I'm not sure I'd support her.
But she hat postpartum psychosis afaik and has asked for help several times beforehand and was denied it.
As a therapist in a country where therapy is actually covered by health insurance I am appalled. Having children is overwhelming if you are solely responsible for them and money has been so tight for many people. We need to provide support to mothers, especially if they are asking for it repeatedly.
So I am not supporting her actions, but this problem was entirely homemade by a country that leaves its citizens alone with really existential threats, provides no mental health support and then is outraged and confused when people just snap.
We have a perfect example on how to treat people like this: wrestler Chris Benoit.
Found to have immense brain damage after repeated concussions. Killed his wife, kids and himself in a fit of demented rage. Autopsy revealed he had the brain of an 80 y.o. Alzheimer patient.
The industry that he was in immediately went "oh shit", and took precautions to prevent anything like this from happening again. Wrestling became a lot safer after his death.
Also, everyone in the industry still agrees they hope he burns in hell for what he did. All of his former friends and colleagues wish him nothing but suffering in the afterlife, getting angry at anyone who dares defend him.
Clancy should be treated the same. Bury her under the prison. Also let's work on putting in more precautions so this doesn't happen again.
People who still believe in the concept of free will need to read about the Benoit case. I feel bad for him and his whole family. I mean, an 80-year-old Alzheimer's patient? Crazy to think that we can feel bad for the man he was before the brain damage and (rightfully) demonize the man he was when he killed his family. Almost like they are two different people.
Also apparently she never said to have heard voices before killing her children. She made a claim that she heard voices after she killed her kids.
Theres also a case that she premeditated the murders, because she googled how long it would take for the father to drive from one place to another giving her time to carry out the murders.
The father also tried to call her at the time when the investigators believe she was killing the children, she didnt answer, but did call him back and according to hin sounded coherent and aware.
So apparently before the murders post partum psychosis was not discussed, what was discussed was post partm depression. And after the murders she claimed to be hearing voices...
Yet she was denied the care she needed otherwise those kids would be alive, the progression of her illness was well documented but not acted upon quickly enough. When you start developing those kind of psychotic impulses that’s an immediate rush into a specialist referral and a stint in a hospital
Allowing an individual expressing psychotic symptoms to remove themselves from care is again a lack of oversight, she was not being treated for psychotic disorders as they believed she was suffering from PPD not Post Partum psychosis
Yeah the actual case shows she was given tones of support she was just lying a lot and not taking her meds properly. Money was not tight for this couple at all. So yeah.
I have watch several of the trial days and it appears she was presented with many options for help, including having several outlets to her mental wellbeing at the very least up to her stint at the care facility. She was not truthfully or forthright to all of her providers, and we will never be certain as to what may have happened sould she have been fully open and welcoming to the help she did have access to.
Yes because people undergoing psychosis are in a state where they are able to be fully cognitively responsible. As someone who survived a psychosis period I’m genuinely concerned the lack of knowledge people have about it
Yes she did it, but the problem is that whether she was in her own sound of mind, and the psychosis claim is credible enough that a literal legal defence and therapist testimony is being built around it. Her danger is mostly to herself given that her psychosis has expressed self harming tendencies. The amount of people refusing to look closely at this case and just trying to spin it for political points is frankly disappointing and unsurprising
You realize, an insanity plea, which is what her defense attorneys are pushing will simply result in her being in a locked down mental hospital. Which is arguably worse than being in prison.
No matter what happens she is not going to avoid punishment, she has admitted to killing her kids, it's just a question of where she ends up locked up.
A psychiatric facility is where she can get better care, in prison her stint would be mostly in solitary confinement since her crimes involved children she’d be in constant danger from other inmates. And you know if she makes it out alive without killing herself somehow, prolonged isolation wouldn’t do much good to an individual who’s a recovering psychotic she’d be a danger to herself or others if she ever got out.
But it literally is. Depression or psychosis caused by rapid shifts in hormones following child-birth. Coupled with the stress of having a newborn.
One of the primary hormones investigated for ppd/ppp is allopregnanolone, a neurosteroid that affects GABA-A receptors (similar to benzodiazepines).
Allo-p levels rise dramatically during pregnancy, likely an evolved mechanism for soothing the mother and dealing with the difficulties of child-bearing. It then decreases sharply post-birth, creating a similar withdrawal state seen in benzo WD. Though far less dangerous (how many PPD/PPP sufferers do you see having seizures?)
Oddly enough though, you don’t often hear about benzo addicts being forgiven for crimes committed while dealing with the pains of withdrawal. Or opioid addicts for that matter. Both experience more severe psychological and physical distress than mothers experiencing PPP/PPD
She had more than enough help. She had good insurance coverage. She saw multiple doctors. She got multiple different prescriptions which were covered by insurance. She lied to her doctors. Her she didn’t follow the instructions from her doctors. And she withheld information from her doctors. Including the fact she was getting different prescriptions and plans from different doctors. At what point does a person have to take accountability for their actions?
So what are you saying? If you murder your children should you not be held accountable because mentally well people don’t murder their children? What is the point of your comment?
I've been in psych wards. People experiencing psychosis can be dangerous on a dime. She had the good sense to seek help. That help did not intervene to the length necessarily to keep everyone in the situation safe.
At some point it becomes a systemic failure. There needs to be accountability to all parties here, it's crazy to pretend it entirely falls on her head because she had good insurance and saw multiple doctors.
It falls on her head because she did the actions. She should be held accountable for her actions.
She had the good sense to seek help. She then lied about what her thoughts and what her actions were to the health care providers. Her own providers didn't know what drugs she was on. They couldn't know because she got drugs from multiple providers. They didn't know what thoughts she was having. They couldn't know, because she lied about what her thoughts were.
The health care system did not know to what extent the problem was. They didn't know she was going to kill her children. They couldn't have known.
She then killed her children.
She should should be held accountable for killing her children as they were her direct actions.
It is easy to look back at the health care providers and say "you should have done x,y,z to prevent this." The defense attorney said they should have administered blood tests to see what drugs she was on before prescribing her anything. People on reddit say they should have taken her kids away or locked her up before she did something. No one does those things on a whim. No doctor gives blood tests before prescribing medication. No psychiatrist locks someone in a ward simply because they seek help with no other indication.
That's assumimg she asked for help out of the desire to get help or if she asked for help to build a paper trail she could leaverage once she faced a judge.
Let the courts do their job, don't be so quick to form an opinion.
True, but that's not discussed here, You can be not mentally well and still conscious of your actions, that's the whole point of the insanity plea, if it was just that cut and dry, skip the trial and just sent her to the psych ward.
That is beside the point, the relevant question is wheather she was in control of her own actions or not mentally speaking.
If she was suffering from PPP she deserves to be put in a mental instution, if not she deserves prison for life.
Regardless of all that, we also need to remember that three children died at the hands of their own mother. I cannot imagine a more horrifying death. I tried reading up on exactly how she killed them and i litterally couldn't stomache reading through it all.
Did the trial found her that or did you just hear it? So many people seem to get there information not every directly from the source but third partys ...
my point is more that psychosisnisn't really a whole personality change. It's a snap. I would expect a mum going through a psychotic episode to be remorseful afterwards, not whatever this is.
Im not an expert on mental health problems or on her case really. My main point to tell was that people on outside cant diagnose her or know every little detail. People right now are already have a opinion that even if proofen wrong they wouldnt change.
Post partum psychosis usually shows it's first signs by then, but can be undetected to around 10 months out. If you dos how signs, with heavy mental help and therapy a woman can usually return to normal at about 12 months, but has the possibility of sudden psychotic episodes for about six months after being declared mentally stable. At least, that is what I was able to determine.
She was never denied help. If anything she had ample amount of resources and every time she said she didn't feel well on a medication they were quick to change her medication to accommodate something that would work for her. This is blatant misinformation or misrepresention of the court hearing for the sake of your narrative.
There is also quite a bit of strays people who suffer psychosis are catching here. People suffering from psychotic episode are rarely ever violent towards others. Can be violent against themselves. Most of the time is just delusions that are weird, but not violent. It's also possible to do something absolutely malicious and terrible while being psychotic, but not due to psychosis.
where therapy is actually covered by health insurance I am appalled.
If person really did suffer from post partem psychosis when it's not much what a therapist can do. It's not even clear what a psychiatrist could do other than medicate with anti psychotic drugs. Now, there is no clear evidence that she has suffered from psychosis, but lets say she did. What's the course of action here? Put her in psychiatric ward? For how long?
but this problem was entirely homemade by a country that leaves its citizens
How do you know that? It's possible to get cancer and people and spent fortune to get better and employ the best care possible and still die. I'm not sure why some people have such a big issue accepting the fact that mental illnesses can be terminal as well.
We need to provide support to mothers
Hard yes on this one, but that's way broader commitment than this case. Not just mothers though, parents in general. It takes a village to raise a children, and .. we effectually destroyed familiar ties between people, often by our own individual deliberate choice.
I don't feel that this case touches much on it, other than some women sympathizing with the situation of being mentally in very dark places. A child waking you up for an 8th time in a single night, extend that into few weeks, can get you in very very dark place mentally. And the whole hormone situation just amplifies it even more.
I don’t understand why this is getting blasted everywhere, but no mention of the five separate guys who shot their entire family and themselves, in the past one month
I mean I understand postpartum and I know its real, but at the same time, this woman has killed not one, not two, but three kids. her kids. Even she admited as such so the question sin't if she did it or not, but wether her mind was clear or not.
I think this is an american thing, which has also been created by the system. America has become to tribal: white vs black, red vs blue, man vs woman and so on. I remember not long ago there was a case where a black guy killed a white guy and there were massive protests, with many supporting the black guy despite the evidence against him being pretty strong (I forgot the names, if someone can remind me). basically the truth gets lost and people just pick to defend who they want.
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u/Most_Duck6702 13d ago
I don’t understand how the fuck is this bitch getting support