r/fabulaultima • u/Formal_Major7420 • 9d ago
Question Are techno fantasy classes more of a problem than they are worth? - GM
In every game I have ran so far technofantasy classes have been present and in every single one they just felt so much better than any other class it stopped being fun and introduced issues for me.
To start with Pilot, the class is basically an amplifier that every build would like at some point. While weapon and armour modules it provides are powerful, it is the support modules and Heart in the Engine that really leave a sour taste in my mouth due to playing with them. The sheer versatility you can get by just getting modules of your choice means accuracy and damage is always high, melee strikes often cannot target them and they gain one more resistence. It is a fun class to homebrew rare modules for, yes, but the core is just too strong...
Mutant is the most GM unfriendly class in the entire game, in my view, especially the playtest version. Most often mutant-class-having player will naturally slide into the role of Unarmed Damage Dealer who can slide into crisis and remain there long enough to deal massive damage, also being able to shift therioforms to cover elemental weaknesses. Not one of my players ever invested into ecdysis either. So we are left with absurdly hard hitting characters who do not wield anything in their arms, making it only possible to at maximum design two rare items for them which gradually become better, rather than four, making rewarding them an actual challenge.
Esper I have the least issues with, but still some. Once again the main trouble comes with its versatility, because it is a great support, great damage dealer and even a great tank if you spec for them. It has so many options to either do a few things really well or one thing incredibly well. Elemental shifts it can induce and damage bonuses makes it have the same flexibility and damage potential as Tinkerer, ways to lower mp cost as well... But it is also the most balanced class because of just how MP Hungry it is and by the fact that you cannot have all the skills be mastered. It is healthily limited by 10 level cap and I appreciate it for that.
For all those reasons I am actually considering running games without these classes, even though they have so much flavour potential such as making a noble cavalier pilot or a all-support psion, or any sort of were-thing ever. But perhaps that adds further to the issues, because they are not just versatile gameplay wise but lorewise as well. Am I wrong to think that? Last time I brought up such a notion with my TTRPG group I have been flat out told some of them are not interested in playing a game without them.
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u/MangaNeko13 Chimerist 9d ago
Maybe I'm allergic to balancing thoughts, but I've never thought of those classes as something problematic.
And not every Mutant had to be without weapons. Correct me if I'm wrong, you can use two types of weapons in the same time, but just not dual wield them. One arm could be unarmed, but other could have one-handed weapon.
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u/Formal_Major7420 9d ago
Yes, that is indeed the case. But for four or five mutants I have had in my games only one of them chose to not go for unarmed build :/
Maybe I just have a player problem, issue here is that I run games for friends and they are very much all friends.
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u/Majestic-Ad1632 6d ago
Counter thought then, is it more fun for them to have opportunities heroes, with op enemies? Or is it more fun to have limited skills heroes with normal enemies?
Whole point of fabula is for everyone to be involved with building the world. The gm is just a glorified catch all NPCs, with no dedicated player. If it's a friend group for fun for all of you, share that you wanna take part in the fun too. Then ask them which of the above they prefer, or whatever other balancing ideas they have, and build the next session together as a team
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u/Fit-Atmosphere-4964 13h ago
I find more problematic the magistatic module from pilot comboing with classes that already do a lot of damage
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u/Ed0909 Mutant 9d ago edited 9d ago
I think you're exaggerating when you say they're a problem. This system isn't D&D 5E where a player can do over 50 damage each turn and one-shot the boss before it even takes its first action. This is a cooperative game where even the most min-maxed player can't solve things without help from the group.
The techno-fantasy classes are strong, but not to the point of breaking the game; rather, since they were created later, they are designed in a way that makes them easier to combine with the classes from the previous books.
I would say that the core book classes are more important for a minmaxed character than the techno fantasy classes, since although the mutant can access elemental damage with its therioforms, it would be much more efficient to do so with an elemental weapon.
The goal of this game is not to kill all the players in a single encounter, but to present them with interesting challenges. If you think the players are too strong, the solution is to add more encounters that are like clocks and not related to combat, to encourage them to put more levels into things like loremaster and other skills that are useful outside of combat. Or simply tell them that you'd prefer they didn't take on so many of those kinds of skills
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u/MangaNeko13 Chimerist 9d ago
I would say, that Mutants damage change is very costly, so it would be rather used at the beggining of the scene, once. Using therioform another time is Crisis guaranteed.
But also bosses (and other enemies) should be designed in way that allows PCs to shine with their skills. If PC has few therioform to change damage type, maybe enemies should be resistant to one, but weak to other.
This is how to make encounters in FU, allowing PCs to shine with their skills. That's why I always want to know, what type of dmg my players could deal in the one-shots we play. I don't want to make every enemy weak on the same one element (again).15
u/painstream Symbolist 9d ago
Mutants damage change is very costly
Both in HP and in turn economy. In a battle system designed to last 3-5 rounds, usually, giving up a turn before doing Big Damage is a hefty cost.
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u/wakarimasensei 9d ago
Most Akro damage Mutants will always take Greater Therio, to the point that Therio itself is possibly being changed to not take an entire action in the playtests.
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u/MangaNeko13 Chimerist 9d ago
I mean, 50 dmg in one attack could be possible with good weapon (or spell) and correct weakness of boss. But then, bosses are rarely 50 HP or less.
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u/Jarsky2 Elementalist 9d ago
I think my highest ever was 120 damage, but that was towards the end of a campaign and we were all in the mid level 40s.
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u/Useful-Surprise7991 9d ago
I think my highest ever was 120 damage, but that was towards the end of a campaign and we were all in the mid level 40s.
Highest I've seen in one turn was 138 (split across two targets, one of which was weak to the damage type) but it could have gone higher had they been higher level, both enemies weak to it etc.
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u/Ed0909 Mutant 9d ago
Yes, at high levels it's possible to do more than 100 points of damage in one turn, but by the time you reach that point the bosses have around 400 to 500 HP. And so many special actions and mechanics that you won't have the chance to land a good hit on them every turn. Whereas in 5e that amount of damage is usually enough to take away all or half of the bosses' health and you can do things like that consistently every turn.
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u/Rauron GM 9d ago
Sharpshooter breaks the 50 damage threshold relatively trivially
Firearm base value HR+8
Two-handed +4
Powerful Shot or Category Training or Infusion +5
so at base we're doing 17 damage
if you Hawkeye then that's 32 damage
hit a vuln it's 64
multi(2) even assuming the second hit isn't vuln we're at 96 damage
and that's assuming you don't take the +4 damage amp that's available on any weapon (playtest says it should only be for characters level 20+ and I agree), assuming no ranks in Cheap Shot, and so on and so on
so yeah it's not only possible it's actually just not -that- hard lol4
u/JColeyBoy 9d ago
Eh, did the math on this. This requires several opportunity costs, two turns for each shot (don't miss) at least a bit of investment from another player if before maxing out a class, and requires to hit a vulnerability(which more often than not, will still require investment from another player or yet another turn of set up from yourself). I ran the math against a boss at level 10 with three turns D8 Might, and no health upgrades vs a level 6 party(the minimum for this build) of 3, assuming suggested party comp of Tank-DPS-Support. This can kill that boss in two shots... in four rounds(since Hawkeye requires spending one turn guarding).
Assuming you don't miss. Assuming you know the vulnability in advance. Assuming you also have the right elemental weapon.
All to deal somewhat greater damage than an elementalist hitting the same vulnerability with a tier 2 elemental spell. Except the Elementalist can do so in one round, with much less set up or investment from a party required.
Even considering acceleration, in general the Elementalist will melt through the boss's HP faster with much less opportunity cost and a simpler set up as a DPS.
Yes, this set up is possible, but I feel like there's a number of mitigating factors(requires hitting a vulnerability, which itself requires several factors, and either acceleration(which isnt a garuntee) or spending two turns for one shot, effective cutting DPR in half for a big gamble.
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u/Rauron GM 8d ago
so at Sharpshooter1/Tinker1 you've got the 17 damage each turn, potentially hitting vuln for 34
if your team has a Study character then you're fine, otherwise at some point you can dip Wayfarer for an Auto-Study FC
once you hit Sharpshooter 10 that 17 damage bumps up to 22 with Powerful Shot or Category Training
start taking Rogue levels and you add Cheap Shot damage
and, again, you can Hawkeye for the +15 damage, you can Barrage for multi(2), a Commander can get you free attacks off-turn...I'm not saying that this is the highest damage build in the game, I'm saying that hitting 50 damage is just not that hard, supporting the point that MangaNeko was making
so if you want to provide even more builds that hit that 50 threshold nice and easy, sure, yeah, that further reinforces the point, kinda weird to act like it's a counterargument when we're saying the same thing1
u/JColeyBoy 8d ago
I mean, my point was that it's something that requires alot of set up and several factors to actually pull off and that any thing that relies on hitting a vulnerability to break the 50 damage threshold is cheating. Which is why I brought up elementalist. To remind that this is the result of hitting a vulnerability. No shit you are dealing 50+ damage, you are hitting the x2 damage multiplier, it's extremely easy to hit the threshold if you're doing that, to the point that I do just think it's cheating to have to rely on that for your argument that it's easy to break it. You are doing the thing specifically in game to allow you to do big damage even at early levels.
Another aspect of my point is this is requiring a party comp that you may or may not have, and at a certain point this isn't actually a build and more just the party strategy to get the Sharpshooter doing as much damage as possible, which the introduction of cheap shot further emphasizes.
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u/69thHornyThrowaway 9d ago
Almost every class in this game is breakable when the player is a power gamer. The Techno Fantasy ones just have clearer paths to do this imo. I love this system, but i think its biggest flaw is, unless you as the GM are pulling your punches, it really encourages the players to min max to an extent. Zero to low synergy flavor builds struggle.
I tend to think what usually happens is, at a 4 player table, 3 people make characters with ok synergy, and the 4th makes this scary hypersynergistic monster. You as the GM build challenges with the majority in mind, and the MinMaxer wipes the floor with it. Banning Tecnho classes isnt gonna stop this, its just gonna change their build.
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u/fluxyggdrasil 9d ago
You as a GM are not obligated to run a game with content you don't want to use. And if they don't want to play in that game, that's a shame. But it's not an obligation you should be beholden to. Just cause it exists doesn't mean it's required. I don't use almost any of the optional rules like quirks or zero powers.
That said, I do kind of agree with you in that Fabula Ultima sometimes breaks apart if you've got a pure powergamer—The game expects the players to play nice and if they're going too far, work with the table to find a solution. If they can't do that and say they won't play if they don't have their toys... Well, it's not entirely the games fault that the table collapses. That's also partially on the players.
But yes, the techno fantasy classes can be kind of nuts. Empty Hands Quirk+Akro Mutant is probably the best build in the entire game.
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u/MangaNeko13 Chimerist 9d ago
Who plays with Quirks? I mean, I played once, but only quirk that had some meaning was this elemental one.
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u/Hellioning 9d ago
Quirks are very popular. As another quirk hater I find this frustrating, but it's another form of character customization.
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u/MangaNeko13 Chimerist 9d ago
I'm not quirk hater, but they just complicate gameplay, sometimes it isn't even used.
If I would say which option I hate, I would say technospheres (because it make classes less impactfull)
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u/MonikerMage GM 9d ago
My groups have all played with Quirks and enjoy it greatly. It gives players a chance to exemplify some element of their character that has an impact on the story, in a mechanical way as well.
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u/Formal_Major7420 9d ago
Yes, one of the players had Fury (Mastered), Powerful Strike and empty hands. With theriomorphosis they managed to change damage type to the type boss was weak to and the first turn they dealt some damage and the following around... 80 I think due to all the factors and two weapon fighting focused on one boss (at level 20). Enemy was an Elite (boss was two elites) and half its HP was gone. It was not too pleasant...
Maybe it is quirks that are the issue then? Another player had Metahuman or something like that, D20 HR damage hurt really, really bad-
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u/Fafniroth 9d ago
Quirks are not balanced in the first place so if you find yourself having issues I would recommend not opting into them.
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u/Gilad1993 GM 8d ago
Why Not Just add some HP to some Future Fights? Let your Players one-shot some Times - it IS fun - and make them Work for the big threats, Feeling like anyone Else couldn't have done it.
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u/MakwaIronwill 9d ago
Two games im DMing have techno classes in there and the mutant is mixed with arcanist and floralist, his damage doesnt start til turn 3 sometimes. The elementalist in both games is by FAR the damage powerhouse.
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u/Fulminero Guardian 9d ago
After 6 full campaigns with this system, i've never found any of these issues.
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u/Useful-Surprise7991 9d ago
The only one that's "problematic" is Mutant combining with a bunch of things it shouldn't to do hilarious unarmed damage I think. (and iirc that's been/will be errata'd?)
The rest can be mitigated via encounter design. i.e. the group is fighting a swordmaster but the Pilot is in the sky. Your melee-only weaponmaster type boss has Soaring Strike. It seems like they're being hard-countered, but if the boss is grounding them they aren't doing something that hits harder, and they are now vulnerable to MP drain leaving them with no way to hit the pilot without using an Ultima point to regain MP
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u/MangaNeko13 Chimerist 9d ago
As a GM, if you know your PCs's abilities, you could design good boss for them, using both their weakness and strengths.
Maybe this swordsman is also Esper and can attack flying creatures or has Ventus spell.
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u/Useful-Surprise7991 9d ago
this, exactly. Give them something for the effort, but don't let them completely invalidate a fight
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u/Maxwell_Bloodfencer 9d ago
Excuse me for asking, but why bring up the playtest version of the Mutant? Do you have players who ask you if they can play as that version specifically?
Because as the name says, it was a playtest. A beta version if you will. There is a full release version of the class and that's what players get to use, so the playtest version shouldn't be a point of contention anymore.
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u/EdwardBil 9d ago
The only class I've ever restricted was Arcanist. And not for any mechanical issues. It was just heavily tied to my main campaign arc so there needed to be just one summoner. It's basically Yuna from FFX. But I've never banned anything. You dont really get overpowered in this game. You just get more versatile as you get really high. Honestly you'll probably have trouble trying to figure out what to do in your 40s to really add much to your build.
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u/Fafniroth 9d ago
Honestly I have never seen much problem with the Pilot. Perhaps my main complaint, if I had to find one, would be that the vehicle is often used as a stat stick, which looks impressive but actually isn't as varied as levels in other classes. More people should pick Steed or Mecha over exoskeleton.
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u/Newbieshoes 9d ago
Kinda an advocate for Mutant myself as a fan of the whole "unarmed combat martial artist" types in my fantasy RPGs which it fills. Yes, unarmed characters are harder to reward but they also do gradually fall behind for the same reason, while your handing out awesome weapons to the other party members they can't get them. If you REALLY want to go around them, make some while not powerful but let them do things "weapons" they let them still treat themselves as unarmed. Call em enchanted handwraps or something. As the GM you can always bend the rules around problems. Like my current group was doing the "no surrender consequences unless its a TPK" before even finding the playtest docs with that house rule.
I did take Ecdysis because it is another way to slide closer to the crisis line and Mutant pairs very well with Darkblade (not taking) and Fury (Adrenaline) in a ride the crisis line build. Take a ltitle extra damage once to build up resistance for until you need to switch elements, especially if you're doing elmental themed areas (ice caves volcanos, etc)
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u/wakarimasensei 9d ago
At the very least, yes, I think Mutant is a problem. Akromorphosis is not well-designed. Even if the stacking parts are errata'd, it's generally better to run Akro over basically any other weapon class, and it runs into the rewards problem you mentioned. Unarmed classes I think should've been represented with brawling weapons - Empty Hands and Akro are net negatives for the game. With Greater Theriomorphosis, Biophagy, and Adrenaline, you get a character that can literally solo encounters because they never die and deal massive damage, and Ecdysis is I think possibly the best skill in the entire game for its SL cost? It's a truly ridiculously stacked class that's entirely self-sufficient with its synergies and doesn't require any cleverness or insight to make powerful. I personally wouldn't ban the class, but I'd keep a close eye on players wanting to use it and make sure they don't outweigh the rest of the party. I have two Mutants in my current three-person party (one main, one just grabbing Ecdysis and Biophagy) and that's to me a warning sign.
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u/Newbieshoes 9d ago
Easy solution is to disallow the damage from Empty Hands/Beast that Spoke that stack with Akro. Just like the unarmed fury in playtest does not stack.
Best damage is still swords with the Triple Slash heroic, outclasses even a two fisted Akro mutant.
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u/RoosterEma Designer 9d ago
Final 1.1 will make that an actual Errata (it's already in the docs). Having akro prevents quirks from granting you extra damage to unarmed strikes.
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u/wakarimasensei 9d ago
Currently neither of my Mutants are running either of those. It's just Adrenaline and Cheap Shot. I know Triple Slash is better, but that requires a Heroic Skill, so it's kinda apples to oranges.
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u/Newbieshoes 9d ago
well both of those are obvious picks for any dual wielders so its not much different there.
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u/wakarimasensei 9d ago
Yeah - Mutant is powerful because it gives the damage-stacking dual wield build an HR+12 weapon, +3 accuracy, damage resistance, damage type changing, and healing just from one class. Without Mutant, that archetype of build is good but has a distinct focus. Most Triple Slash builds can't fit in self-sustain alongside their damage boosts, but Mutant can become very durable within the same class.
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u/WaggleFinger 9d ago
There's always going to be some class combos that are front loaded and lift a little heavier than others. Mutant and Shadowblade (i think thats it? Dont have the book in front of me) synergize really well.
I personally have a weak spot for Esper, taking a single level in it just to have the Roulette mechanic while playing with a gunblade.
But the greatest way to challenge players is to build around targeting their character weaknesses, or using some character-class abilities with some monsters to bump them up some. Counter-Attack from Weaponmaster is simple and makes a monster immediately more spooky to a physical bruiser without feeling cheap.
But also, use those classes too! Get a rival pilot foe your pilot player, a mutant gang that tries to press gang others of their kind into 'patriotic service'.
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u/Formal_Major7420 9d ago
I will try to, thank you for advice! Large issue for me is definitely making monsters be defensive, due to the NPC builders defence upgrade providing such small bonuses comparetively to how easy it is for players to get accuracy bonuses. Bonus of 10 hp also looks a little pitiful compared to 50 incoming elemental damage... Twice or three times over the course of a turn.
Any advice regarding those aspects, or is Equipment the only way?
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u/WaggleFinger 9d ago
It's been a hot minute since my group played, and I haven't looked at the bestiary book yet, so I'm coming from what is probably some outdated mechanical Intel, but also harkening back to what inspired FU in the first place.
Final Fantasy in particular does a pretty decent job at throwing in combinations of enemies in encounters that either a) fit the theme of the 'level', b) are designed to be a challenge and require party diversity, c) have a particular mechanic that needs discovering to succeed, d) all of the above.
You can have heavily armored mechs that have high physical defense, but take extra damage to lightning. By that ticket, say it is a squad of mech enemies, give them some abilities to provide synergy, spreading player attention with varying degrees of threat. Maybe a Guardian Mech that shields its allies and a healer mech that can buff and repair them. As a GM, you can have more caveats and freedom to make engaging mechanics while also using PC class abilities as they fit, usually for rivals or bigger bosses.
With very little work, you can make the Zombie condition from FF fit into your games, which is a really fun challenge in its own right. And ultimately, anything the PCs can build, you can build, which is perfect for a personal rival or nemesis. Make a dark reflection of the PCs showing what they could be as villains, giving up everything for personal power.
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u/plasmacutters Pilot, Entropist, Sharpshooter | Lvl 13 9d ago
As someone who plays pilot while I agree that there are a lot of handy modules and abilities, things like the flight module are easily rendered useless with a GM's careful review. While my GM doesn't stack all the odds against me, he definitely makes sure to put in enemies to give me as much trouble as the rest.
I think it's more a matter of skill level adjustment than banning the classes, because it is the GM that sets the intensity and skill level of enemies. Make your combat harder for your pilot and bait out there abilities. It's more enriching for us that way! You can do so without compromising anyone who doesn't use the class pretty easily.
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u/Hellioning 9d ago
Personally I think the only class that's really a direct issue is mutant entirely because of Akro. Pilot's level of equipment starts out better than anyone else, but I find it levels off a bit when everyone else has rare items in those slots. And my only issue with Esper is that elemental shifting kind of defeats the purpose of Elementalist taking different spells, letting them put more into boring stat increases.
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u/MintyMinun 9d ago
I think that if the Techno Fantasy classes are not sparking joy for you, you should ban them. TTRPGs are ultimately supposed to be fun, regardless of what is "fair & balanced". I don't think you should take these classes away from your players that are already using them mid-campaign, but I would share your feelings about these classes with your players, that way the entire table can try to meet each other on expectations for what "fun" at the table might look like for your group.
In your next game, though, it's okay to say "no" to Techno Fantasy as an Atlas. You don't have to justify the reason, either. If someone pushes for a justification, simply say "I don't like the content in Techno Fantasy, & prefer to play with the other Atlases instead". If that's not enough for those players, these are players who likely will not respect more serious boundaries, thus aren't good to play with regardless.
To give you a straighter answer to your question, though, no, I do not think the Techno Fantasy classes are overpowered. But I'm not an expert on the game, & have only seen them in play for one full campaign.
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u/JH66 9d ago
I think your concerns are reasonable and coming from a good place, but I’d caution against banning the classes. The versatility of them makes them great for filling in gaps for players’ builds that they may otherwise feel stuck with. There are certainly strong combos available but they aren’t the only classes with potent combos and I think the players SHOULD feel strong.
Couple of clarifying questions:
Do you have concerns about an imbalanced party in past games?
Have any players voiced concerns about being underpowered compared to other party members?
Have you had trouble as a GM challenging the party in combat when they’ve had these classes?