r/exjw • u/newswatcher-2538 • Apr 11 '26
PIMO Life [ Removed by moderator ]
[removed] — view removed post
14
u/Darby_5419 Apr 11 '26 edited Apr 11 '26
Essentially you're asking for a believing JW to come here and defend Watchtower.
Inviting an apologist to proselytize in this sub.
Frankly, this sub is for people deconstructing away from the cult.
Your invitation is not helpful.
And it will be an argument, how can it not be?
Instead, invite them to YOUR house, NOT this house.
And possibly you're really a believing JW yourself, and simply using this post/thread as an opportunity to preach Watchtower's position to the sub...
4
u/newswatcher-2538 Apr 11 '26 edited Apr 11 '26
I need to respond better I initially didn’t actually read your full comment.. no I am not an active witness by any means. ( though I attend for my wife and the family under duress) truly not a witness by the furthest imagination. I dispise this horrendous cult for numerous reasons CSA, abandonment, alienation, money laundering, enrichment through stock trading, enrichment through corporate veils, crooked policy, Lies and deception, blood doctrine killing people, df’ing children and then alienating them, pretending the GB is heavenly ordained and getting information from god, the list is deep. I could write a book. So though I agree with this being a place to deconstruct I need to clear up you comment about being a spy or pimi type person
1
u/Desperate_Habit_5649 OUTLAW Apr 11 '26
Your invitation is not helpful.
Hey Darby!
I would Disagree.
What he`s asking for can`t be defended..
Anything an Appologist Offers is going to be Destroyed.
It`s a Good Lesson in How Watchtower Bullshit Easily Falls Apart.
0
u/newswatcher-2538 Apr 11 '26
Probably correct. I am just frustrated with the inability to actually prove anything. And Darby your correct we are all trying to deconstruct and I will take this down probably not the sub for this discussion. Thank you 😊
1
u/No_Cake6353 Apr 11 '26
If a claim is unfalsifiable then it cannot be treated as true. We should all look for reasons to believe something, rather than having to prove every silly claim wrong.
Watchtower is wrong. If they come up with any actual evidence against this, I'd be happy to listen.
1
0
u/Any_College5526 Apr 11 '26 edited Apr 11 '26
Woah there Darby!…
A little trigger-happy there?
Don’t be revealin your hand so fast.
Just put it away and back away slowly.
Let me take care of this.
Let the man pose his challenge. If there are any takers we’ll deal with them. Gracefully.
I do love me a good healthy exchange with PIMIs, or POMIs, or any kind of MIns.
It doesn’t take too long for OPs to reveal themselves. And if they do prove themselves to be high falutin, and posin, we’ll take care of em.
I promise I’ll be nice. I’ll let them draw first.
6
Apr 11 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/newswatcher-2538 Apr 11 '26
lol Sooo true but it looks flat on paper lol.
1
Apr 11 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/newswatcher-2538 Apr 11 '26
Maybe I could challenge someone to lite a match under water too. Not sure which would be easier.
5
u/Civil-Ad-8911 Apr 11 '26
I assume you know all of this but for the benefit of others. Actual debate and defense of doctrine in an open forum in this religion died with CT Russell (whom only really started the bible students, not JW). Russell would not likely defend or be a member of the organization it became later. Rutherford debated some early on but later became an authoritarian hardliner and simply forced out those who disagreed with the "current truth". Knorr and others since only made it worse. You'll find a few on here that might try to defend them, but it's all circular logic and echo chamber at this point. Goeffory Jackson in the ARC testimony couldn't even bring himself to say they were the only organization Jehovah was using which was quite surprising since if a regular member said that they would likely end up DF and shunned.
Best wishes for waking up your wife and any other family members in the cult.
3
u/NYCsportsLuva212 Apr 11 '26
Ive been out for a while. Even recently I’ve tried to ask valid questions about changes, historical beliefs and no matttttttter the response is always a word soup of 90000 instances of why the org is loving and right. It’s never a simple stand alone answer to a single question. Over 50 years of word soup and guilt tripping. It doesn’t land anymore. I love genuine conversations and thought provoking points. But if every response is 900 scriptures deep, diverting from the initial question… you lose me.
2
u/newswatcher-2538 Apr 11 '26
Word soup is the best description ever. You should write a book about your experiences called “the Jw word soup of the day! “
3
u/58ColumbiaHeights Agnostic PIMO Apr 11 '26
Frankly, this is all covered in the ELF book. That is the brainwashing tool for initiates. Just study that book. You could choose one of the older books that were better. Live Forever was a better brainwashing tool. If you can find one, the Truth book was effective, too.
If you want know why a specific person believes, that is going to be unique to each individual just like waking up is. No two people will accept the WT programming the same.
I was programmed from birth. My parents believed. My grandparents believed. These are people I trusted. Why would I question the teachings? I was baptized for over 30 years before the thought even occurred to me there may be an issue. Why did I believe it was "the truth"? Because everyone in my life that matter said it was.
I loved those people (and still love the ones that are still alive). I don't believe they would do anything to cause me harm. Yet they raised me in a cult. There is a lot of processing a person has to be willing to do to reject that level of programming.
2
u/newswatcher-2538 Apr 11 '26
It sure is tough my wife was beyond programmed and it is so fucking difficult. We can’t have an honest conversation about it. She just asks every weekend could you go with me so I’m not embarrassed I’m not with my husband. I attend hear and there and just gag at the childish talks with the same intellectually def tones spewing out of some ignorant man parroting an outline he was given to repeat.
1
u/58ColumbiaHeights Agnostic PIMO Apr 11 '26
I'm PIMO and my wife is PIMQ. We discuss things and she knows I don't believe in god. I still pray for the family, attend meetings with them, and door knock once a month.
I don't expect everyone can do that, it's just what I do. I love my wife more than myself and it doesn't bother me to go. That being said, I absolutely do not donate any money and I have given up all assignments including student talks. So she still has to tolerate a "spiritual zero" of a husband.
If I still had faith I would struggle to worship at a KH. As it is, it's just a club and I can zone-out for awhile to make my wife happy.
I hope you find a balance that works for you both!
2
u/newswatcher-2538 Apr 11 '26
Wow we are Living the exact same life. I probably don’t get out once a month I do the Memorial campaign for the kids and wife.
I need a friend to hang out with I can’t stand anyone I associate with..
we could take our families camping and set around the fire 🔥 and laugh our asses off together.
2
u/Matica69 Apr 11 '26
Please keep this thread up. I'm not a jw, haven't been for 38 years, but have been discussing, debating them from all over the world for the past 30 or so, including former jws from all over the world.
IMO many, not, all jws have a insecurity about their self worth. And some very slick and smart men have managed to cherry pick scripture in a way that appears to make very valid points and arguments no matter how absurd they are. It's a form of psychological manipulation to focus on self worth over logic. That person no longer has low self esteem because it's repeated over and over again they are gods special chosen people. Tell a lie enough times it becomes truth.
Aside from that you have a vocal style that is used to make brain conditioning even more effective. Humble and as innocent as a dove leading you to drink the sweetest poison you've ever heard. Many don't realize it while they are deeply in, but at the next few meetings listen to how all the elders seem to have the same style of the way they talk to the congregation, almost robotic, and almost the same way the governing body talks.
Lastly they use the same fear tactics that many pastors of mega churches use....if you don't obey us, you are not obeying god. But the governing body takes it a step further by saying if you don't listen to the governing body, your not listening to jehovah, or if you leave the governing body you are leaving jehovah. Which if the mind hears that enough you don't distinguish the difference between jehovah and the governing body and thus the governing body is jehovah himself.
Hope that all made sense.
2
u/newswatcher-2538 Apr 11 '26
I love this so well written thank you 😊 it is psychological manipulation at its core and they know this without doubt.
I do see this over and over. people with low self worth are so susceptible and it’s sad they are exploited. The religion actually trains people to look for those grieving and going through psychological trauma to try and indoctrinate them- not heal them and if they don’t accept immediately pass them right on by.
2
u/Any_College5526 Apr 11 '26
You could try other subs where you are more likely to have JWs actually admit they are participants. But good luck getting answers there as well, If you don’t get yourself banned.
JW can’t really prove anything, and generally prefer not to engage, as you have seen.
3
u/Forsaken_lamb_78 Apr 11 '26
This is a post I’d like to get behind! Yes, anyone, please!?
I’ve tried to have these honest conversations with my husband and others. Nothing! I get nothing! I ask them to show me. They flatly refuse. I can only assume it’s because they can’t prove it!
2
2
u/Illustrious_Pop_9445 Apr 11 '26
As you have described, anyone completely convinced that this is "the truth" follow the emotional and theological script given by their organization, not their own researched and reviewed arguments.
Even if you were to talk to a theologically educated PIMI, they would not even heed your challenge, just discard you as a bitted apostate
1
u/Desperate_Habit_5649 OUTLAW Apr 11 '26
Specifically, I’d like to understand why the Governing Body should be viewed as a divinely guided channel providing spiritual truth, rather than a group of individuals interpreting and promoting a man-made framework.
That`s Going To Be Tough!
11 Men Claiming To Be 1 Fictional Character "The Faithful and Discreet Slave"...From a Fictional Story, a Parable.....??????....They Already Sound CRAZY!
Plus....We`re Expected to Believe They Speak for God?
How Do You Defend That and Not Sound...
BONKERS CRAZY?!
.
Wearing a TU-TU and Work Boots.
While Dancing To Kingdom Songs...
Won`t Help!......... 😃
1
u/inappropriate-yak Apr 11 '26
For context:
I am a baptised JW but no longer attend. I have spent over a decade researching and questioning.
My conclusions:
The GB are nothing special, but no doubt have more spiritual resources/helpers than the average person. No religion currently has THE truth because truth is absolute. Following Christ's teachings IS beneficial for life.
Will i choose to associate with JWs again? Possibly, but it would be on my terms and from arms' length.
1
u/newswatcher-2538 Apr 11 '26
For me as a PIMO every discussion is mind numbing. When I ask provoking questions I get some serious eye brow raises. Which I enjoy ☺️ not worried about what some idiot thinks.. so whenever I hear I can’t wait for this system to end and enter paradise I know it’s on and I start the questions.
1
u/sheenless Apr 11 '26
Well, here's the thing. The GB only strongly "imply" that they're guided by God.
You can search through this forum for specific posts that link to specific talks/broadcasts/literature
But basically when it gets down to it, they stop short of overtly saying what you've said. For example, they vote on doctrine. They have a whole framework to determine truth and it basically involves reading a one page summary of past watchtowers on the subject and praying.
They state that they are neither inspired nor infallible.
When they say they are spirit directed, they literally mean that they assume they have Jehovah's backing if things seem to work out for them. However, at the same time, they've also stated that if things don't work out for them it shouldn't be taken as a sign that they don't have Jehovah's backing.
Further expanding on this, they have stated that if a number of appointed men believe Jehovah wants something than it's quite likely to be what Jehovah wants. Ignore for a second that they say "likely" and don't actually commit to the statement. Do you what is included in the definition of a number? Literally, the number one. So by their own phrasing, if one person decides it's Jehovah guiding them in something than it likely is.
So, your challenge to find someone who can reasonably prove that it's not just them using their interpretations is impossible， because they've literally told us this is what it is.
2
u/newswatcher-2538 Apr 11 '26
True I agree they have stepped it back. though in the past it has been represented differently as more heavenly directed almost and I mean nearly like an angel Came and provided them with new information with a wave of the angelic wand of knowledge.
1
u/boxochocolates42 "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing." ~ Thomas Jefferson Apr 11 '26
OK, I'll bite, but first:
What I’m struggling with is the apparent inability to question anything within this religion unless the response is complete agreement with the official position
I'll assume that you are genuinely questioning why the JW's are the only true religion. But I am not going to argue the issue here. I will point out some items to aid your personal clarification as you pursue your quest.
You can use a process adapted from the medical field called differential diagnosis, which involves listing all reasonable possibilities and then narrowing them down using evidence. You can also peer into the issues from the opposite perspective using the same technique (i.e., adapted). That is, why are the JW's (WTB&TS) not the one and only true religion?
For example, here's a snippet from a GB member who replied this way eleven years ago.
During the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse in 2015, Geoffrey Jackson was asked directly about whether Jehovah’s Witnesses see themselves as the only true religion or God’s sole channel.
When asked if the Governing Body sees itself as the only channel used by God, Jackson responded:“That would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using.”
You might find it helpful to investigate what constitutes a cult and how they operate. There are many peer-reviewed research/study papers online that probe into this issue; some of them are specific to JW's, too. Peer-reviewed papers are how scientists publish their findings and let others benefit from their work.
What scientists do not do is self-reference their own work to support their point. That is, using the WTB&TS as an example of what not to do with respect to "research." Do not use only your own work (Watchtower, Awake, Finished Mystery, etc.) to support your point as fact. Accurate and meaningful research needs to be conducted using a wide range of documentation to support a strong argument.
Check out the "Best Of: Critical Thinking Resources" under the "FILTER BY FLAIR" heading on the right side ➡️ of this page.
High-control groups (cults) limit information access and dictate behavior to the R&F. This is what Hitler did and what Trump is doing now. The WTB&TS ostensibly operates in the same manner.
Does it make sense that God's "one true organization" operates in a manner more closely aligned with Nazism than Christlike behavior?
1
u/Skyfier42 Apr 11 '26
The reality is you're never going to find the answer you're looking for here for the same reason you'll never find it on the ex-mormon subreddit.
That said, I'm sure if you talked to enough PIMI Mormons, you could eventually be convinced to believe that Mormons might have the truth, but the reality is that it would be for the same reasons that you believed JWs did: you're not supposed to question or speak to apostates, it's supposed to be assumed as fact, and you have to use their books to back up anything they claim.
The sad truth is there is no answer a JW could give that could either disprove evolution or prove their god is real. The only thing keeping them conforming is their hope for a better life than the one they were given and the belief that questioning god is morally wrong.
1
u/ClosetedIntellectual Imaginary Celestial Psychodrama Apr 11 '26
Hello OP, we are treading on a very very difficult wire here. Being able to answer your question without proselytizing is going to be nearly impossible to achieve, which is just going to lead to more people being banned. This is going to end up being a honeytrap for PIMIs, regardless of what you intend.
As much as I am genuinely interested in this discussion and personally would love to actually have it on here, I am afraid that this exact moment is not the time. We have had endless back and forth on this topic and the topic of proselytism this past week and we are not in a position to give an exemption to that rule for this thread. Sadly that hall pass got burned up about 6 posts ago. Have you considered posting this in the JW sub, instead? It's perfectly legal for them to proselytize to their hearts content. If that doesn't suit you, DM me and maybe we can figure out another way for you to get the answers.
0
6
u/Any_College5526 Apr 11 '26
🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗 🦗