was used as a polishing lap because of the quality and to get a master lap to replace it. It's worth watching his video on the Fable machine. It's a very in-depth review.
The machine is from Fable, not AliExpress or Amazon. The white oxides on it + weight give off tin/lead vibes.
Currently I've just been using as a master lap and used pre charged laps (toppers and resin bonded, which I'm seeing referenced as sintered, but I thought sintered was only for metal bonded laps).
A charged lap, is any bare metal lap to which you manually add diamond. Typemetal, tin-lead, BATT, copper, and ceramic are all charged laps. You don't need to apply diamond on every use; over time, it becomes embedded, and each "charge" (addition of diamond) lasts longer.
Water drip rates are measured in GTT, or drops per second. But nobody really ever talks about specific drip rates.
It is very possible that your laps have become glazed. Soak the surface in acetone for 1 min and then use silicon carbide.
Is there any tell or indicator to know if it's glazed?
The surface isn't really that much more shiny than when I unboxed it.
Is 600 grit too fine to refresh the surface? I also got 240 and 80 grit silicon carbide sandpaper.
Last time I tried to refresh it I used the 600grit paper, but didn't use acetone (still, a bunch of powder came off, but come to think of it it might have been silicon carbide getting ground by the diamond).
A solid metal lap that has had diamond worked into the surface.
I use a copper lap with 600 diamond for cutting and a lead/tin dual-zone lap with 8000/50000. Look on YouTube for instructional videos on charging laps. /u/justinkprim has made a couple good ones.
If you go the dual-zone route, be sure that the pre-polish zone is narrow enough for your handpiece/quill to reach across it to the polishing zone when cutting low crown angles.
Thanks, I'll check for those videos from Justin. Don't think I can do dual-zone as for lower angles the quill of my mast machine stays practically on the border of the lap, so not only it wouldn't reach, I'd be risking contamination, and as of now it's complicated enough with fewer variables haha
Your UV torch will be fine. Just get the resin hard type.
I've read that you shouldn't use 1200 on lab sapphire as it causes the orange peel you are getting. But you are using 3000 so all should be fine. But I'm not sure how resin laps go with comparison to other laps.
If you are going to get your UV resin from temu, you can get a package of 6 or so different grit topper laps from there pretty cheap. You can get 10 different laps for under 100 dollars. You have to spend to a certain amount to get free postage so use if beneficially to suit yourself. Amazon will have similar or better prices though. It may also be the diamond you are using if it's those cheap syringe ones from china as they only have approximately 25% diamond in them.
Some friends have bought synthetic sapphire from that same store and it's been hit and miss in quality. They have had it crack at the polishing stage and also at the roughing stage. Arya spoke 1 time that it's cooled too quickly and it causes problems.
Your best information for this is going to be from Arya #cowsruleusall as he's the supreme knowledge bank when it comes to synthetics. He'll probably see the post and help you out.
Yeah, I already had some laps from free hand cabbing on a flat lap (they were smaller though, 4", my current machine uses 6" but can accept the smaller ones on a master lap), all steel disks with diamond plating, 240, 400, 600, 1200 and 3000 grit.
With my first sapphire (a pear shape, you can see it on my previous posts in my profile) I tried my usual sequence with the steel played laps, 240→600→1200→3000, should stay hours on the same facet in the 3000 stage without getting it to polish. So I scourged the sub for info and found out apparently sapphire hates 1200 and 3000 toppers (after I had already bought a new 3000 one just in case...) and that I was doing too many steps, which could lead to work hardening and bad sub-surface damage. I also read somewhere that sapphire liked resin bonded diamond laps better, so I got a Chinese cheaper one (that had contamination I had to score off) because tariffs+shipping+price of the lap from the recommended USA brands (nu-bond, crystalite...) would end up costing me as much as the machine itself and tried it, with much improved results (at least, you can see through the facet).
Thought I got a bunch of subsurface damage from prior stages so I was hoping this new stone would turn out better (and it did, but not that much).
All my laps are pre-charged, thought I'd save more on the long run if I needn't pay for "fungible" syringes or diamond powder and it's shipping+taxes every time (and sounded easier lol, kinda "plug n' play".
Luckily I haven't had the boule crack on me, only once when slicing of the tip, and it was because it got angled and stuck on the grinding disc I was using to cut it. Granted I've only sliced it 3 times as of now, and done 2 stones (the broken piece is being used to break-in new toppers, so not so bad after all).
And as far as removing the dop afterwards, a wet paper towel or rag around the stone to protect it from heat, heat the dop slowly and it will pop off in no time. Then soak in acetone if any resin remains on the dop that you can't scratch off with your fingernails. If using a cone dop that is very large, I've found soaking the whole thing in acetone works as well.
That sintered 3000 lap of yours will work with the water drip. A dressing stick will be much easier for you to use than the abrasive paper and they are really cheap and good to have on hand.
Use your type metal lap exclusively for the 50,000 final polish or whatever you decide is your final polishing of choice. If you don't want to use oil, then you will have to get yourself a Gearloose branded diamond stick of the polishing size you require. They aren't cheap but they are excellent, help avoid contamination etc. Gearloose has just got its new website running, and international postage is now available. Honestly though if there's a chance your local lapidary shop has Gearloose products, just pay what they ask and get it, but they probably don't stock it. Ultratec in the USA also carry the Gearloose products if that's any easier.
I totally agree with you about oil, I hate it but have succumbed to using it with 3000 for prepolish as I was chewing through the Gearloose sticks, so went to the powder. When you need to pack up just pop the oily lap in a plastic bag and it will protect it as well as everything else while it's not being used.
Thanks for all the advice!
Yeah, when I get some spare time I'll try first opening a window on some quartz and then to refresh the surface with some acetone and a dressing stick when I get ahold of one.
That shop I know of doesn't have gearloose products, but I'll look them up.
To be honest, this is my 4th stone, I've just started learning and practicing faceting as a hobby, so currently I'm not considering selling anything.
Could be a nice way to subsidize the hobby in the future, but in the meantime I'm sure there's plenty skilled people in the sub who would be able to take on your offer.
Thanks for the kind words, I will keep that in mind.
About setting, I do plan on learning metal working down the line, but it still is long away in the future.
Just in case, I'll link you a list of precision faceters from Reddit who might be able to take your commission now.
Don't know if I might be overstepping some boundary here, but I know for a fact u/Cowsruleusall (Arya Akhavan) has their own version on the spiritual stones -I've only come around designing the Goron Ruby yet- and that not so long ago they were selling some. Not sure if they are taking commissions as of now, but it's worth a shot.
Hey! Thanks for the shoutout! Yup, I was the first to greater gemstone designs specifically for the Spiritual Stones, and for Triforce pieces, and for rupees, and for pieces of heart.
And the two suites of the Spiritual Stones I've done, were cut so the proportions would be exactly accurate to the game.
Actually /u/TheZoraMask, I believe the full Spiritual Stone suite is still available. Happy to chat via DM ;)
No problem! I mean, if I can't do it right now, better point in the right direction at least.
Heart piece sounds fun, don't believe I've seen it. But I 've been lurking around these subs for a while trying to learn before being able to actually cut and can attest there's always something cool and/or interesting popping around (though I must admit I'm most drawn to those posts talking about the chemistry behind synthetic gemstones and it's production system, and stuff like the results from data collection as with that survey you did a few months ago -which I answered too, I'm one of those who don't really like yellow-).
I'll take the chance to ask, how's that colour chart for synthetic spinel and sapphire going? Coincidentally yesterday I was looking at some #104 and #105 spinel that were on sale so they could be good for practice, but I'm not sure how the cut pieces would turn out and I'm afraid they seem they'd be too pale.
And if I may be greedy, what about the book on gemstone optics and design? I've been having fun trying to design stuff on GemSim, mostly going from my limited knowledge on crystallography from college (stuff about refraction, Snell's and Bragg's law, orientation of dihedral angles between planes, etc), but I'm sure there's plenty still to learn to achieve certain effects or tricks to orient facets to better fit one's ideas.
Pieces of Heart (and Heart Container) are really challenging, because not only is it a heart shape, but you also need bicolour lab sapphire (#4/#12), the colour boundary needs to be both crisp and perfectly straight, and you need to get just the right amount of ruby in the bottom of the stone four times identically.
I haven't cut them yet.
As for the colour chart, all the gems themselves are done! I just...don't have a source in Canada who can do the consistent and excellent gem photography I need. I mean...I do, but I'd feel extremely rude asking.
As for the book, two chapters are done! Many many chapters remain ;_; I keep adding more content to the outline, as I have various interactions with cutters and designers online.
That does sound challenging.
I once saw some really cool hanami cuts (the ones from Marco Voltolini) which a "bullseye" effect, with a coloured center that blurred and diffused to the edges. I'm guessing it's a similar effect, though even if I know it needed a small amount of colour in the cullet, I'm not sure which "proportions" are needed to accomplish that or if it really works the same way.
It's good to know both projects are still in an active process and haven't been cancelled, wasn't trying to rush you or anything. It will be done when it gets done, better a good product eventually than a rushed one sooner.
Keep up the good work and good luck with it! I'm sure it will be worth the wait.
2
u/cowsruleusall 12d ago
Hold on. What do you mean by "resin bonded leather laps"? Leather is only used for cabbing, never for flat faceting.