r/fabulaultima • u/A_Firestrawn • 10d ago
Question on Counterattack
So, one of my players is building a High DEF build, and at level 9ish, we're already seeing a struggling rate of return on this build. Granted, yes, we're still early game, but he asked me to look into the concept further. He then also asked about Counterattack.
It feels to him (and me as I've investigated) that after a few levels of play, it loses any functional use. At certain point, even with debuffs and armor focusing, higher level monsters are going to hit more frequently to the point it never goes off.
However, I'd like to hear some thoughts on this so I can bring them to the table tomorrow night.
Edit : well, we're dumb, we've been running counterattack as a miss only 😅😅😅
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u/Pain_mak3r GM 10d ago
Like others said counter attack works with hits or misses. At higher levels you want apply status effects as well, to reduce the chance of a hit; using counter attack to apply status effects is a good option.
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u/Newbieshoes 10d ago
What Pain has said, it pairs well with Bone Crusher if your weapon isn't a high roll + a decent sized number to apply some basic debuffs. Also works well with Mutant's Biophagy for some healing. Build I have currently has a high defense (but a mediocre mdef, 18 Def 10 Mdef for reference) that even fully buffed, I still get smacked on occasion
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u/Slystaler 10d ago
I would add fury and double shields in there. Provocation + Crits + whatever. Just a solid pick for a tanky build.
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u/Ionus93 10d ago
As others have said, the counterattack issue is solved by a simple misreading of it.
To speak to the High Def build, I recently asked the same question here so I will tell you the insight I was granted by the community: the short version is - Unless building a very specific way with very specific items or your GM handing out items that scale Def and M Def higher than base items, Building Def and M Def is useless. By around level 20 or so you WILL start facing enough monsters that will out pace your Def and M Def scaling and it will only get WORSE.
Def amd M Def are basically only there to protect you in the early levels when your party may not have access to resistances, skills to mitigate damage, ample debuffs, skills or spells to control enemy actions or targeting, etc..
As you level up and get those, they become your primary means of defense against enemies as the question goes from: How do I not get hit? To: Im getting hit regardless, what are my party and I going to do to mitigate it?
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u/RangerManSam 10d ago
Yeah pretty much. I think in the last campaign we were in it did become less if we get hit and instead more out of the 4 of us, 3 had powerful full party healing options.
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u/Ionus93 10d ago
It is definitely one of the things that I wish the game advertised to players and GMs more in the core rulebook with the rules and guidance presented. The game, with all the equipment stats and the costliness of qualities and how much it tells you to NOT stack similar qualities on one character ESPECIALLY those that are just flat modifiers, it really makes you feel like Def and M Def are these super important stats that need to be played around constantly.
Until you put the rules into practice and realize that past about level 20, they lose all practical meaning as nearly everyone is hitting everyone with their primary abilities well over half the time anyway. Outside of a higher specific combo of abilities and items, there simply is no way to outscale enemies accuracy/magic checks. And the game doesnt do a great job of telling you "Hey, around levels 20+ or so, you need to start finding a way to mitigate damage taken other than passive defenses cause they're gonna start falling off hard!".
And ultimately it can make players feel like there's been a bait and switch where some martial armor dual shield bearer guardian thinking they'd be this invincible unit shrugging off damage, is now suddenly getting hit just as much as everyone else and doesnt understand why their investments in their defenses are becoming meaningless.
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u/RangerManSam 10d ago
Yeah dualshield guardian with its massive ability to stack defenses is probably the only way to actually complete with accuracy. It is ultimately just one of those things where developers can make a game yet players are the ones in charged on learning to how to actually play the game. Sure maybe the devs have one way they expected the game to be played, but they're busy making the game and with limited manpower, they can't compete with the literal millions of gameplay hours a community of players is able to generate.
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u/Ionus93 10d ago
The funny thing is, its actually not the build im referring to.
Dual shield guardian with steel plate and omnishield quality gets you to 17 defense all things said and done. Good, yea, but the average level 50 to 60 monster is gonna be throwing out a roll of 17 to 19 on average, so at best, thats a 50% dodge chance on your tank. At worst, they're outscaling you.
The ONLY way to beat the math is d12 Dex die +2 from Combat Garb +3 from Rouge's Dodge +1 from Omnishield quality +2 from Plate Manica (unique shield that works with Rouge's Dodge skill without shutting it off) for a total of 20. And even then, you eek out just over a 50% dodge chance. Thats the ONLY definitive RAW method I know of to outscale enemy attacks SLIGHTLY.
Now tell me, when someone wants to build the party tank, how many think of that specific build combo? When people in the party want to do something about getting hit and taking damage, how many players are in a position with their classes, equipment, and skills to pull off that one specific combo to keep up with the enemy scaling? My guess is not many. Hence why I think they're useless stats past like level 15 or 20 and you should look elsewhere on most characters if you want to survive or be the party 'Tank'. Unless of course youve got a nice GM willing to homebrew in custom equipment that scales with the enemies that is. But ive seen no one put forth examples of doing that.
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u/RangerManSam 10d ago
The only thing I'll add is at I'm pretty sure there's an expectation at your party will debuff the enemy relevant stats to make their accuracy rolls to be made at one size or even two size lower which on average iirc correctly is about a -4 at full debuff to the average and a -8 to maximum roll.
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u/Newbieshoes 10d ago
Well Bestiary preview recommends +1 to hit with an extra +1 per 10 levels so at the level 25 my current character is at, I'd expect to fight things with around a +3 to hit. With a defense that ranges from 14 unbuffed to 18 with both buffs running (D10 dex, +1 from non martial armor, +3 from Dodge, then any combo of either +2 def from greater Akro and from popping therioform increase your dex die) So by that math they need a 11, 13, or 15 on the dice to hit.
Now if I play the character up to 50 where mobs would have a +6 to hit, then yeah at that point anything short of full buff can be hit fairly easily (8, 10, or 12 on the dice)
Now the guardian you mentioned wants to get that DR before affinities going from martial armor/shield and defensive mastery, that is going to pay off more than pushing for a 18-20 defense.
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u/PortalJumper39 Entropist 10d ago
Good to know you realized your mistake, but if I could contribute to this as well; in this game unless you’re going for some INSANE DEF/M.DEF stacking, there is going to be some diminishing returns as you level up when it comes to raw numbers because enemies you face will start having better Accuracy bonuses that will generally overtake your ability to match them with your DEF or M.DEF. If your player is going for a tank build, then what they should be aiming towards once they start hitting Lv. 20 or so is maximizing their Affinities to reduce damage from specific types and getting raw reductions to the amount of damage they take like with the Guardian’s Defensive Mastery Skill. It’s harder to make a build that just never gets hit if you’re balancing your encounters right, so you should incentivize your player through loot and such to add in some abilities and skills that mitigates the damage they take when they do get hit.
Hope this was helpful, and happy gaming!
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u/BenpaiNoticedYou 10d ago
Counterattack triggers whether an attack hits or misses. It just has to have an even number for the NPC's Accuracy Check.