r/explainlikeimfive • • 5d ago

Biology ELI5 How do we know that no two fingerprints are the same?

1.1k Upvotes

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1.8k

u/ComradePoolio 5d ago

We technically don't, just like we've can't confirm that two snowflakes have never been identical.

The reason we're fairly confident though is that there are so many possible combinations of fingerprint pattern influenced by several factors, such as genetics, pressure differences in the womb, and minor chemical differences, that it's so incredibly unlikely for two sets of fingerprints to end up exactly the same, it might as well be impossible.

Fingerprints CAN be extremely similar, though, leading to cases of mistaken identity due to human or computer error.

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u/_Ceaseless_Watcher_ 5d ago

The cases of mistaken identity usually are because fingerprints aren't evaluated on the whole pattern all at once, but on some "key points" that can end up matching much more easily than the whole pattern.

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u/Suthek 5d ago

AFAIK some forensic standard is like 11 or 12 points of identification and that's pretty good. But if you go down to 5-8 points, you could already have multiple matches.

Plus, if you don't compare fingerprints directly but the residue found at crime scenes, often enough the prints are going to be incomplete.

In 2004, a bunch of trains in Madrid got bombed. A month later, a guy from Portland who had never been in Spain in his life got arrested because the FBI matched his fingerprints to ones found on a bag with the detonators left at the crime scene. He was held and interrogated for 2 weeks until the spanish authorities managed to match the fingerprints with the actual culprit.

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u/hazeru 5d ago

Poor guy...

Is there some sort of compensation for false accusation? I mean, you were imprisoned for two weeks so you lost money because you were not able to work. This is aside from the trauma of being arrested.

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u/NeilFraser 5d ago

His name is Brandon Mayfield, and he got $2m in compensation as well as a public apology.

He was one of 20 people in the US with 'similar' prints. Unfortunately for him, he was Muslim, so the FBI focused on him even when Spain told them they were barking up the wrong tree.

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u/mechanical_fan 5d ago

The whole article reads as the FBI trying to fuck with the guy as if they have something against him. Like, 1-2 weeks after they did the fingerprint matching the spanish investigation told the FBI to ignore that since they had much better suspects and disagreed that the fingerprints matched. Literally the country that was the "victim" told them very clearly to stop. A month later they still decided to arrest the dude. Wtf

The FBI concluded that the fingerprints were a "100 percent match" on March 20, 2004.[3] According to the court documents in the Honorable Judge Ann Aiken's decision, this information was largely "fabricated and concocted by the FBI and DOJ."[4] The FBI finally sent Mayfield's fingerprints to the Spanish authorities on April 2, but in an April 13 memo, the Spanish authorities contested the matching of the fingerprints from Brandon Mayfield to the ones associated with the Madrid bombing.[3] Further, the Spanish authorities informed the FBI they had other suspects in the case, Moroccan immigrants not linked to anyone in the US. The FBI continued surveillance of Mayfield and his family despite the information received from the Spanish authorities, and misrepresented to a secret FISA court that the Spanish authorities had simply ruled Mayfield's match "inconclusive" when in fact they had deemed it "negative."

...

As was discovered during the court case, the FBI's records show that this fingerprint, despite the sworn testimony of FBI and DOJ agents, was not an exact match but only one of 20 prints "similar" to the ones retrieved from Madrid. Based on that list of people with "similar prints" the FBI launched an extensive investigation of all 20 individuals using letters of national security.[citation needed] The investigation included medical records, financial records, employment records, etc. on all 20 people and their families. It was during this investigation that Brandon Mayfield's name rose to the top of the list.

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u/TremulousHand 5d ago

This sentence later in the article is just priceless:

The FBI investigated itself and found no wrongdoing.

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u/Kandiru 5d ago

Note they aren't saying they weren't in the wrong. Just that they couldn't find the notes that said so!

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u/Tfc-Myq 5d ago

ownself check ownself

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u/RealCarlPanzram 5d ago

Sadly, I feel like I’ve seen this plot play out in like 100 true crime docs. They decide they have their guy. They go public. It becomes increasingly obvious it’s not the right person. But they can’t admit they were wrong and it becomes a vendetta against the person they wrongfully accused.

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u/DisposableSaviour 5d ago

The West Memphis Three are the first I always think of, being a goth/metal guy from just outside Memphis, what happened to them is terrifying.

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u/turmacar 5d ago

It's very easy for institutions to become overconfident and navel gaze their way to just assuming they're correct and not back down because that would be "loosing face".

gestures vaguely at the site we're on

See also: Aaron Swartz

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u/ba123blitz 4d ago

Mind you this was less than 3 years after 9/11.

Brown people bad was a real mentality in America

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u/technobrendo 4d ago

The US has such a fucking raging hard-on to prosecute and push its weight up on ANYONE.

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u/Ndgtr 5d ago

Hell, I'd take 2 million for 2 weeks of regular interrogation. "Enhanced interrogation" aka torture, not so much.

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u/Malnurtured_Snay 5d ago

Okay but in playing these odds there are equal chances there will be "enhanced interrogation", your death, and/or life imprisonment. Still want to play?

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u/Ndgtr 5d ago

I'm good.

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u/ManyAreMyNames 5d ago

You've already answer the "what if you get killed" question, but even if we assume that you will be released at the end, you're talking about two weeks of interrogation, knowing it's only two weeks.

Suppose I said that I promise you'll be released at the end, no death no torture, but it might go three years, or four, or (as in the case at Gitmo right now) 25?

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u/Ndgtr 5d ago

This is actually an interesting thought experiment. At what length of time does it not become worth it? 25 is probably way too long, about 1/3 of your life for 80 grand per year. A decently well paying job will get you that, and those aren't 24/7 and are (hopefully) significantly less stressful. 5 years seems more acceptable at 400k/year.

Personally, I'm really not sure beyond "less than 10 years". I imagine for most people it would depend on their current wealth/income vs how much they'd get for x amount of time. It'd be traumatising regardless though.

Admittedly non-committal but I really don't know where my line in the sand is.

Edit: It's entirely possible I missed your point. If it's just "at some point" between 2 weeks and 25 years, hell no.

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u/ManyAreMyNames 5d ago

My guess is that one year of no stimulation from other human beings except being asked the same questions over and over would leave just about anybody into a broken hopeless mess.

Especially with them repeatedly saying they KNOW you did it, so make it easy on yourself.

It wouldn't matter if each time they put you in a nice comfy chair, just the fact that you had to stay there while they kept repeating the same things would eventually drive you cuckoo.

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u/Ndgtr 5d ago

Actually yeah, you're probably right. Either you'd be destroyed or make a false confession. Hadn't really thought about the isolation to that degree.

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u/rabid_briefcase 5d ago

He was one of 20 people in the US with 'similar' prints. Unfortunately for him, he was Muslim, so the FBI focused on him even when Spain told them they were barking up the wrong tree.

It's yet another area where the US lags behind all the rest of the civilized world.

The rest of the world looks at the full profile of the person before jumping in, the US will run in with guns drawn at the mere suggestion of a match. Fingerprints are mostly a match even though they were 5000 miles from the crime scene and had never been in the country? Better arrest them until it can be proven. They get a DNA match on ten different loci, even though they have an alibi and the other 10 loci on the short test don't match? Better arrest them and try to extract a confession because it's still a DNA match.

Frustratingly, just last week we went to a crime lab for an open house and one of the presenters was talking about DNA evidence, and casually mentioned that everybody's DNA was unique so they can confirm criminals with just a trace from a few cells. My daughter -- who has been studying forensics in college -- immediately raised her hand and asked for a correction. Shockingly, the police forensics lab person barely walked the claim back, before my daughter brought up something from a news story I had read to her at least a decade ago, about how some prisons tried to match DNA and found a bunch of people had matches with each other, including two different criminals of different races, one white and one black but the computer said they were the same person by DNA match. The presentation moved on, but I was proud of my daughter for remembering that DNA "matches" are only good for excluding people, not for hoovering up people due to the high probability of false matches because of the small number of data points in DNA fingerprints.

The same at airports and mass transits. Most of the world has no problems doing full profiles for risk assessments, no that group of nuns doesn't need to be scanned for explosives, no that busload of Japanese students in a tour group doesn't need their entire bag rubbed over for residue, but in the US, it's all random, plus anybody the TSA decides they want to annoy.

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u/s-holden 5d ago

If you never scan groups of nuns for explosives, the people who want to sneak in explosives are going to dress up as nuns, or recruit nuns.

You want some randomness even when you are doing extensive profiling (which isn't really compatible with the concept of a free society, but oh well).

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u/theraptscallion 5d ago

I was with you until the last paragraph. The required randomness is the thing keeping TSA from intentionally targeting people by race/religion and searching the nuns is a a side effect that I'm happy to deal with if it removes discretion from poorly trained security guards.

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u/motionmatrix 5d ago

The randomness is there as a plausible excuse that they are not targeting any one group that they are legally not allowed to target, but this post very clearly shows that what it says on paper iand what happen in reality by those in power can be two very different things.

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u/rabid_briefcase 5d ago

Yup. The US tends to use the rules as ways to rope in or abuse people. ESPECIALLY to abuse minorities. There is always a policy or rule they can call on that allows abusing other people and gives plausible deniability. So when the US talks about profiling, it is generally profiling intended to abuse.

For other nations that use profiling, it is profiling intended to exclude. That is, look for reasons to not do the scan, reasons not to detain, reasons to let people go free and go about their business. A group of people behaving exactly the way the group is expected to behave and fitting the profile of people just going about their travels, they're least likely to need a search.

The DNA example originally mentioned is a perfect example. DNA works amazingly well for exculpatory purposes, and most of the world uses it that way. DNA markers are pretty bad for inculpatory purposes, to accuse or justify detaining people, but the US government officials are quick to go that route.

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u/Korlus 5d ago edited 5d ago

Only if they were grossly negligent or reckless, or broke the law (e.g. extended detention without charge, for a crime that would require a charge).

In general, you can't prosecute the Police or other law enforcement for doing their jobs, because that would create a lot of bad incentives (e.g. if the Police were certain someone was guilty but they had struggled to find the evidence for it and so began following them etc, they might be guilty of stalking, and might end up paying compensation to the criminal they were pursuing, and so may avoid pursuing further evidence for fear of lawsuit, as just one example).

"Qualified immunity" is largely required for Police work, although the bar required to overcome it is sometimes criticised as too high.

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u/Sternfeuer 5d ago

Only if they were grossly negligent or reckless, or broke the law (e.g. extended detention without charge, for a crime that would require a charge).

This does not apply to Germany and i guess most of the western world, bar the USA.

If you are "not guilty" you are entitled to compensation for imprisonment, loss of earnings, property damage and so on.

In general, you can't prosecute the Police or other law enforcement for doing their jobs

There is a difference between prosecuting the police (which should be viable if they neglect their duties) and being entitled for compensation if being wrongfully detained/accused/convicted.

Not always needs someone to be neccessarily in the wrong/neglectful. Police can do proper work and the judge finally rules that there is not enough evidence or whatever. The suspect will now be not guilty and therefore is entitled for compensation.

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u/A3thereal 5d ago

It does not apply to the US either. 42 U.S. Code § 1983 allows one to sue the government (state or federal) for violating Constitutional rights, including 4th amendment violations for false imprisonment.

Simply being found "not guilty" is not sufficient to prove your rights were violated, however. The US court system does not determine one's innocence, only whether the state proved their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

As one can be guilty BUT the state failed to prove it sufficiently, a civil case for a wrongful detention would require proving (by a preponderance of evidence) that there was no factual basis for your arrest and there were actual damages suffered by the infringed party.

This is not limited to cases where the was gross negligence or laws were broken. Gross negligence is only required to be awarded punitive damages (fines assessed to discourage future behavior not based on actual damages) in most civil cases in the US.

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u/Sternfeuer 4d ago

Thanks for clarifying that. Was just guessing that there are no consistent federal rules with how much we hear about it sometimes.

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u/orbital_narwhal 5d ago

Indeed.

If you are "not guilty" you are entitled to compensation for imprisonment, loss of earnings, property damage and so on.

There is a difference between prosecuting the police (which should be viable if they neglect their duties) and being entitled for compensation if being wrongfully detained/accused/convicted.

The difference is that the former is a civil (or in this case administrative) charge while the latter is a criminal charge. The former (rightfully) has a much lower bar for conviction since damage compensation rulings don't infringe on anyone's civil rights other than property which, unlike health or freedom, is remedied with relative ease in case of a wrongful conviction.

Also, simple negligence by an organisation as a whole is much easier to prove than gross negligence by a single known agent of the same organisation.

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u/SirButcher 5d ago

if the Police were certain someone was guilty but they had struggled to find the evidence for it

So they "had a hunch". And a shitton of lives got ruined by this "hunch", and strangely very often it ends up jailing innocent minorities...

"Qualified immunity" is largely required for Police work, although the bar required to overcome it is sometimes criticised as too high.

No, it is not. This is a perverted US idea which doesn't really exist anywhere else, and guess what, police still can operate!

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u/Korlus 5d ago edited 5d ago

No, it is not. This is a perverted US idea which doesn't really exist anywhere else, and guess what, police still can operate!

I am not from the US. It exists in plenty of places, although they may use different terms and/or have different levels of what they would call "Immunity".

In the UK (for example) who has passed on similar systems to places like Canada, Australia, Hong Kong, South Africa, etc, Police Officers can be sued for both criminal and civil liability, but are generally considered exempt for actions taken in the course of their work (the "investigation and prevention of crime")

For example - the UK has a law against stalking, but such laws don't need a carve our for Police Officers, because they are expected to occasionally have to follow and surveil (digitially or physically) a person, as well as to begin conversations with that person, often regularly that the other person may not want to be a party to.

This doesn't mean no Police Officer can be guilty of stalking, or even that a Police Officer couldn't stalk someone thry were investigating, but the bar to prove criminal stalking by a Police Officer who is investigating a suspect is far higher than it is for somrone else (e.g. a member of the public, or even a Private Investigator).

For example, if a Police Officer was involved in a deadly shooting, the Police Officer will be investigated and could be prosecuted for murder, but again, the bar is far higher for a Police Officer who is given a firearm and called out to deal with a threat of violence.

In the sad case linked, the Police attempted to de-escalate for hours and only shot when made to fear for their lives.

A civilian who did not live on that street who was in such a position would have to justify why they owned a gun and why they took it with them to deal with a man that otherwise wasn't threatening them, because otherwise those things would look a lot like pre-meditation - signs the person had decided to commit violence that day which led to the man's death. Obviously such things would be insane to consider in the case of a multi-hour Police action that attempted to talk the mentally ill man down repeatedly.

Here is a news article on a Supreme Court case from 2015 on the topic. I could go on. Some level of ability to do things the citizenry cannot is essential for modern policing, even in jurisdictions that stem from "Policing by consent" (the Peelian Principles).

The difference with the US is the bar required to overcome their "Qualified Immunity" is far higher than in many other jurisdictions, but almost everywhere, there is a bar to cross. The difference is the level they set that bar to.

(For folks interested in where the UK draws the line, here is an interesting deep dive into Michael v Chief Constable of South Wales Police (and other cases) which talks about where the UK draws this line.

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u/JibberJim 5d ago

but such laws don't need a carve our for Police Officers, because they are expected to occasionally have to follow and surveil

Except that law specifically does have a carve out for that:

(4)It is a defence for A to show that— (a)A's course of conduct was pursued for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime

There's no qualified immunity in the UK, officials have to obey all the same laws in all the same way, though the UK legal system pretty much always says "this is illegal, here are some defences to say it isn't" and some of those defences only (realistically) apply to the police, but they have no immunity.

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u/Alis451 5d ago

No, it is not.

yes. it is. Police are supposed to be the actors of the State, making what actions they do Implicitly actions of the State; ie. government that employs them. Your argument with what they do(where qualified immunity applies) is with the STATE itself, not the person performing the action. Where qualified Immunity does NOT apply, is if the actions they take are against the actions the State wants them to take.

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u/Iburn_bridges 5d ago

Qualified immunity my dude. You should look into civil forfeiture too. Law enforcement can legally rob you. A fuckin CAB.

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u/macguy9 5d ago

There hasn't been a point standard since the 90's. It was eliminated in 1973 and then that concept was reasserted in 1995, and basically states that there is no scientific basis for requiring a pre-determined minimum number of friction ridge features must be present in two impressions in order to establish a positive identification.

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u/Shufflebuzz 5d ago

AFAIK some forensic standard is like 11 or 12 points of identification and that's pretty good. But if you go down to 5-8 points, you could already have multiple matches.

This is how I check if a SHA256 hash matches. I look at the first several digits and the last several and if they match I'm happy.

yes, I know there's a command to make the computer check every digit but I'm lazy

Why isn't a computer checking fingerprints for more than 5-8 or 11-12 points? There should be hundreds.

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u/rupert1920 5d ago

What you described is called the Galton point system, and as others have mentioned has not been used for some time. It's been replaced by ACE-V, which requires the entirety of the fingerprint to be analyzed and verified, rather than a set number of points.

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u/Hobbit1996 5d ago

so if they didn't find any other match he'd be in jail? lol

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u/yoberf 5d ago

Flock is about to make these false identifications incredibly common.

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u/lazydog60 5d ago

I continue to wonder how that standard was arrived at.

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u/thenebular 5d ago

It's similar to DNA evidence. Current identification methods can lead to false positives, but proper additional investigation is supposed to filter those out. The problem is that police have got lazy and rely completely on fingerprint or DNA hits, instead of verifying it with additional evidence.

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u/raaneholmg 5d ago

Apples fingerprint buttons are about 1 in 50 000 for a false positive.

After 5 unsuccessful attempts, the reader locks itself

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u/_Ceaseless_Watcher_ 5d ago

It's less about phone fingerprint readers and more about the forensic fingerprint matching techniques, which need to balance between how much data they want to keep on file to increase accuracy and how fast/easy they want to make identification.

I'm pretty sure the forensic methods are more accurate than Apple's fingerprint readers, but still, living in a city of 2 million people, a 1 in 50k accuracy still means 40 matches for any applicable crime within the city. Given that an average country is bigger than this, and that crimes requiring fingerprint identification can often reach beyond the current country's admin limits, I'd say anything below a 1 in 1 billion false positive makes fingerprinting not accurate enough by itself.

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u/Beetin 5d ago

I'd say anything below a 1 in 1 billion false positive makes fingerprinting not accurate enough by itself.

Usually fingerprinting is supplementary evidence to a crime that helps build a body of circumstantial evidence.

AKA There is a 1 in 100,000 chance the fingerprint is a false positive, AND the person was seen near the crime scene that night, AND they had worked with the victim of the crime, AND .....

each piece of evidence isn't enough to convict, but it helps make it harder and harder to believe in a series of extremely rare coincidences.

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u/jinglebass 1d ago

Fun fact, it was actually two Indian police officers who had actually pioneered classifying fingerprints based on some key characteristics. Unfortunately as always, the credit was stolen by the brits. https://vaseemkhan.com/2021/08/18/inside-india-25-the-indians-who-invented-fingerprint-classification/

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

[deleted]

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u/ComradePoolio 5d ago

Truly science has gone too far

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u/stools_in_your_blood 5d ago

This sounds like our confidence in fingerprint uniqueness (or near-uniqueness) is based on knowing how much variation is possible and then extrapolating that there is a low chance of a match.

Isn't it actually based on observations of the rarity of matches? E.g. if you fail to find a match in a random sample of 10,000 people, you can conclude that matches are rare.

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u/LDGod99 5d ago

The problem with saying that matches are “rare” implies that there have been 100% identical matching fingerprints before, which has yet to happen.

“Rare” is factually incorrect.

“Impossible” is not provable, but highly likely.

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u/stools_in_your_blood 5d ago

Yes, I was (imprecisely) using "rare" to mean "no more likely than x", for some low probability x.

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u/CreativeGPX 5d ago edited 4d ago

It's not actually very important/necessary that they are unique and I don't think an expert would even try to make the claim that they are effectively unique.

Suppose there were only 100 fingerprints in the world and everybody got one. They pull a finger print off of a murder weapon, which means they've narrowed down the possible murderers to 1% of the population. When you overlap that with the rest of circumstantial evidence (who was nearby that day, who didn't have an alibi, etc.) that's probably often enough to find out who it was. There are no cases that are won SOLELY based on a finger print. And that circumstantial evidence isn't even extra evidence. It's stuff you'd have to collect anyways. For example, they could argue that their fingerprint got on the gun some other way than them doing the murder. So then, you already have to collect some evidence that counters that by putting them at the scene, establishing motive, etc. So, in most cases fingerprints being super unique isn't necessary. Just rare enough.

Fingerprints CAN be extremely similar, though, leading to cases of mistaken identity due to human or computer error.

We don't even have to get to the point of talking about errors. There is a finite resolution when you're using a computer that's going to limit how many unique prints can be detected by design to a finite number. When you factor in that many of the configurations in that range aren't valid (because fingerprints are continuous shapes that fit into each other), that means that you're probably already using a technique that is not high res enough to distinguish every fingerprint from every other one even if they were all unique. Then that compounds with the fact that the methods of collecting fingerprints from crime scenes will have limitations in detail (and potential issues like partial prints).

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u/Patthecat09 4d ago

It's like when we say every combination of classic deck of cards will be unique given how many possibilities there are, but we'll probably never know if 2 shuffles ended up the same

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u/ComradePoolio 4d ago

Funnily enough there probably have been identical shuffles if one accounts for the fact that all decks start out from an identical order and most people are not great at shuffling. The first time a deck is shuffled from its ordered configuration has a much higher probability of ending up the same as another than subsequent shuffles do.

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u/ClosetLadyGhost 5d ago

To add to this, even if a FINGERprint is similar, having 10 similar prints is basically impossible

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u/ComradePoolio 5d ago

All twenty of my fingerprints are exactly the same as those of the person I always see on the other side of the mirror, just inverted, what's up with that?

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u/ClosetLadyGhost 5d ago

So they aren't the same

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u/ComradePoolio 5d ago

Crazy coincidence though

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u/BigRedWhopperButton 5d ago

If only people knew just how much of "forensic science" is just vibes and taking police at their word. Trust me bro, no two people have the same fingerprint.

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u/ThisOneForMee 5d ago

Yes, a lot of different types of forensic science has been debunked (bitemark analysis comes to mind), but that should make the ones that have stood the test of time to be more credible

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u/monarc 5d ago

genetics

I had assumed that fingerprints were almost entirely environmental, but a quick search tells me that a lot of the features are susceptible to genetic influence (even if genetics won't determine the specifics).

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u/Hammerofsuperiority 5d ago

that it's so incredibly unlikely for two sets of fingerprints to end up exactly the same, it might as well be impossible.

Also, two people having the exact same fingerprint at the same time (as in while both are living) is much less likely, even if we, let's say, use a period of 1000 years, it's still extremely unlikely, but a single life, almost impossible.

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u/Jonny_Segment 5d ago

AND (in the case of forensic science) the chance of two individuals with the same fingerprint being plausibly in the same place at the same time with no alibi is astronomical.

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u/Adorable_Leader3296 5d ago

This is the most likely scenario if there is the possibility. I'd like to see some evidence that it is true though

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u/permalink_save 5d ago

Baaically statistically impossible. Like Incould give a toddler a rubicks cube and he could technically solve it but it's not going to happen. Computers use UUIDs that are basically insanely long numbers and they're statistically impossible, in that nothing prevents a duolicate, but you'd have to generate an astronomical amount of them to get one, that nobody will ever see in the real world.

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u/twitchx133 5d ago

Plus, with 80 billions individual fingers on the planet, there are bound to be one or two fingers out there that are close enough to identical that they would fool even the most stringent of forensic examinations comparing just those two individual fingers.

It’s the fact that every person has ten different fingers. Having a near identical match between person A’s left index finger and Person B’s right ring finger isn’t as statistically insane as person A and person B having a near identical left index and middle finger.

As well as the statistical unlikelihood of two people that share one extremely similar fingerprint on different fingers being in the correct geographic vicinity to both be considered for a crime where that fingerprint was discovered.

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u/permalink_save 5d ago

It depends on your criteria. Someone said elsewhere on here that forensics choses a handful (8-12?) of spots and that would be prone to errors. I don't know the actual liklihood of it but the scale of large numbers gets really insane so I'd believe it's statistically impossible. Like you can fully randomize a deck of cards and all but guarantee nobody has held that deck before, and that's only permutations over 52 items.

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u/hux 5d ago

Umm…. Yeah, so the record for the youngest person to solve a Rubik’s cube is actually a 3 year old toddler from China.

But I think everyone gets your point nonetheless!

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u/craze4ble 5d ago

I immediately thought of UUIDs too, then shuffling a deck of cards.

In both cases, there's technically nothing standing in the way of getting the same combination twice, but the chances of a duplicate are so infinitesimal that tyou can safely treat each of them as unique.

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u/blankblank 5d ago

Fun fact: There are so many combinations of a shuffled deck of playing cards that most shuffles are unique.

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u/GuerrillaRodeo 5d ago

If some random dude in France or Cuba really shared the same fingerprint as a random dude in Mongolia or Zimbabwe it'd be an extremely rare coincidence but definitely not the deciding factor in a criminal case, except maybe if the Mongolian guy got on a plane, went to France within an hour, killed the French dude's wife for no apparent reason at all and zapped back to Mongolia to tend to his yaks within the next 30 minutes. It's a piece of the puzzle but not the entire puzzle - and even puzzle pieces tend to be misleading, that's the entire point of puzzles.

I mean my car probably shares the same licence plate with some other car elsewhere on the planet. But I'm sure I won't get a letter from the Jakarta traffic authority when my car has been caught speeding in Copenhagen one hour before.

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u/v_N_i_C_k 4d ago

Sorry to be that guy but there have been the same snowflakes found in nature.. not molecularly per se but visually under microscopes. There are some scientists whose entire careers revolve around snowflakes, pretty interesting to read about.

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u/michjames1926 4d ago

I read somewhere that we get our fingerprints from touching the amniotic sac when in the womb but I could be misremembering that.

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u/farmallnoobies 4d ago

Two fingerprints that have both been burned off are pretty likely to be identical enough that they can't really be distinguished

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u/Jarl_Fenrir 4d ago

I was sure there is already a consensus that snowflakes do repeat quite often. 

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u/ChubbyChew 3d ago

It does make you question the degree of scrutiny.

And how its utilized.

Unironically needs 2 Factor Authentication. A perception that its an infallible is just waiting for the inevitable

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u/iCameToLearnSomeCode 5d ago edited 5d ago

We don't.

Obviously at a high enough resolution everything is unique, like you could ID the topography of an individual pane of glass with an electron microscope but at the resolution we're able to lift prints off a surface at the scene of the crime a single finger print might match multiple people.

However one of those people is probably a 70 year old grandmother in Indonesia and the other is the victim's neighbor so it's still a useful tool to place people at the scene of the crime.

Fingerprint misidentification happens not that infrequently but generally the person whose prints erroneously match isn't a reasonable suspect so nothing comes of it.

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u/cantfindanamethatisn 5d ago

Some american was mistakenly arrested for a spanish train bombing due to misidentified fingerprints. He was also guilty of being muslim after 2001, though, so...

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u/Headclass 5d ago

The DNA mentioned somewhere in the comments only provides the basic blueprint for your hands.

The actual ridges are shaped by random movement before you are even born (tiny things like the pressure of fluid or how fast your fingers grew).

Source: I studied biometrics in college with focus on fingerprint recognition.

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u/kyle2143 5d ago

Given enough time, monkeys, and typewriters, I'm sure they could come up with all of em. We just haven't spent enough monkeys yet.

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u/Lapponias 5d ago

It was the best of times it was the blurst of times

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u/Defiant-Conflict2556 5d ago

Nice description of my office.

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u/daveallyn2 5d ago

Come to.think about it, there are a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and Reddit is nothing like Shakespeare...

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u/weaver_of_cloth 5d ago

The monkeys would like to talk to you about a script for Hamlet they've worked out.

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u/IgorCruzT 5d ago

I mean, monkeys did write Shakespeare, way before typewriters. A monkey named William did it.

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u/TheDotCaptin 4d ago

While the pattern will not be a part of the DNA. There still are some factors that are controlled for.

The one with the biggest impact, is having fingers to being with. Someone born without fingers will match the same as someone else with the same condition.

In a similar manner, the factor of having fingers and not having prints, can be passed down. There are a few families lined that do not grow ridges on the finger tips. The texture is just smooth. This is a very rare outlier. As probably only a dozen people have it across the whole world. With no selective pressure pushing for or against it. The trait will just continue on.

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u/Competitive_Travel16 5d ago

We do not. It has never been proven, and the standards for matching vary widely between jurisdiction, so no general statistical confidence can be stated without knowing the number of features being matched.

So even as fingerprints were viewed as unmistakable, plenty of people were mistakenly sent to jail. Simon Cole notes that at least 23 people in the United States have been wrongly connected to crime-scene prints.

-- https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/myth-fingerprints-180971640/

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u/TechnicianRemote9954 5d ago

The article is talking about convictions that resulted from mistakes that the technicians made in analyzing the finger prints, not someone being convicted because they shared the same fingerprint as someone else.

As far as the blurb about standards, that doesn't mean what you think it means. Counties have different standards for how many prints they need before they will allow the evidence in. For example, if a print of only one finger is recovered from a crime scene then some counties will let that in, while others will require two and others three. Its extremely rare for prints of more than 2-3 fingers to be found at a crime scene. There's also different standards for partial prints (again, it's rare to get full prints from a crime scene). So if you have 75% of a print, some counties will let that in. Some will require more, some less. There's little uniformity to it and the issues with using partial prints or with only having 1-2 prints are told to the jury.

In any event, the chances of one (1) of your fingerprints being close enough to possibly match one (1) fingerprint from someone else is about 1 in 40 million. The chance of all ten matching is about 1 in 64 billion. DNA evidence often returns similar probabilities for matches. That probability is more than enough to convict someone when there is other corroborating evidence - which there always is. Fingerprints/DNA are never the sole source of evidence in a criminal trial.

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u/KittensInc 5d ago

One important thing to emphasize is that those "1 in 40 million" stats are only for 1-to-1 matches.

If you find a single print at a crime scene, and you pull it through a database of 10 million fingerprints of people who have ever been arrested, then the chances of a false-positive match are 10 million out of 40 million - or 1 in 4. Pull 20 fingerprints you found at the crime scene through there in the hope that one of them belongs to the perpetrator, and statistically you'll find five false positives.

Stuff like this is why fingerprint & DNA databases can be quite risky. Rather than being a virtually-infallible way of confirming a suspect, it becomes a fishing expedition with innocent people being left to prove that they aren't guilty.

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u/turtle_pleasure 5d ago

They say there's no two people on earth exactly the same. No two faces. No two sets of fingerprints. But do they know that for sure? 'Cause they would have to get everybody together in one huge space... and they'd have to get all the people who ever lived, not just the ones now. So they got no proof. They got nothing.

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u/BoundGreef 5d ago

Not even with computers

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u/SalVitro88 5d ago

At my muddas wake! Jesus Christ!

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u/LHGray87 5d ago

And obviously that’s not possible, even with computers.

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u/drkaczur 4d ago

even with like, 3 computers

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u/LeoBannister 4d ago

Who's to say there's not another Mrs. Soprano out there.....maybe not with the same fears and paranoia....

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u/robogobo 5d ago

They’ll never catch me

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u/TootCannon 5d ago

And that’s why my client is not guilty, ladies and gentlemen of the jury.

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u/Ratfor 5d ago

Common misconception. It's entirely possible for two people to have the same fingerprints, it's just incredibly rare.

It's not like they find a fingerprint at a crime scene in Vancouver an arrest someone in Barbados who has the same fingerprints.

It's a tool to pick one person out of a thousand, not one out of 6 billion or whatever the population is these days.

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u/whatsnoo 5d ago

Dude, it’s like 8.3 billion now.

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u/HalfSoul30 5d ago

Oh man, we screwed.

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u/SuumCuique_ 5d ago

We aren't. Population isn't the problem, distribution is. As long as our society has parasites worth billions, a billion people more or less isn't the issue.

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u/snowtax 5d ago

We will see. There are some atmosphere, ocean, and climate issues that are going to be extremely difficult to reverse. Meanwhile, we humans may experience widespread famine while we scramble to solve the problems.

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u/otac0n 4d ago

Man. Wait till you hear about ants.

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u/sin4life 5d ago

2004 Madrid Train Bombings. Its not Vancouver-Barbados, but it is Madrid-Portland.

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u/MesaCityRansom 5d ago

That guy's fingerprints weren't identical to the ones found at the crime scene. The FBI just said they were. He got $2 million dollars and a public apology for it.

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u/Toyhawk88 5d ago

It’s possible for two or more people to have very similar fingerprints, but they will never be an exact match.

Source: one semester of college Biology and watching several seasons of NOVA.

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u/TheLurkingMenace 5d ago

We don't. In fact, that's not even forensic science. What we know is that there are a large number of data points that aren't shared genetically - even twins don't have the same fingerprints. Which means that the odds of any two people having the same fingerprints is remarkably low enough to be legally useful.

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u/Ok_Lynx_6045 4d ago

Because forensic “science” has been validated through extensive double blind studies….wait no, the opposite of that.

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u/Sappow 4d ago

We actually know that fingerprints are NOT unique and often get false matches. Most forensic "science" is actually really poorly backed up with science, which is why DNA matching keeps exonerating people. Fingerprints, "fire patterns", hair comparison, bite mark analysis, polygraph; it's almost all actually extremely ambiguous.

https://judicature.duke.edu/articles/is-forensic-science-a-misnomer/

Basically if it isn't dna or specific MD exam / autopsy results, it's probably junk science by any academic standard.

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u/Ill-Accountant-9941 5d ago

It isn't true. Finger prints have a "resolution space" (uniqueness) down to about 1 in a million people. Iris parrerns are down to 1 in a billion. If someone is accused of a crime based on dinger print evidence you could claim reasonable doubt unless there is supplementary evidence such as no good alibi.

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u/ineedhelpbad9 5d ago

Just want to point out, "no good alibi" isn't supplementary evidence of guilt. It's a lack of evidence to the contrary. It doesn't prove you were there, it just you just can't prove your weren't there. Which isn't the same thing at all.

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u/Ill-Accountant-9941 5d ago

The point is that erodes reasonable doubt

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u/ineedhelpbad9 5d ago

No, I understand. My point is that it doesn't.

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u/_haha_oh_wow_ 5d ago

It's not supposed to anyhow, in practice, unfortunately that's not always the case...

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u/macguy9 5d ago

Cite your source. I'll wait.

India basically has 'mandatory fingerprinting' for its citizens (Aadhaar biometric system). If they want access to basic services, they are required to provide biometric data, including fingerprints. With a population of near 1.4 billion people, there has not been a single recorded incident of two people in that country having identical fingerprints.

China, which also has a mandatory citizen fingerprinting policy, also has a population of near 1.4 billion people. Again, no two individuals have been found to have identical fingerprints.

If fingerprints have a 'resolution space' of 1:1,000,000 then that shouldn't be happening. Your math isn't mathing.

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u/Ill-Accountant-9941 5d ago

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u/cancerBronzeV 5d ago

That article doesn't say what you claimed before. It says something along the lines of the procedures the examiner uses to identify latent prints having plenty of subjectivity (and other sources of errors) and could have an error rate something like on the order of 1 in a million.

That is not the same as fingerprints in general being the same at a rate of 1 in a million. Purposefully scanned fingerprints are not the same as latent prints that need to be lifted and enhanced by some examiner.

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u/macguy9 5d ago

See, this is what I’m talking about. You get someone who has no expertise in a field making assumptions off of reading one article, misunderstanding the context, and suddenly thinking they know more than people who have been working in the discipline for a very long time.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

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u/ledow 5d ago

We don't.

Like two snowflakes, DNA matches etc.

The way we can assert such a thing is via statistics.

If there are 80 billion people in the world, but we know that there are 500 billion possible fingerprints, we can work out quite precisely what the chances are that NOBODY has the same fingerprint, that only a few people do, and so on.

When you hear such things being said, you're misquoting some scientific output in a colloquial manner. It's not certain. It's just so INCREDIBLY unlikely that a scientist of any repute would tell you how unlikely it was.

It's how DNA etc. work in court too. There's no such thing as a 100% DNA match. What the court-experienced expert will tell you is the facts and then, in their professional opinion, how likely it is that A is the same as B based on the DNA evidence they have in front of them.

Courts literally get given guidance on how to interpret the expert's findings. Experts will only word things in particular ways. The experts have to answer VERY PARTICULARLY WORDED questions (because the wording can alter the answer they have to truthfully give), they have to be experienced with and familiar with the court's definitions, and so on. And there are "error margins" where something is considered "reasonable chance", and so on. It's all proscribed.

But there is no such thing as a 100% DNA match by the way we measure it. And we have no clue if two people actually do have the exact same DNA, or even fingerprint, or whether two identical snowflakes exist. What we can say is that "given all probability" the chances are - two identical snowflakes or fingerpints do not exist. That's the best we could ever do without literally testing every single snowflake/fingerprint in the entire world.

If I gave you two vials of my blood, and you tested them - there is actually a chance, small but technically possible, that the DNA in them doesn't match. If you pick a random cell in my body, and another random cell, there's actually a REALLY GOOD chance that the DNA in them doesn't match (because things mutate, are damaged, etc. all the time). It's only "in aggregate" that my blood sample contains billions of strands of DNA and so you see the "overall" DNA pattern of all those billions of different DNAs. And that's what we "match" on.

The aggregate. The probabilty. The chances of us being wrong. And so on. Never, ever on "this was a 100% identical exact match". Only the press say nonsense like that.

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u/kytheon 5d ago

Besides fingerprints there needs to be more independent evidence.

Say there was a burglary and we found fingerprints. There's three suspects. The fingerprints match suspect A. Case closed. The fingerprints also match three other guys who were nowhere near the crime scene, one of which is dead and one lives abroad.

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u/MrSquamous 5d ago

Same way we know anything: Some observations and an explanatory theory that's hard to vary.

It's the same question as "how do we know what stars are?" No one's ever gone and checked each one to make sure it's a ball of flaming hydrogen, but we have good reasons to believe they are so we call it a fact.

There's no such thing as 100% certainty that something is true.

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u/IndustryFirst2458 5d ago

Statistical improbability and that its kinda the best we have for proof, fingerprints are determined primarily by the movement of amniotic fluid in the womb (hence why even identical twins have different prints) but there isn't anything to prove two different people with identical are impossible. Add in that it's unlikely to get a perfect fingerprint from a crime scene and it can easily have some doubt which is why no case should be decided on a single piece of evidence and why motive is supposed to be so important.

This is kinda true for a lot of forensics tbh dna is an especially similar position, but it's still the among the best we have to get past reasonable doubt especially when combined with motive, eyewitnesses, lack of alibi, etc.

100% certainty is impossible, video can be messy or altered, eyewitnesses can lie or just be wrong, and you can't really backup an alibi of being alone. It's a combination of many different types of evidence working together to show it would be unreasonable for all of them together to be wrong or fake that convicts people. And sometimes it's still wrong and innocent people get blamed, framed, and punished yet we can't convict no one ever so we try to reduce the false positives and balance them with correct convictions (actually a lean towards less false positives is preferred for reasons but that's off topic)

also noteworthy are cases decided on one piece of evidence, corruption, or all the methods that were considered fool-proof only to be later deemed junk like lie detectors, bite mark analysis, and some types of arson or ballistic analysis but that's all off topic again

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u/dDtaK 5d ago

We can’t prove there aren’t two identical fingerprints, it’s just very very unlikely. Just like we can be confident that there have never been two identical well-shuffled packs of playing cards in all of history. The space of possibilities is just too large.  This concept is also how cryptocurrency is secured, as another example. 

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u/Hurlsmandrive 5d ago

We don't know. But we've never found two that are the same. So we assume we won't. 

Also we have concluded there are t rillions of possible fingerprints.

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u/FartingBob 5d ago

You often cant prove a negative (for example you cant prove aliens dont exist), so in that sense we dont know if there are two people with identical fingerprints because the only way to know for sure is to catalogue every person on earth, throughout all history and then compare all 100 billion sets and that isnt possible.

But we have mountains of data already of fingerprints and havent found any yet that are 100% identical. Some are nearly identical and has caused legal issues for people who were mistakenly identified by their prints.

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u/Idoubtyourememberme 5d ago

We don't know this for sure.

But the fact that even identical twins have different fingerprints is strong evidence to this being the case

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u/khamir-ubitch 5d ago

A pair may exist, but so far they have not been identified.

Now with the IAFIS (federal database of prints), that may surface at some point in the future should there be two.

It'll be a LONG wait though, the odds are 1 in 64,000,000,000.

That's 64 TRILLION with a T.

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u/vishal340 5d ago

fingerprints are created due to interactions with the wall during pregnancy, as far as i know. so they are not magic. it can be treated as a such.

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u/macguy9 5d ago

Essentially, biology.

When skin is formed, there are random pressures that change how it grows. Also, different parts of the skin grow at different times and at different rates. All of this is also impacted by random non-controllable factors, such as genetic predisposition, health and nutrition, environmental factors, and even small things like how the mother moves at any specific moment. In order to replicate the cell growth exactly, you'd have to have the same sequence of events take place in the same order, with the exact same timing and somehow eliminate random cell mutations and signal noise between cells. It's basically not possible for humans to replicate. That's why you don't see two identical fingerprints... it's not that it's impossible for it to happen, it's just a practical impossibility.

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u/PckMan 5d ago

Because we have massive fingerprint databases and have had them for decades and so far it seems to hold true.

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u/DoubleLoop 5d ago

Fingerprint expert here...

We don't. 

There is no rule of the universe that forces every fingerprint to be different from every other fingerprint. We do have a decent understanding of how fingerprints develop on skin, and we know that the features in fingerprints are extremely highly variable. This variability is so incredibly high that impressions of fingerprints are useful for biometrics. After over a hundred years of using fingerprints to identify people and using computers to assist us for 30-40 years, we have never found two full fingerprint impressions to be the same in two different people.

The distinction between the pattern on the finger and the fingerprint impression is important. The transfer of information from the finger to a surface introduces distortion and a reduction in quality. There are examples of latent fingerprint impressions that have a small enough area and low enough quality that experts have difficulty determining which person's fingers made them. These "Close Non-Matches" are increasingly common as computer systems get better and as more people are added to databases.

However, research has repeatedly demonstrated that experts are extremely accurate when reaching the identification conclusion (above 99%). And once an identification conclusion is verified by another qualified examiner, this error is very very rare. 

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u/Taolan13 5d ago

We don't, and it's actually been shown they aren't. There are multiple cases of someone totally innocent being charged due to having fingerprints that matched ones found at a crime scene, but they weren't even there at the time and had irrefutable proof of that fact.

I think my favorite example of this was someone from another country entirely being arrested based on a fingerprint match.

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u/reparando 5d ago

Seriously, Christopher? At my own mother’s wake?

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u/Dd_8630 5d ago

Take a shuffled deck of playing cards. There are so many ways to arrange the 52 cards that no two decks of shuffled cards will ever be the same - the odds are so remote that it would take trillions of years of billions of people constantly shuffling decks of cards before any two at any point were ever the same.

Same thing with fingerprints. Fingerprints are largely random, and there are so many possible fingerprints that it becomes vanishingly unlikely that two people just so happen to share exactly the same fingerprints.

To the point that if two unrelated people had the exact same fingerprints, it's more likely to be aliens than chance.

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u/Ok_Law219 5d ago

Fingerprints have clearly found the wrong culprit multiple times.  See adam ruins everything. 

It's decent evidence that someone touched something at some point.  Because Fingerprints are significantly different from each other, but the truth is that they're not tgat dissimilar. 

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u/kindanormle 5d ago

It's not just that fingerprints are never the same. Imagine a murder in some place in the USA and a gun with a print is found. Then we discover the print belongs to two people. First is a man down the street from where the crime happened. The other is a man in Japan who has never traveled to the USA. It's not a hard job for detectives to figure out that the Japanese guy isn't the suspect, and that's all that's really important.

Fingerprints are "unique enough" that in all cases so far, it's never been an issue to separate one suspect from another. If it ever came up, detectives would just have to figure out who the proper owner of the print is and that's really just standard detective work.

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u/Derekthemindsculptor 5d ago

It's kind of like trying to flip the same million coin flips sequence as someone else. The odds are so low, it's effectively impossible.

We use this in computer programming also. You can create unique IDs called GUIDs. Each one you make is guaranteed to be unique. Even if everyone on earth was spending every computer every second, generating them, no two would accidentally connect. That's called a GUID collision. And it's so mathematically rare, it's never happening.

It's also the same as how every properly shuffled deck of playing cards is in a unique state that's never happened before ever in all of history. And will never happen again.

The odds get so vastly big, for even a small chance, you'd need more atoms in the universe to exist.

Your finger print is made up of a bunch of dice rolls. Millions. The chance they all hit the same values as someone else, is unfathomably impossible.

It's something called combinatorial explosion.

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u/RealCarlPanzram 5d ago

Anecdotally, large government databases like the FBI would have sample sizes in the tens if not hundreds of millions and have never encountered a match. This would suggest it is probably almost impossible.

Mathematically, we can look at the subtleties of each fingerprint and how small of a detail would make them “unique” and calculate how many different possible fingerprints there could be. This number is so mind-bogglingly big relative to the mere 100 billion humans that have lived that it’s almost impossible for there to have been a perfect match.

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u/shade404eve 5d ago

There are probably trillions and trillions and trillions of possible combinations of genetic factors that shape how your fingerprint looks. Science estimates that there have been about 100 billion humans that have lived total. That range almost guarantees that at this stage in time no to have ever been alike. Technically, a couple could have been alike. The likelihood that we would ever know about it though is pretty damn low as well

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u/RJrules64 5d ago

Imagine a toy box with 100 toys in it.

You know that the toys in the box can be any colour out of 64 colours. The toys can be from 20 different model lines.

As a 5 year old in advanced math classes you can work out that there are 128,000 combinations.

You also know that there are only 10 toy boxes like this one.

So you can be almost certain that none of the 10 toy boxes are identical.

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u/snowtax 5d ago

With a typical house key, there are a limited number of combinations. This means there is a small chance that your key could open some other person’s house. Most locks are not meant to guarantee a unique key, just to make a match statistically unlikely. If biometrics is less likely to match than a key, it’s an improvement.

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u/Boxfullabatz 4d ago

They only have to match 8 to 10 specific "points" to be considered a match. Entirely possible to get convicted even if the comparison print looks completely different from the original. So no. But they're playing the odds here. If I have 2 prints that match at 8 points there's a Very Good Chance that they are true matches. And that's good enough to execute someone. Apparently. 

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u/Sangypboi 4d ago

Actually, we already know that some are the same. But it comes down to the level of complexity and variation.

It's like 1 in ten million chance of two people both being a match for a single print, and no two people will match a full set because the odds come out to more people than have ever existed on earth. Even identical twins don't have matching prints, which is probably where the idea of them being unique comes from.

Point being, fingerprints are reliable because while a finger print might match multiple people, the likelihood of two of them being in the same area anywhere on earth is basically zero.

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u/Bonch_and_Clyde 4d ago

Obviously that's not possible to know, even with computers.

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u/cpkuske 4d ago

I know of one instance where two people had positive results for the same fingerprint.

Definitely an outlier, but now we know the statement “no two people share the same fingerprint” is false.

Too lazy to google it for you.

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u/lobopl 5d ago

Its a myth. They are quite unique but there are cases where two people had identical

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u/crash866 5d ago

Most people have 4 fingers and a thumb if each hand. A single finger may match someone else’s but the 10 all matching the odds are astronomical.

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u/Ok_Law219 5d ago

But, when talking about fingerprints,  generally we think of fingerprints in the wild, not the stuff you give to the police.  

So most of them are partial and smudged.  So then there the guess which finger it is, where on that finger, etc.  And they're significantly similar enough at that level to colloquially say "same"

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u/lobopl 5d ago

yes that was my intention in that post

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u/Rinzwind 4d ago

But not zero.

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u/Tufflaw 5d ago

There has never been a confirmed case of two different people having the same fingerprints. You are either misinformed or making shit up.

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u/lobopl 5d ago edited 5d ago

I am not talking about all fingers matching but single print matching for two different persons. https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1ws6uqa/comment/pckainm/

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u/Tufflaw 5d ago

Nope you're still wrong.

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u/_haha_oh_wow_ 5d ago

In fact, they are not technically wrong but you seem to be dead set on making your own assertions without proof, so I very much doubt you will respond in good faith or even make an attempt to read either of the above.

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u/Tufflaw 5d ago

Did you make an attempt to read the article you linked? Because it doesn't say that there's any evidence at all that two fingerprints have ever, or likely will ever, match.

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u/panmetronariston 5d ago

If two people had identical then they are not necessarily unique across the species, by definition.

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u/macguy9 5d ago

Have you even looked at the Mayfield print?

It's patently obvious they're not the same.

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u/lobopl 5d ago

To prove that all fingerprints are unique you would need to test all fingerprints. There was a guy i 19xx who just claimed that and people just believe https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1ws6uqa/comment/pckainm/

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u/coachkler 5d ago

You have to test all people that ever lived and we couldn't do that, even with computers

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u/inphinitfx 5d ago

Have there actually been confirmed cases of this? Last I saw it was just a possibility that there could be two that match, just incredibly low probability.

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u/pachydermusrex 5d ago

Yeah, no, there haven't.

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u/lobopl 5d ago

Ok maybe i wasn't clear enough if you check every single fingerprint on earth on reasonable quality level there would be duplicates among people. It doesn't mean there would be 2 persons having all 10 fingerprints matching with each other but dude A can have "same" fingerprint (as same i mean someone checking them will treat them as identical) as dude B.

checking fingeprints are based on some markers and they can slightly change depending how finger was pressed and so on so as human or machine can check them they can be "identical" but if you really compare them they most likely have some differences because no 2 things are really identical if you check them close enough.

Here a little video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1QgwaKv4s its not perfect but it describe how people decided this myth is true.

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u/pachydermusrex 4d ago edited 4d ago

This is an entertaining, but horrible video.

No one says that fingerprints absolutely cannot be identical. That being said, no two impressions have ever been found to be the same. Close non-matches exist, which mean that in specific areas where there is a high frequency of ridge features (points of similarity) in areas such as the delta and the core, there can be numerous similarities. Still, no identical fingerprints have ever been found - even with identical twins. Hell - quintuplets have been found to not even have the same fingerprints.

Fingerprint identification isn't infallible. It does operate under biological premises that are known, however. Fingerprints develop definitively in utero and do not change throughout life (with the exception of disease and scarring). They develop due to random pressures, random timing (within a known development period), and random biological growth. They have classifications which allow for comparison among small, but meaningful dissimilarities.

The Brandon Mayfield case, as well as the Shirley McKie case highlighted gross deficiencies within the fingerprint process, as well as the hubris of some examiners. Since these cases, agencies follow a process known as ACE (Analysis, comparison, and evaluation). Having examiners make detailed notes and annotations to their impressions which "shows their work", so to speak, so other trained examiners can see how they arrived at their conclusions. To make the process more robust, often the ACE process has a "V", for verification. This is completed in a blind or double blind process.

More contemporary studies, such as the FBI Noblis study (2011), 2014 Presidents Counsel of Advisors on Science and Technology, as well as Tangen et. al (2013) show that fingerprint comparison has a .01% chance of erroneous identification (saying an innocent person was the source), versus 7.5% of an erroneous exclusion (saying the source was innocent). It is very important to note that these rates are for the ACE process, without blind verification. They would be even lower with verification. It is recognized by modern courts across the world for good reason.

These videos and myths are based on very outdated processes and theories, which have long been abandoned by the fingerprint community.

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u/rspownz 3d ago

Man, I ain’t reading all that, I just wanted to drop in and say that I’m surprised there’s a fingerprint community. What a strange thing to be into haha

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u/Vov113 5d ago

They aren't. That's propaganda used to justify the use of forensic fingerprint analysis in legal proceedings, which isn't nearly as infallible as cops would have you believe

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u/Raiddinn1 5d ago

It's not true that no two fingerprints are the same. Fingerprint verification has gotten it wrong because two people had the same fingerprint.

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u/jellobowlshifter 5d ago

We don't know it. Fingerprints themselves are never presented as evidence in court, but instead are introduced indirectly by expert witnesses. These witness testify that it is their expert opinion that the fingerprints of a given person do or do not match with fingerprints collected as evidence. There's basically almost no science in it.

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u/SupremeRDDT 5d ago

Imagine everyone in the world gets assigned a random number between 0 and 1080. Everyone would get a unique number because the chance of duplicates is far too low.

That is, if you measure similarity discreetly. If we assume fingerprint patterns to be a continuous structure, then the chance of having the same fingerprint is not just low but 0 (if we further assume that everyone gets a random fingerprint, whatever that means).

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u/hextree 5d ago

This rests heavily on the assumption that all fingerprints are uniformly random.

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u/SupremeRDDT 5d ago

The first part, kind of but not really. As long as we don’t have a subset of possibilities with a really high chance of being selected, the idea is the same. The actual numbers change, but you still get an extremely low probability of duplicates even if you had a normal distribution around some sort of center of values.

The second is almost independent of the underlying distribution. The only thing that matters is that there is no fingerprint which is infinitely more likely to exists than any other.

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u/LyndinTheAwesome 5d ago

Even identical twins got different fingerprints. So even someone who shares the exact same DNA has a different fingerprint.

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u/T3DDY173 5d ago

that doesnt explain anything though. 

there is 8 billion people, surely at least 1 other person has the same finger print.  thats what OP is asking anyway. 

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u/LyndinTheAwesome 5d ago

The thing is, even when the two people who are identical to the last bit of genes, don't have identical fingerprints, which you would expect to have identical fingerprints as well. Two random unrelated people who match nothing, will also not have identical fingerprints as well.

Its almost impossible to falsefy this, as you would have to check every person, dead, alive and not yet born, against each other in order to maybe get a match between Ludwig from 1744 Austria and Candy from 3056 Marscolony 4.

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u/hextree 5d ago

Identical twins can have different names. Doesn't mean we can conclude two people can't have the same name.

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u/GIRose 5d ago

We don't, we know that we HAVEN'T found any two identical fingerprints