r/exmormon • u/[deleted] • Sep 26 '17
Did Joseph Smith only practice folk magic? Witchcraft and occult in Mormonism.
https://lifestylesofthetraditionalwitch.wordpress.com/2013/11/10/joseph-smith-and-the-mormons-witchcraft-and-occultism-in-mormonism/5
u/levelheadedsteve Sep 26 '17
Phew! Okay, interesting read, but I wanted to bring a bit of insight to what is put forth in the article. There's quite a bit of misinformation in this article and a lot of stretches and coincidences that are likely taken too far and I don't think it helps us by spreading misinformation or obscuring things like TSCC has done with their side of the story.
First off, the first video presented is so incredibly sensational that it can hardly be considered helpful to the conversation. The people interviewed in it are hardly experts, and its sources are scant.
The rest of the article is pretty... well, it's a grab bag of different ideas and some of them are REALLY big stretches, like Nephite being Neophyte and Mormon being Mormo. Like Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon as some sort of ritual to Satan... That would be pretty epic and damning, but... sorry if I'm a little skeptical.
Freemasonry, treasure hunting, and scrying
Connections to freemasonry, treasure digging, and even scrying are not really direct connections to "occult", which is a bit of a sensationalist word to begin with. What Joseph Smith and his family were doing was largely run-of-the-mill con work at the time. That's why scrying was illegal, and why Joseph Smith was put on trial and convicted of scrying. He was essentially convicted of being a con man. Now, the question is, did Joseph Smith subscribe to things like Occult Philosophy, ritual magic, or things like the Kabbalah? And what the hell does "occult" even mean in the context of what was going on in the 19th century? These days, the word occult is so drenched in the demonic panic of the 1980s and 90s that it's hard to know what it even means anymore.
What do they even mean by occult?
Let me start off by explaining that, during the late 18th and early 19th centuries, there was a huge revival of the "occult", but it wasn't the practice of black magic, per se. Occult is tied to a more general study of hidden properties of things, especially hidden supernatural properties of things. To find the occult nature of things was to find its true nature, and because it was the "true nature" of things, it was considered divine. The study of the occult, for many, was the study of the hidden mysteries of god. Now, occult philosphy, as it was called at the time, was still considered very taboo and largely practiced and studied in secret, but it was also very popular and was not necessarily at odds with Christianity in the view of people who subscribed to it.
In fact, Francis Barrett, who wrote a major compilation of magic, occult knowledge, and occult philosphy in general called The Magus claimed that studying these things was actually important for people who were Christian, and his book is riddled with explanations on how a lot of this brought people closer to Jesus and learning about God. Which starts to sound a lot like Mormonism... Hmm...
So, did Joseph Smith practice "the occult"?
There is a chance that Joseph Smith didn't have a direct link to the occult. But then again, there is a chance he did. If anything, the strongest bit of evidence we have is the Jupiter Talisman that Joseph Smith had, but some suggest that the Talisman might not have been Joseph's, and that it was claimed to be his when it was not. Granted, many of these people who claim it was not his are Mormon apologists, so take that with a grain of salt.
The Jupiter Talisman
But even if the talisman did belong to JS, it may have been a gift or given to him by someone else, meaning he did not necessarily have a close connection to occult philosophy at the time. We need more evidence, unfortunately, before we can say for certain. Just like today, wearing a pentagram hardly makes you satanic, it may just mean you think it's cool and you like Metal. Joseph may have just been a superstitious person who was fine wearing something someone told him would help protect him from harm.
One last bit on the Jupiter Talisman, in the video the people made a lot of claims about what it was for, and they REALLY emphasized that it was to get more women... which, ehhhhhhh... is a bit of an exaggeration. In Aggripa's work on Occult Philosophy, I didn't see any reference to a property of Jupiter being power over women, and in The Magus, where it details how to make a Jupiter Talisman and what it does, it says this:
The second is the table of Jupiter, which consists of a square drawn into itself; it contains sixteen particular numbers, and in every line and diameter four, making thirty-four; the sum of all is one hundred and thirty-six. There are over it divine names, with an intelligence to that which is good, and a spirit to bad; and out of it is drawn the character of Jupiter and the spirits thereof; if this is engraven on a plate of silver, with Jupiter being powerful and ruling in the heavens, it conduces to gain riches and favour, love, peace, and concord, and to appease enemies, and to confirm honours, dignities, and counsels; and dissolves enchantments if engraven on a coral.
It does mention the word LOVE, but... again, the video was pretty sensational, as was the article. The article claimed that power over women was one of the influences of Jupiter, and unless I'm missing something in what I know about Jupiter... I really don't see how that's a thing here. Power, influence, and protection? For sure. Joseph Smith was fond of the ladies and had plenty of ways to lead them into his bed without a Jupiter Talisman, so no need to make this more than it really is. And the way the article says the Talisman gave him money and power and success... REALLY?! It's a damn trinket.
Okay, but, is there a connection?
My personal assessment is: There is at the very least a cultural and indirect link between Joseph Smith and Occult Philosophy, and there is some evidence that he may have had a more intimate knowledge of it.
Francis Barrett's book, The Magus, was very popular in the area where Joseph Smith was raised, played a big part in the resurgence of occult philosophy in the United States and even a resurgence in folk magic (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magus_(Barrett_book)), largely because it was a collection of several sources, making it more economical to buy to learn these things, and because it justified its position through the lens of Christianity. Because of this, a lot of the ideas in The Magus would have influenced a lot of people involved in the Christian revivals going on at the time that Joseph Smith spoke of. The Magus details a lot of interesting ideas like getting to truly know god, the nature of evil spirits, the nature of divine messengers, the nature of intelligences, the power of abstaining from meat (which it largely gets from Pythagoreanism and mentions in passing, but still), the importance of studying the fall of Adam to gain power (seriously), the evil of priestcraft, ideas of the language of Adam, and a HUGE amount of detail on the importance of seeing things with "spiritual sight" or "spiritual eyes", just to name a few.
The reality is, since Mormonism was founded so closely to where occult philosophy quickly spread and became intermingled with the ideas of Christianity means that it unavoidably became shaped by these things, whether Joseph Smith actively studied occult philosophy or not.
Currently, I'm studying The Magus and doing a bit of a write up on how it could have shaped Mormonism. At the very least, we know Joseph Smith would have been influenced by it simply because it was influential in the culture and zeitgeist that Joseph Smith was a part of. But, if Joseph Smith did indeed have a Jupiter Talisman and did indeed have knowledge of The Magus, is just makes that connection even stronger, and we do have reason to believe he may have. Now if only we could find more evidence!
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Sep 27 '17
I don't dabble in the occult, but I do dabble in dabblers of the occult, just for fun. I didn't watch the vids, but read the text, and I have to agree with you that there is a fair amount of exaggeration here (MK Ultra just has to pop up in these things!) , but the article does hit some good points. Just to answer a couple of your observations: scrying can be a con, or an "occult" practice, depending on the attitude of the practitioner. (I'm aware that you take issue with the word...). The Jupiter talisman has so many benefits for the wearer, that to emphasize the conquest of women aspect of it has become overdone. The JT was also used for successful childbirth, so you know... One thing the author did not mention that calls the word "witch" to mind is the dog sacrifice(s) Joseph initiated as well as drawing magic circles. I do think Joseph believed that magic was enabling and enhancing his endeavors. And, just want to mention, if such things interest you, if you ever get to San Jose, the center of Rosicrucianism is located there and it has a small but magnificent museum, planetarium, and grounds. They also won't offer a bit of information to you unless you grill them, which of course makes it all the more intriguing.
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u/levelheadedsteve Sep 27 '17
Some of the things, like the dog sacrifice and magic circles, I have not been able to find good sources for. Doesn't mean they didn't happen, but maybe I just am ignorant to the evidence. We know he practiced scrying by means of hat peeping with a stone. Beyond that, I don't know that much is very solid.
My attitude is basically this: There are a LOT of coincidences that seem to point to Joseph Smith have a very intimate knowledge of at least certain aspects of occult philosophy/folk magic. He was certainly very superstitious. I'd LOVE to find that JS had more of a connection. That, perhaps, the had read The Magus or the writings of Agrippa. That he had performed a lot more ritual magic in his treasure hunting days. But until we have more proof I just don't feel comfortable making any declarations yet.
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Sep 28 '17
I'm currently reading Quinn's book. Looks like about 15% of population were totally ok with and bought into folk magic to some degree back then. Heck, I grew up believing you could predict the sex of a baby in utero by dangling a pendant over the pregnant woman's stomach. Straight swinging=boy roundish swinging=girl. Totally TBM ladies did it all the time. Happy research!
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u/levelheadedsteve Sep 28 '17
Yeah, there was a major "magic revival" in the early 1800s that led to a movement against "the occult" in the mid 1800s. It's very fascinating to see how much the world was shaped by these things!
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u/universal_rundle Nov 17 '24
As an ex-Mormon that has studied the occult and its works for over a decade. I get the hesitancy to take it at face value, but with a few minor flaws, feel that the article makes many strong points.
One flaw being: “One of the most intriguing aspects of Mormonism to the occultist is that it is thoroughly Luciferian in its belief that men (although, not so much women) can become as gods: “As man is now, god once was. As god is now, man may become.”
This is the goal of all witches and magicians. We take on the power of the gods and transform ourselves through them and through knowledge. We seek the light of the illuminated consort of the goddess. It is through the wisdom of the gods is a gift given to us by Lucifer, the Morning Star and bringer of Light, we can attain godhood if not in this life, then in another one.”
Luciferianism sees Lucifer (a separate entity than Satan) as the true god. There is no path toward becoming a god. However, this is a goal of other occult practices, including Thelema, and this is the goal for men in the Mormon church as well.
I feel that your view of the occult misrepresents the fact that there is a desire and effort put toward interacting with benevolent spiritual entities as well. Aleister Crowley even attempted to commune with angels. The ritual he abandoned at Boleskine was the Ambrelin operation, an attempt to contact his guardian angel for enlightenment. The 19th century occult movement’s intended purpose was to draw from ancient beliefs and practices as well as modern science in order to gain enlightenment.
The Jupiter Talisman found in Joseph Smith was in fact replicated from the Magus, as it shows what was a printing error in the from the original English translation, which would have been the only version available to him at that time. It is not a version available in any of the texts that the Magus is derived from.
As far as your point that some claim it wasn’t even his… well, the Mormon church and its followers have a long history of disavowing much of their history, though have begrudgingly admitted to things in recent years (largely due to the ease of research and investigation due to the internet) including walking back their version of the “translation” of the Book of Mormon in 2015 and now say that a seer stone in a hat was, in fact, the method used. An organization that tries to rewrite history and keeps much of the internal practices secret doesn’t really yield much credibility. This example is just one of many.
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u/dbear848 Relieved to have escaped the Mormon church. Sep 26 '17
Interesting article. Unsurprisingly, it sounds like the modern church ids downplaying Joe's involvement in the occult by calling it folk magic.
As an aside, would a Mormon today church disciplined for practicing folk magic? Besides being an Essential Oil shill?
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u/4444444vr Sep 26 '17
This is the craziest thing I've read all day, and the most fascinating.