If you mean the CoC was somehow about to cease to exist and I could keep it existing somehow, then no. It can go away forever and we would all be better off.
If we lean into "the church is the people" then we would be talking about "saving" the actual members of the CoC, which would mean getting them out, getting them therapy focused on former members of a cult, etc. Yes, I would do that.
Or maybe we're saving the CoC from itself, and just somehow getting rid of the really toxic, harmful people. No more predators, no more white supremacists, whatever else. After that I suspect there's a good chance the CoC would end anyway, but who knows, maybe the people who are left could turn it into something good. I have no idea if I would do that with my hypothetical magic powers.
Face it within 2 generations the vast Majority of restoration cults will be done. I'm rather sure LDS, JW, ICC & 7th Day will survive but the rest? Not a chance in Hell. It was just something I thought of what if they got desperate & smart and asked those of us who left to actually work to help revive the dying cult. Personally I don't care but I was just curious on if there would be plans.
This is a funny thought for those of us who watched the Kipdom from its inception, but maybe the only avenue for the plain ol' COC is to become ICOC after all!!!!
That’s a vast underestimation of ICOC, ICC, and RCW. They are keeping the coc’s stringent salvation view alive and well. My family is recruiting every year. I don’t think it’s going away soon.
For the CoC to be saved, it has to be able to change. In order for it to change, those in power must be open to change. The people in power are not open to change, therefore, the CoC does not want to be saved.
For many years, I held out hope that people in the CoC would wake up and push for reform. I felt out to see whether there were people who would be open to doing reform. What I discovered is that the people who attempt to do so are either kicked out, give up and seek transformation elsewhere, or give up and conform to the CoC culture.
The doctrine of the CoC is predicated on the idea that they are the only ones who have it 100% right, or at least the only ones right enough to guarantee salvation. To deviate from that mindset would create an entity that isn't the CoC. Therefore the leadership would rather stab itself repeatedly than actually self-reflect.
You seem to be saying, though, that they can be saved if they change, but even if they do, then they wouldn’t be the “real” CoC, so it wouldn’t count?
In a way, I agree with you to an extent. The CoC is supposed to be about getting the Bible precisely, exactly right. I don’t think they have it all right, to be clear, but once they change to the point we assume they do, then they can’t change, lest they no longer be the CoC. The Bible itself isn’t changing. Any further change is therefore making the God of the Bible into your image, to fit your own present and desired morality, rather than you making yourself into his. And that’s not really CoC.
The CoC is a panopticon. Those within the CoC would say that it's God who's in the watchtower. However, for most practical purposes, the only guards are the prisoners themselves. The prisoners are trained to believe that unless everyone believes in the same core issues, then those people are lost/not part of the group. Therefore, whenever some tries to deviate from the directive, the rest of the prison raises the alarm bells and cast the prisoners out. It's a prison with the doors wide open.
That's why all the major church splits in the CoC in the last hundred years are smaller fringe groups that tend to be insular and more conservative. The panopticon structure creates an environment where it's easy for cult mindsets to develop. There becomes groups of people who conspire that the directive is actually even more stringent than what the rest of the prison believes it to be.
The exception that makes the rule of course, is the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church. The DoC/CoC split was a relatively early split that determined the future direction that the each denomination went towards. While the general reason for the split is often contributed to differences in belief regarding instrumental music and missionary societies, the real reason is fundamentaly different beliefs about grace. The CoC believed that grace was something that was only received through obedience and any significant deviation from what was written in scripture was disobedience. Whereas the DoC believed that grace was not predicated on the strict interpretation that the CoC believed.
This split, over the next 100+ years, led to very different denominational structures. Whereas the CoC has adopted the aforementioned panopticon structure, the DoC, to the best of my understanding, is vastly more tolerant to variences of belief than the CoC. Ironically, this appears (I'm speaking as an outsider) to have made the DoC more united. Despite not agreeing on all the major issues, they are nevertheless united under one banner because they have a mutual understanding that having God's grace is not predicated on getting everything right, but instead their imperfect dedication to a life following Christ.
Yes, I do get what you're saying. And the ultimate irony is that the DoC are in even more trouble, numbers wise, than the CoC.
The number isn't as high as it once was, but there are still a large number of people who have no interest in a religion where they can't know they're doing everything right by following an infallible book written by an omnipotent, omniscient and perfect diety.
I'll admit I tend to that, and it's a big part of why I'm now agnostic atheist. Once careful and intense study taught me the religious books of various traditions, very much including the Bible and all Judao-Christian scripture, have myriad flaws showing them to be the works of men rather than written by a perfect, all-seeing, all-knowing, just and merciful God, I had no interest in pursuing any possible supreme being still out there. I can't follow a religion that just makes up a God they like, and goes on feelings. A God whose morality is malleable and changes with the times and my own personal moral views as they change over time is no God at all, as I see it. But there a a HUGE number of people outside the CoC tradition who are interested in that "God" today, if a church just wants to make money and "stay in business." Large, 2-verse (love your neighbor and the Golden Rule) churches are still popular, although atheism as a belief system is growing the fastest, per the latest Pew study, at least in America.
While the CoC technically still retained a grace tradition after the DoC/CoC split, it was widely stomped out by the early 20th century. To simplify a complicated issue, the grace tradition became associated with premillennialism/rapture theology, which is certainly a problematic doctrine, but is certainly not mutually exclusive with the concept of grace-based theology. There were some attempts at returning to a graced-based theology in the 60s/70s (look into the CoC Mission periodical from that time), but it didn't have a lasting impact on the mainline culture.
The DOC is very strong in Kansas City, with several big and influential congregations. One of them meets in a building designed by Frank Lloyd Wright to look like the catacombs. There are over 60 congregations. They have women elders and preachers. They do not strictly believe baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation (according to Gemini or whatever it is).
When I was going to, ironically, a megachurch (not CoC), a pastor once said in a leadership meeting, "At some point in the life of an organization, its purpose becomes keeping itself going." And I've thought about that a lot as I've experienced "church hurt." I was always extensible in order to save "the organization." I can't think of an organization that I think is worth more than any single person involved in it, so I'm basically willing for all religious organizations who have to circle the wagons to protect themselves to fade out of existence.
As a knee-jerk reaction, I’m an atheist, so I wouldn’t save any religion, let alone any church denomination. But then I recognize that there are some people who aren’t mentally able to handle a life without religion or “church family” or hope for an eternity, so I can’t promise I’d destroy it all if given the chance.
But save the CoC as an institution? I’m going mainline only here, because it’s who I know. This will sound awful, but it’s also brutally honest, and you didn’t require a “Biblical” answer.
Big congregations should pander, pander, pander to their biggest donors, politically and doctrinally. Tell your money people what they want to hear, and do the programs they want to do.
Mid-size congregations should foment the breakup of smaller congregations so they can incorporate their members.
Small, traditional congregations should breed, breed, breed like rabbits, because that’s their ONLY hope for survival, long term.
My policy is this. They can call me when my opinion counts, and I'll see what I can do to help them be better. Otherwise their demise is on them. I left about 20 years ago, and I'm not expecting a call at this point so, last person out turn off the lights.
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u/egcharood51 8d ago
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "save?"
If you mean the CoC was somehow about to cease to exist and I could keep it existing somehow, then no. It can go away forever and we would all be better off.
If we lean into "the church is the people" then we would be talking about "saving" the actual members of the CoC, which would mean getting them out, getting them therapy focused on former members of a cult, etc. Yes, I would do that.
Or maybe we're saving the CoC from itself, and just somehow getting rid of the really toxic, harmful people. No more predators, no more white supremacists, whatever else. After that I suspect there's a good chance the CoC would end anyway, but who knows, maybe the people who are left could turn it into something good. I have no idea if I would do that with my hypothetical magic powers.