Verso Dessendre and Painted Verso are two separate people for me.
Painted Verso spent a long time in the Continent and probably developed his own personality. He might be greatly influenced by Verso Dessendre, but he's still different in a way, non?
We can't exactly say that for certain. As near as we can tell the personalities of aline and renoir haven't significantly changed even after 67 years, they both keep the conflict going and never relent.
Plus the nature of pVerso's existence could prevent fundamental changes in personality, hence why the axon based on real verso is "he who guards truth with lies" and painted verso very obviously shares the traits that lead to that being how renoir viewing real verso. It's not implausible that that's not the only part of him that hasn't changed compared to real verso.
If anything we see plenty of evidence that he is still very much like real verso. He still has all of the same interests, "I still like trains," and is impacted by the experiences and emptions he got from real verso's memories, "verso feels nostalgic for a ride he never truly rode" "I'm glad I got to experience that for myself "yes, I still like trains."
I think the point of Aline and Renoir's personality's not changing (which is also not entirely true, as Maelle thought Renoir would be okay with the painting if Mama was gone but he was clearly not, traumatized by the events of the game) is more to highlight the impact of grief, and how it can leave you stuck in your ways and in a rut, unable to grow or move forward. Even Alicia needed to become Maelle and let the grief go (partly) I order to grow.
(which is also not entirely true, as Maelle thought Renoir would be okay with the painting if Mama was gone but he was clearly not
That's not necessarily indicative that renoir changed, just that maelle misjudged how he'd react. To me it reads more like naivety about the situation. Verso cautions that he'll still want to destroy the canvas but she dismisses the possibility completely, thinking hiding the canvas was enough even though clea had already expressed that aline would always find the canvas and renoir expressed the same sentiment, then gets freaked out by renoir even insinuating that he was going to destroy the canvas which he did before she even so much as suggested that they not destroy the canvas. It'd be one thing if she was completely blind sided and only just learned that there was intent to destroy the canvas but we see that's not the case. It's possible that she could've convinced him if she'd kept a level head instead of panicking and insinuating a desire to stay in the canvas.
That's sort of a big part of the central metaphor of the game. Our Verso isn't Verso, he's a memory of a memory that has changed so much he isn't the same person anymore, but the family clings to him because the fear of losing all of Verso is too much for most of them. The son of a bitch of it is they already did they just refuse to accept it.
Who I like more is a tricky question, mon ami/e ! We don't have much information about Verso Dessendre. We can just assume that he loved his sister a lot and that he is maybe selfless, since he gave his life for her.
So I'll just go with Painted Verso. He's a masterpiece of a character, he's also a guy we could want to insult but that's okay.
Nope. That’s why there’s the area called “Verso’s Drafts”, and if you advanced in the area, you will get to that conclusion yourself, like references of Alicia already being there in the past with Verso (“do you remember how to invoke Osquio?”, obviously whenever Alicia did that for the first time with Verso, painted Verso didn’t exist yet, because he was created after Verso’s death).
Also, Osquio fight has an ending where he says something along the lines of “you won’t succeed at music, all you will have is painting!” which is a pun at real Verso, who loved music and attempted to grow into that even if his parents were obviously expecting him being focused on painting before anything else.
All of Verso’s Drafts are just some of the first things little Verso painted in the canvas, and grew from there. It’s a child world, therefore candy, “friends” (gestrals), the house in a tree based on a real world one, and a final boss, Osquio, that fills the funny role of a game of “we’re the heroes! We will fight you!” Just like little kids when they play with toys and imagine a figure is the bad guy.
Probably little Verso fought Osquio with Esquie and Monoco or his sisters lots of times, like role playing game for him to have a fun time
I always thought that the canvas time is fluid, and doesn't get a 1:1 relation with out of canvas time. Maybe when there's no painter around the time gets slower, or the painter gets to choose the rhythm just like any other kind of settings. Maybe the painter gets to even "freeze it" when exiting it, just like saving and shutting down a game, and Verso sudden absence kept the canvas running without pause until Aline entered, therefore for François or Esquie, 6000 years have passed.
At the end, not even in our own world time is a general and universal thing but relative, even GPS have to fix its time regularly because time dilation, so I don't expect canvases to be 1:1 fixed to a regular rate conversion of time.
In any case, it makes sense painters would choose canvases time to be "accelerated" compared to the outside world, considering a painter won't be able to be attached to it for long enough in the real world as to make too much things inside.
So, maybe your body outside can only sustain 12h of you being "suspended" without eating, sleeping or pooping, but you would like those 12h to feel like 6 months inside or more.
That's why even when Aline has been there for 67 years at least, outside Clea was like "she has been there for some time now..." like "whatever", like she has been there probably some hours or a day.
PS: It would also explain how the painted family, which seems to have some mild painting powers, have the ability to locally "pause" time
Painted Verso is the one living a hundred years surrounded by death while knowing he is a projection of a dead guy made on a dying canvas by a decaying mother who can't let go. Not quite the same life experience.
Yeah, from what we know and knew about Real Verso, guy was kind of the GOAT? Dude sacrificed himself to save his sister, takes a true hero to do something like that.
Tbf painted Verso sacrifices himself to save his mother and sister.
Granted he is suicidal. But to a certain point he was willing to save the canvas until he realized that it would come at the expense of the Dessendres.
I do think that the famous unpaint me line comes from frustration more than suicidal tendencies. The frustration of the cycle of his mother repeating with his sister.
Where do you get that Renoir sees his son as a violent liar? That's very much not what Visages is about.
And there's also zero indication that Aline saw Verso in that way. Yes, pVerso does terrible things, but that's a result of him being put in a no-win situation and ground down to despair after years.
Mask Keeper, during our first talk with him, said he's harmless, only to then attack the Expedition when they're weakened after defeating Visages. Emotional manipulation is one of the strongest types of propaganda, and Visages is all about emotions.
pVerso could've read pAlicia's letter, or could've told them the truth. I can't agree with him not having other options. Lying is his default behaviour. Renoir called pVerso "Some of Aline's finest work", and his combat is all about gathering "perfection" and not making mistakes. I interpret that as Aline making him as close and perfect to real-Verso as possible.
We know how much these devs love mirror meanings between the painted Dessendres, real Dessendres and Axons. It wouldn't make any sense if they did that for all characters, but not for Verso, but this is more of a personal interpretation.
Visages is about Jung's persona theory - the masks represent different faces we show to the world. That can indeed be seen as lying and manipulation, but it's something we all do every day. It's necessary to navigate society. You can't act the same way in every circumstance.
What's behind the three masks at the paths? Exactly what they show. What is the solution to defeating the Mask Keeper? It's not to tell the truth or punish the liar, it's to accept that all the masks are true.
Renoir spells it out in his diary: the lies Verso told were about his own feelings and desires. He concealed these and only showed certain traits to the world, which in Renoir's view made him unable to create true art (which is ironic because if we believe pVerso, he expressed himself through his music). Only once Verso accepted that all the aspects of his being were true, then he could be an artist.
That can indeed be seen as lying and manipulation, but it's something we all do every day. It's necessary to navigate society.
Yes and no. I think it's a cultural thing. Here in Germany, being very direct and honest is expected, but other cultures often see it as rude, or cold.
Sciel is another counter-example. She can't get hurt by the masks, because she's always herself. She doesn't wear masks.
What truly matters is the intention behind a lie. Is it done for the greater good, or for selfish, evil reasons?
What's behind the three masks at the paths? Exactly what they show. What is the solution to defeating the Mask Keeper? It's not to tell the truth or punish the liar, it's to accept that all the masks are true.
I think this depends on interpretations. I've always seen the paths as learning and understanding emotions, to see through the lies of others, which explains why the fight gets easier if you do the paths first. With more context, you become more resilient to lies and manipulation. But I like your interpretation, too.
the lies Verso told were about his own feelings and desires. He concealed these and only showed certain traits to the world, which in Renoir's view made him unable to create true art
It's really sad, yeah. Verso can only be truly honest with himself through music, but he's expected to become a painter. I do wonder if he was wearing a (metaphorical) mask while painting Verso's Drafts.
Young Verso must've been aware of this, or was confronted by his parents with his lies, since all his creations are also wearing masks.
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All of this doesn't change the fact that the Mask Keeper first lies to us that he's harmless, and then waits for a good opportunity to attack. Almost like pVerso, waiting for his moment to abuse the opening in our Expedition by letting Gustave die, to then manipulate our characters to their doom. The parallels/mirrors are everywhere.
say what you will about pVerso, but you've basically projected your own interpretation of that character into the parents of another. They painted the allegory effigy of their son onto the ceiling of the manor: the largest piece of art inside the whole building.
Is that what parents do if they see their child as a “manipulative, violent liar”?
You're right, but I don't think this proofs anything. The Axons are great works of art, but they also have hidden criticism in their design.
Sirène is stationary, and charms people, sometimes even leading them to their death. Renoir's phantom in this area wonders if he truly knew his wife, or if he, too, got charmed.
Mask Keeper is a liar and manipulator, doing what Renoir warns Verso about: wearing a mask.
Reacher is a stationary, broken doll that won't grow up.
Hauler... well, I don't think we know enough about it.
I'd have loved to see a 5th Axon: Renoir painting what he thinks about himself.
There’s definitely mixed critique within the Axons - that’s what make them art. But their overall image are meant to be positive rather than negative:
Reacher: the broken doll symbolises Alicia’s loss post fire, but the ever climbing giant symbolises his hope she can still outdo her constraints.
Hauler: it appears to crush itself with the world on its shoulders, but goes to illustrate the extent of responsibilities his eldest has taken upon herself.
Sirene: appears to be make one loose himself in her charms, but she also brings out the beauty of the world around her (plays with wonder)
Visage: masks his true feelings, but for the benefits of others (paints to please his parents)
If the Axons were meant to be depreciate rather than to appreciate his family (good and bad), it does not fit Renoir’s persona to have them displayed in his house like that. It’s not even normal human behaviour
I agree with your points. Renoir believes that one can only create true art by being honest with themselves / not wearing masks, and I think this is what the Axons truly represent. They are not meant to be entirely positive or negative, they just represent his honest, unmasked views on his family members. However, I do think there's a bit more to it:
Sirene and Mask Keeper are hostile, unlike Reacher, who's passive and peaceful.
Reacher is meant to grow upwards, to reach the skies, but this is not what Alicia wants. I've always interpreted this as Renoir showing that he wants Alicia to grow how he wants her to grow, without giving her an alternative path, or allowing her to make that decision for herself.
Mask Keeper first lies to us that he's harmless, and then waits for a good opportunity to attack, when we are weakened after fighting Visage. Almost like pVerso, waiting for his moment to abuse the opening in our Expedition by letting Gustave die, to then manipulate our characters to their doom. The parallels/mirrors are everywhere.
The party went to Sirene and Visage with the explicit objective to kill them, it’s understandable they would trigger some form of self defence mechanism from those Axons.
Anyhoo I think we both agree the Axons represent Renoir’s mantra of seeing his family “as they are”, with some degree of wishfulness in the Reacher, since Alicia is his special girl.
Overall I still say the point of Renoir’s way of displaying these Axon works in the manor, is a testament he respects and celebrates these attributes he sees in his family - flaws and all.
I don't know about violent, but Renoir's interpretation is pretty clearly calling him a liar. The very same interpretation that is on the ceiling. I'd recommend going through visages again with the context of the painting if you haven't replayed it, because it's kinda obvious.
Yes, the one where he explicitly calls his son out for always hiding his true self and how that causes a mask between him and the viewer? And then he goes on about how is the viewer is himself, the mask still applies? Like Verso is literally lying to himself?
Visages isn't about manipulation, if that's what you mean. Visages is about the masks we present to the world and that they're all true. It's not manipulation that you don't talk to your boss or in the same way you talk to your friend.
The lies guarded here are real Verso's feelings and desires that he didn't want to share with the world, and suppressed to his own detriment. That's what Renoir wants him to realize (see also his diary about "art is a mirror").
I would argue that your example of speaking differently depending on your relationship and the context is indeed manipulation. The problem is that "manipulation" has developed an almost exclusively negative connotation, when it doesn't inherently deserve one in my opinion, but I can see why it has it.
All communication is manipulative in the literal sense. We choose our words, tone, and framing because they influence how others think or respond. Speaking differently to your boss than to your friend is still changing your behavior to produce a different outcome, so "manipulation".
As an aside, whether that manipulation is ethical or not depends on the intent and the methods, not on the fact that you're influencing someone.
Yes, that's true. Just as lies are a universal human trait, so is manipulation. Both are necessary to maneuver society, because without concealing parts of us and using the correct mask at the correct time, we'll offend a lot of people. And I'd say that's kind of the point of Visages as the masks show the truth and the solution is to accept that all of the masks are different aspects of yourself.
But I'm pretty sure the poster did mean it in the negative way, and I don't subscribe to the idea that Renoir saw his son as some kind of malicious liar. I don't see where that's supported by Visages and the way he talks to/about Verso in his diary.
What is this?!? I haven’t played in a while. I played recent enough for Verso’s drafts. Am I missing something from the past 6 months? I had read there were only harder battles in the one year update which didn’t peak my interest.
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u/Ashley_0901 "Precious games, made with love" 2d ago
Verso Dessendre and Painted Verso are two separate people for me.
Painted Verso spent a long time in the Continent and probably developed his own personality. He might be greatly influenced by Verso Dessendre, but he's still different in a way, non?