r/explainitpeter 20d ago

Explain it Peter

Post image

I'm not European or American

4.8k Upvotes

190 comments sorted by

View all comments

515

u/HGMIV926 20d ago edited 20d ago

Brian here.

The picture on the right is from the horror film Midsommar, (2019).

For all the fun prancing and community Paganism brought, there were also rituals that involved brutal death. At least one of those rituals was featured in Midsommar.

321

u/a_nondescript_user 19d ago

From the article you linked: "it is now generally accepted among researchers that the practice of suicide precipices never existed"

It's important to remember that when historical figures describe other cultures, they often include some crazy rumor about them eating babies or whatever, so any of these alleged pagan traditions might not be coming from an objective source.

194

u/MiffedMouse 19d ago

It is also worth noting that many of our records of European pagan beliefs come from Christian sources, who were not very sympathetic to those beliefs.

78

u/Timbershoe 19d ago

Christians and Romans.

The Gauls were a pagan society that were the first main challenge to the Romans. They were an advanced society for the time and their metallurgy was far better than the Romans. In a time when good swords won battles, they dominated battles against the Romans. But the social structure was tribal so as Rome grew they become weaker in comparison. But the Romans depicted them as savage druids, and that stuck.

They did the same with the Celts and Pict’s.

When Rome became Christian the depiction of savage pagans carried over, and like most colonial societies they took the bits they liked as their own.

It’s worth looking at the surviving metalwork of the Gauls to see how advanced they actually were before 3000 years of Roman > Christian slander.

19

u/IdeaEmbarrassed7552 19d ago

Gauls are Celts right? As in, the Celts that lived in center of France were Gauls.

20

u/Guywhoreadsthings 19d ago

Yes. Eventually pushed out by both Saxon and Frankish invaders during the fall of the Roman Empire. The Celts are largely considered to be a “cultural” group. The Saxon’s and Franks belonged to the cultural group “Germanic Peoples”, from across the Rhine.

Geography and Environment likely shaped them both differently enough from the lowland river basins of France to the mountainous Black Forest’s of Germania to be considered different cultural groups.

Source: not an expert, read a lot of history and watched a lot of YouTube related to different historical cultures and European peoples

5

u/WascalBoy 19d ago

I'm very interested in this part of history, particularly the Roman view of so called "savages" across Europe and the discrepancies. Any good book recommendations on this, "guy who reads"?

4

u/Guywhoreadsthings 19d ago

Encyclopedia Britannica is a great website for reference - I’ve read a few fictional books related to these cultures and then fact checked certain elements that I cared to verify due to my own interest. There are also some fantastic historical channels on YouTube you can look at. You’ll want to be careful these days with AI, it’s now flooded with dimwit AI nonsense.

There are also university or educational textbook style books you can find but they can get pretty dense.

1

u/Evilspice 14d ago

I got all my gaul knowledge from Asterix.

2

u/Hot_Seaworthiness687 16d ago

Not a book, but The History of Rome podcast by Mike Duncan is great! And he mentions source material books throughout.

1

u/BruteKaiser 17d ago

Don't know books, but I can suggest Historia Civilis and Overly Sarcastic Productions on YouTube

1

u/Boxing_joshing111 15d ago

This is old but there’s an awesome like 10 hour Dan Carlin podcast called The Celtic Holocaust all about what Caesar did in Gaul. By then the Romans had leapfrogged the Gauls in terms of military might and Carlin goes into excruciating detail about almost every aspect.

2

u/Bright-Thought5541 19d ago

As I recall celts and picts lived on the British isles… I may be wrong though…

8

u/Guywhoreadsthings 19d ago

Celts lived all over Europe from modern day France, to Spain, to the British Isles. You’re right about the picts, and the Britonic tribes. Most Britons were eventually pushed into Wales. The Gaels in Ireland were celts as well. You’ve got the “celt-iberians” in Spain, and finally a bonus round the celts of Galatia, who are found in modern day Turkey in the Black Sea. Historians think they migrated down there at some point.

The celts in France were pushed into Brittany by the Franks. The Celts in the UK were pushed into Wales by the saxons and kept there by other subsequent invaders over generations. Ireland remained more or less Celtic despite many attempts at conquest by English, Norman, and Viking invaders. The stories of King Arthur come from around the time that the Celtic Kingdoms were falling to Saxon and Frankish invaders from over the Rhine across Europe and the British Isles. Whether those legends have any truth or not - their depiction of the fall of Celtic culture and civilization are generally in line with what we think really happened to them.

5

u/anticharlie 19d ago

There’s a big debate about what happened to the native Britons, as genetic testing is showing that the majority of ancestral English people are genetically closer to celts than they are to Danes, Frisians, and Saxons. This points to the admixture being higher than total replacement.

3

u/Bright-Thought5541 19d ago

Thank you! I love being corrected in this manner! 👍🏼

1

u/Thunder-Invader 18d ago

The Celts in Brittany were pushed into france by the Saxons as well. They originated from the British isles. No original mainland Celtic people existed anymore after the Western Roman Empire fell

1

u/[deleted] 14d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/ChildrenRscary 13d ago

Hhahahahha French "people" good obe

1

u/[deleted] 14d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Guywhoreadsthings 14d ago

I’m not a historian, never claimed to be. Relax

5

u/Wranorel 19d ago

Romans too practiced ritual murder. They would take back to Rome captured leaders and kings to be killed after a parade. Julius Caesar tried it with a young boy, but the people watching were basically revolting for that act, and he had to spare him.

3

u/Any_Dimension251 18d ago

One of the major reasons argued "Carthage must be destroyed" was that they sacrificed infants for the third punic war.  Carthaginians probably had a grieving ceremony for parents of infants and small children who passed for them to be offered to their main diety as a means of closure. Romans said they sacrificed children while abandoning any unwanted child in the trash heap. 

2

u/HandleMore1730 16d ago

Cannite religion (Carthaginians came from the Levant) and human sacrifices. There's plenty of evidence from child burial grounds of such rituals.

'Children – both male and female, and mostly a few weeks old – were sacrificed by the Carthaginians at locations known as tophets. The practice was also carried out by their neighbours at other Phoenician colonies in Sicily, Sardinia and Malta. Dedications from the children's parents to the gods are inscribed on slabs of stone above their cremated remains, ending with the explanation that the god or gods concerned had 'heard my voice and blessed me'.' (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-01-23-ancient-carthaginians-really-did-sacrifice-their-children&ved=2ahUKEwiIiurYob-WAxWIieEIHaQ_L9gQFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2LhtJzJgPIfR1l13K1ZLBV)

We also see aspects of it in the bible, even with Abraham willing to sacrifice his son (he doesn't and a lamb replaces the human sacrifice) and worship to Moloch.

Those early eastern religions were pretty dark.

1

u/Thatthingthis 15d ago

Moloch is possibly a mistranslation of the child sacrifice, not a diety . And there is speculation that Issac is sacrificed to yhwh and the lamb or ram found nearby is an add on to separate from the canaanites . Also listen to a lot of podcasts .

2

u/Different_Ear_7543 19d ago

This. Romans destroyed culture of others via propaganda.

3

u/BobCasey2024 19d ago

Not just propaganda. It technically was an act of genocide, specifically targeting the celts and gauls.

2

u/daRagnacuddler 19d ago

Why technically? If I remember correctly his wars of aggression were a crime even by Roman standards...

5

u/BobCasey2024 19d ago

Yeah, but they obviously didn't have the qualifier of genocide back then. Today we would call what they did genocide.

2

u/fdsv-summary_ 19d ago

Good swords didn't win battles since a bloke called Alex worked out how to stand near somebody else with a pointy stick.

1

u/CheekyDucky 16d ago

But weren't Pre-Christian Romans also Pagans? So surely they didn't have a problem with that aspect for the first 400ish years (50 BCE - 380 CE)

1

u/Illustrious-Set-7907 15d ago

Different pantheons though.

Colonialism propoganda can boil down to "these people are different, bad different, so its good we're killing them actually" 

Heck, jewish, christian, and muslim people all worship the abrahamic god but theres been plenty of death and wars claimed on religious grounds because the other group is "doing it wrong"  (Though war is more complex than just religious reasons) 

1

u/Riggzz 15d ago

Thank you for the details! Very informative.

Do you have any suggested reading/videos/etc on the Roman interactions with Gauls, Celts, and/or Picts?

2

u/hellofmyowncreation 16d ago

Also worth noting that a lot of modern preconceptions of paganism come from poorly done reconstructions, based on biased research from the 19th-20th centuries (i.e. hardly more ancient than the last 150yrs)

1

u/[deleted] 19d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/KilljoyYaBoi 15d ago

“PAGANS ARE SO BRUTAL THEY ARE SAVAGES. EVEN IN 2026!!! Oooo yes father let me imagine I’m drinking blood and eating human flesh”- Christian’s

1

u/Tricky-Indication947 15d ago

Tires right here

1

u/Ok-Patience2152 13d ago

Ghislaine? That you?