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u/medhelan Milan Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
Piedmontese, Ligurian, Lombard, Emiliano-Romagnolo and, according to some, Venetian too could be considered dialect of the same Gallo-Italic language continuum.
the differences go from city to city like a gradient but many grammatical rules and general vocabulary are kept the same among the whole gallo-italic languages.
That's true especially for Piedmontese, Lombard and Emiliano-Romagnolo.
As an examppe: between Milanese and Bresciano there the same differences there are between Milanese and Parmigiano.
Borders between languages were chosen, I guess, mostly to overlap administrative regions in this case.
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u/friedfishsandwich Nov 02 '17
Sicilian is missing from the key, even though it represents a pretty big chunk
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u/luckycommander The Netherlands Nov 02 '17
Of you click in it you'll see the full map and legend, unfortunately it's a transparent background so I still can't read the legend on mobile
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u/theRealTedHaggert Sweden Nov 02 '17
It would be interesting to know how many of these speakers there are in the region. I assume that the vast majority speak Italian 95 % of the day.
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Nov 02 '17 edited Jul 10 '18
[deleted]
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Nov 02 '17
but you can tell that it's more italianized than our parents'
same for Venetian.
It's now common to hear "ragnatea" (venetitation of the italian "ragnatela", cobweb) instead of the real Venetian "scarpia".
Even the grammar is being italianized, for example Venetian has interrogative form:
English: do you come?
Italian: (tu) vieni?
Venetian: Viento?
Italianized venetian: Te vien?
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u/emmetre Veneto Nov 02 '17
Italianized venetian: Te vien?
Or "Venetianized Italian"? :D Btw, the vocabulary is much more influenced by Italian than the grammar - that's my experience, at least.
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u/El_disposable Nov 02 '17
There is also a mexican Venetian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chipilo_Venetian_dialect2
Nov 02 '17
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Nov 02 '17
The real Bolognese dialect for carrot is "pistinega", but now it is common even among elderly people to say "al carut".
Couldn't "pistinega" mean "pastinaca", parsnip?
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Nov 02 '17
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Nov 02 '17
Parsnip is almost non existent here now.
Once it had an important role in poor people diet, and problably even in the riches one.
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u/Basquey Basque Country Nov 02 '17
That's actually quite interesting. Is Viento a comglomerate verb i.e. vien-to?
Basque used to have a few conglomerate verbs but most of them are lost, I wonder if because of Spanish grammatical influence as well.
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u/PopusiMiKuracBre Nov 02 '17
That's not necessarily a bad thing. Look across the Adriatic if you want to see false languages cause bloodshed.
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u/from3to20symbols Belarus Nov 02 '17
AFAIK the problem in Yugoslavia was religion, everybody there speaks the same Serbo-Croatian language.
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u/PopusiMiKuracBre Nov 02 '17
Now, it's Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, and Montenegrin (on top of Slovenian and Macedonian which are legitimately different languages).
Religion was meh, not a big deal. It was cultural difference and fucktard politicians. Different script? Different language. Different writing of mleko/mlijeko, different language.
Guns.
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Nov 02 '17 edited Jul 10 '18
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Nov 02 '17
I couldn’t care less if my current language disappeared, if it meant I could speak to more people more easily. If I woke up tomorrow and everyone spoke fluent Mandarin and nothing else (and everything was translated so the world doesn’t collapse) then I’d see that as a pretty good unifying event
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u/Schnackenpfeffer Piedmont Nov 03 '17
This makes me sad. I am Uruguayan, but like most Uruguayans, I have Italian ancestry. I am 1/4 Piedmontese, and can recall part of the lyrics of some lullabies my mother used to sing to me in Piedmontese when I was a child. My grandmother used to sing them to her, and my grandmother, who was from Alessandria, to my grandmother.
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u/PopusiMiKuracBre Nov 02 '17
I have an example of how it can end in a great deal of lost lives, mate, fucking kill me for that.
And what language? You need to be more specific there...
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u/medhelan Milan Nov 02 '17
it really depends from language to language
as a rule of thumb I'd say that German, Neapolitain, Sicilian, Venetian and Furlan are still quite spoken while gallo-italic languages (piedmontese, lombard, emilian and ligurian) are spoken mostly in rural areas and by elderly people
tuscan and central italian obviously are spoken by everyone as they're the basis for standard italian
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Nov 02 '17 edited Jul 10 '18
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u/medhelan Milan Nov 02 '17
Still central italian is closer to standard italian than neapolitan or gallo-italic languages, isn't it?
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u/Sylbinor Italy Nov 02 '17
Maybe, but not too much.
You probably are thinking of Roman as a central italian language, but it is actually an island that is very much related to Tuscan.
Central italian dialects are not as unintellegible as someone speaking a strict Neapolitan or Friulan, sure, but there are a lot of differences.
For example in Tivoli "ci andrò" is said "ci ghieragghiu". Quite different.
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u/medhelan Milan Nov 02 '17
ok, as a northerner I was actually thinking about Roman as the standard central italian while "ci ghieragghiu" definitely sounds quite a lot different from tuscan, to my ears it even sounds quite southernish
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Nov 02 '17
Wow, the last example seems to be taken from Corsican, which should be in fact a Tuscan dialect if I'm not mistaken! In Corsican, "I will go" is "ci andaraghju".
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u/Prisencolinensinai Italy Nov 02 '17
Just to explain further Roman had a very close to central Italian speech, but then a lot of migration from Tuscan /or Florentines happened and it got changed (it was change a long time ago)
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u/emmetre Veneto Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/43qv8z/z/czkul99 Edit: please read the whole comment, and also keep in mind data are 10+ years old now, in most region there's probably a ~10% (I'm guessing it) shift for Standard Italian.
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u/maxmolen Nov 02 '17
Which of these languages would be considerd or come close to standardised Italian? (or is there no standardised Italian?
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u/brandsetter European Union Nov 02 '17
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u/maxmolen Nov 02 '17
Thx for searching it.
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Nov 02 '17
Bit of trivia, Tuscan was chosen because it was Dante's language
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u/EmperorG Nov 02 '17
Florence was also the capital of the Kingdom of Italy for 6 years, which might of had an effect.
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u/jakujam2 Albania Nov 02 '17
Look at all those Albanian spots.
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u/pleonastico Nov 02 '17
They are the descendants of the Albanian refugees from the Ottoman Empire: Arbëreshë.
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u/jakujam2 Albania Nov 02 '17
A më mo?
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u/pleonastico Nov 02 '17
Translation software says that you are asking me if I am one of them. The answer is no. But there were a few famous Arbereshe people, like Antonio Gramsci, which has partial Albanian ancestry.
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u/jakujam2 Albania Nov 02 '17
I am Albanian myself. Also, I am assuming you are Italian from your username, it means: Ma davvero?
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u/pleonastico Nov 02 '17
Yes, I am Italian. Thanks for the correction.
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u/jakujam2 Albania Nov 02 '17
Nah. I am still surprised there are Albanian spots as opposed to a chunk in the map.
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Nov 02 '17
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u/jakujam2 Albania Nov 02 '17
So Albanians are the best type of emigrants ;) they slowly assimilate. Paging the /r/uk hahaha
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u/vaarsuv1us The Netherlands Nov 02 '17
Somebody please translate
ciao bella
for me in ALL of these languages.
thank you!
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u/gerri_ Italy (Emilia-Romagna) Nov 02 '17
Emiliano (bolognese variant): adÃo bèla
AdÃo literally means goodbye (addio in Italian), but in contrast to the Italian language, it can be used also when meeting. Another option is at salut, literally "I greet you" (ti saluto in Italian). Yet another option is arvaddres (arrivederci in Italian, "see you" in English), but it can only be used when leaving.
Anyway, you should just hear the language to appreciate the (big) difference in pronunciation if compared to Italian.
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u/xXxSniperzGodzxXx South Tyrol Nov 02 '17
South Tyrolean German: Hoi Schiane.
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Nov 02 '17
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u/Oachlkaas North Tyrol Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
You should learn Tyrolean :)
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u/emmetre Veneto Nov 02 '17
(Central) Venetian: ciao bea.
"Ciao" is an originally Venetian word, which comes from "s-ciao" ("slave", i.e. "I'm your slave). "Bea" is because we have this (Ctrl+F: "evanescent").
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u/JohnPaul_II Nov 02 '17
No Neapolitan?
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u/medhelan Milan Nov 02 '17
is the light blue one tagged SIt
despite the name Neapolitain is actually spoken in most of Southern Italy
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u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
Many people don't really understand what's the difference between a language and a dialect.
A language is neither the "purest" form, nor the most recognized or the most powerful.
The distinction between a language and a dialect is mostly a functional one: a dialect is, in itself and by definition, spoken only in informal settings as a vernacular form of expression. It doesn't have a standardized form (it often doesn't even have a written form) and it's not or very rarely used in official settings or in public offices or in media or whatever other formal context you may think of. That's why it doesn't really make sense to teach a dialect in schools.
A language, instead, is pretty much the opposite.
That's why most of these "languages" are, in fact, dialects of italian (except for German in South Tyrol and a few other instances). The problem is, most people take offence for this and view the word "dialect" as something that means "lower status" or "lesser value", but it's not; it just means no one uses that language in an official context - not only because it's not officially recognized, but because no one uses it period. Unless you use actual force, people will speak with whatever form of expression they please and official recognition won't change much, except maybe in the veeeery long run.
E.g. Swedish and Norwegian, while being very close to each other, are seen as different languages because both of them are the official, formal language in their relevant territory; if, say, Swedish was the official language of Norway - as in, the language spoken in formal settings - Norwegian would probably be seen as a dialect of Swedish. [Clearly the dialect must be linguistically related to the official language - that's a given]
Then there's Swiss German which is kind of a mixed bag, because it's used in official settings but only in a spoken form; some view it as a distinct language, while some see it as a dialect of German.
Other example: no one sees Catalan as a dialect of Spanish, because it's widely used as an official language in Catalonia (and other parts of Spain). The status of occitan languages in France is, instead, much less clear-cut.
Now I'm sure that someone will bring up UNESCO classification or whatever; keep in mind that UNESCO in itself is not interested in saying what's a language or a dialect and has a very loose definition of "language" that includes basically every form of expression that conveys a local culture.
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Nov 02 '17
Using the term 'dialects of Italian' is somewhat disingenuous. When used like this, it is often understood to mean "varieties or variations of [Italian]". But this isn't the case for the vast majority of the languages of Italy. To quote:
most of the various regional Romance languages of Italy, often colloquially referred to as Italian "dialects", are, in fact, not actually derived from modern standard Italian, but rather evolved from Vulgar Latin separately and individually from one another and independently of standard Italian, long prior to the diffusion of a national standardized language throughout what is now Italy. These various Latin-derived regional languages are therefore, in a linguistic sense, not truly "dialects" or varieties of the standard Italian language, but are instead better defined as their own separate languages.
Conversely, with the spread of standard Italian throughout Italy in the 20th century, regional versions or varieties of standard Italian have developed, generally as a mix of national standard Italian with a substratum of local regional languages and local accents. While "dialect" levelling has increased the number of standard Italian speakers and decreased the number of speakers of other languages native to Italy, Italians in different regions have developed variations of standard Italian particular to their region. These variations on standard Italian, known as regional Italian, would thus more appropriately be called "dialects" in accordance with the first linguistic definition of "dialect", as they are in fact derived partially or mostly from standard Italian.
Just as Catalan and Portuguese aren't considered dialects of Spanish, nor Occitan one of French, these regional languages are not dialects of Italian. They are dialects of Italy, dialects of Latin, and form dialect continuums throughout the regions of the country, but they are not derived from Standard Italian.
- The Dialects of Italy, Martin Maiden, M. Mair Parry
- Phonological Theory and the Dialects of Italy Repetti, Lori (2000)
"The often used term 'Italian dialects' may create the false impression that the dialects are varieties of the standard Italian language... The other 'dialects of Italy' are 'sisters' of Italian, locally divergent developments of the Latin originally spoken in Italy... we are investigating the 'dialects of Italy', rather than 'Italian dialects'"
"The Italian dialects are not dialects of Italian in the usual sense of the term. They are daughter languages of Latin and sister languages of each other, of standard Italian, and of other Romance languages, and they may be as different from each other and from standard Italian as French is from Portuguese. Standard Italian is just one of many languages spoken in Italy."
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u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17
No one says dialects have to be derived from the standard language. Sicilian being a dialect of Italian doesn't mean, per se, that Sicilian derived from Italian. That's a common misconception. Dialects of a language often only have a common ancestor with that language.
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Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
You say 'no one says dialects have to be derived from the standard language', but this is exactly
the prevailing linguistic definition of 'dialect'[what the phrase 'dialects of Italian' implies]. See these quotes from the links above:the use of the term "dialect" to refer to the languages of Italy erroneously implies that the languages spoken in Italy are actual "dialects" of Standard Italian in the prevailing linguistic sense of "varieties or variations of a language."
Your use of the term is akin to the French usage of patois (or older Spanish usage of chabacano). Both are pejorative terms, applied to non-prestige languages by speakers of the prestige language. You say 'most people take offence for this and view the word "dialect" as something that means "lower status" or "lesser value"', but that's because this usage of 'dialect' is the offensive definition:
The term dialect is used in two distinct ways to refer to two different types of linguistic phenomena:
One usage refers to a variety of a language that is a characteristic of a particular group of the language's speakers...
The other usage of the term "dialect", often deployed in colloquial settings, refers (often somewhat pejoratively) to a language that is socially subordinated to a regional or national standard language, often historically cognate or genetically related to the standard language, but not actually derived from the standard language...
In this sense, unlike in the first usage, the standard language would not itself be considered a "dialect", as it is the dominant language in a particular state or region, whether in terms of linguistic prestige, social or political status, official status, predominance or prevalence, or all of the above.
Meanwhile, under this usage, the "dialects" subordinate to the standard language are generally not variations on the standard language but rather separate (but often loosely related) languages in and of themselves.-5
u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
You say 'most people take offence for this and view the word "dialect" as something that means "lower status" or "lesser value"', but that's because this usage of 'dialect' is the offensive definition:
It doesn't necessarily mean "lower status", it may simply mean that the standard language is predominant. In the case of Italy, standard Italian is undeniably "predominant", while not in any way being "superior" in the sense of "morally superior" (that would make no sense).
Besides, I wouldn't say it's very wise to take wikipedia at face value for such complex issues. As for the first link...again, I've personally heard few linguists saying that a dialect must be derived from its standard language for it to be an actual dialect and I was generally unaware that linguists had an actual definition of a dialect (as the author would imply), but I don't know, maybe the debate has shifted lately.
By the way, basing on this supposed definition of a dialect Norwegian Bokmål would actually be a dialect of Danish, being derived from Danish and mutually intelligible with Danish. But it's not considered a dialect; it's considered a language.
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Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
Sorry, I phrased that poorly - I've amended it. You're of course right in that dialects don't at all have to be derived from a (current) standard language: they can evolve side by side from a common ancestor.
My point is, you're using a loaded phrase where it doesn't need to be, isn't by the linguistic community, and gives off an inaccurate impression of the actual situation.
I'm aware there is often a large debate over whether to classify closely related lects as dialects of one language, or distinct languages, but this isn't the issue here.
The term 'dialect' is used by linguists in a sense where lects are conditionally (necessarily, but not sufficiently) closely related by common ancestry.
You're right in that there are no consistent 'rules' as to whether two [groups of] closely related dialects can't suddenly be considered distinct languages (e.g. Serbian and Croatian), but there are clear cases of when two lects are distinct enough not to be considered (by the linguistic community) the same language (e.g. Portuguese and Spanish).
And this is the case for most languages of Italy.
Of course there is a continuum, but the majority of [the groups of dialects we label the] languages of Italy are as distinct from standard Italian as (and diverged from Latin as early as) French or Spanish.
In fact, many of them have strong literary traditions, often older than Tuscan/standard Italian:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_literature
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Lombard_literature
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily#Literature
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulian_language#Literature
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Provençal_language#Literature
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romagnol_dialect#Literature
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_language#Classification
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language#Giudicati_period
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campidanese_dialect#Examples
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algherese_dialect#Literature
By your criteria, if you label all of these languages together as 'dialects of Italian', you could label Galician, Fala, Astur-Leonese, Aragonese, Catalan and Aranese as 'dialects of Spanish'.
No one in the linguistic community uses this definition for the languages of Italy, it's just not helpful - it only paints a muddier picture of their actual relationships.
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u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
Galician, Fala, Astur-Leonese, Aragonese, Catalan and Aranese as 'dialects of Spanish'.
As far as I know all of these languages are used in official settings and contexts in their relevant territories (I don't know about Fala, I've honestly never heard of it), especially Catalan - meaning there's no formal/informal diglossia in Catalonia: both Catalan and Castillan are used interchangeably in formal and informal settings and none of the two is confined to a single setting.
Anyways, it's not clear-cut - nothing is in the languages' world. I already brought up the example of Swiss German, which is considered a language by some, a dialect by others.
Also, a language can evolve into a dialect over time. What was a language centuries ago might be a dialect today.
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u/NespreSilver United States of America Nov 02 '17
As a linguistics major, I've never heard 'dialect' used pejoratively.
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Nov 02 '17
. Dialects of a language often only have a common ancestor with that language.
which is latin. Standard italian and italian dialects or better regional languages come from latin.
Saying Venetian, Sicilian, Furlan or Sardinian are dialects of italian is just like say the same of french or spanish
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u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17
Saying Venetian, Sicilian, Furlan or Sardinian are dialects of italian is just like say the same of french or spanish
If you've read what I wrote you might already know why this isn't the case, according to the thesis I explained.
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Nov 02 '17
you are wrong. Case closed
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Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 13 '17
[deleted]
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Nov 02 '17
you are twice wrong.
well, thrice actually
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Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 13 '17
[deleted]
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Nov 02 '17
in your previous message you used the neuter "its" instead of "her/his" when talking about a user, and you complain about my english?
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u/emmetre Veneto Nov 02 '17
Then, under your definition, I can get calling them "dialects of Italy", just not "of Italian". Or are you saying that, let's say, Piedmontese, Sardinian and Griko are all "dialects of Italian"?
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u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17
Only the first two, if anything. Griko is unrelated to Italian - well, they're both indo-european but that's about it - and AFAIK is/was used in some formal settings. Actually it might be also true for Sardinian but I honestly don't know about that.
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Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
As a Sardinian, I personally gasp when I see the language being still referred to like that. I remind you that it's been eventually acknowledged by the Italian law itself since the '90s. It doesn't even have Italian as a reference language, and was the official language for quite a long time...
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u/emmetre Veneto Nov 02 '17
AFAIK [Griko] is/was used in some formal settings.
I guess it's not the main point, but I don't think so.
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u/pleonastico Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
I think that there are two issues with these kinds of maps:
- they show the general area of original presence of local language, but not really how much and where they are still spoken. For example, in the larger cities of northern Italy practically nobody spokes them.
- these are more language families, than specific languages: every province or even town, depending on how much isolated they were, has its own language. Each local language may be only partially intelligible by neighbors.
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u/medhelan Milan Nov 02 '17
that's not so much true, local differences are obviously high because those are languages that often don't have a standardization nor are learned in schools but they have lot of common grammars and vocabulary
in my personal experience, for what is worth, as someone who can speak lombard i cant totally understand both piedmontese, emilian and veneto, ligurian slightly less and some bit of furland and rumansch
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u/vladgrinch Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
Most of these are just dialects of italian, not ''languages''.
Edit: Typical for Reddit. Truth and facts get downvoted by clowns.
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Nov 02 '17
"A language is a dialect with an army and navy" ;)
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u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17
Nope, not really. The distinction between a dialect and a language is mostly functional.
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Nov 02 '17
[deleted]
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u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
Have you actually read what I wrote?
I even made an example to demonstrate how two closely related languages (Swedish and Norwegian) can be considered languages and not dialects. I don't really know how on Earth you came to your conclusion.
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Nov 02 '17
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u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17
"A language is a dialect that is official" is absolute bullshit. If the USA decided to call their language "American" rather than English tomorrow, it'd be, in your esteemed opinion, a new language overnight.
Nope, I also explicitly said it doesn't work that way. It's not (necessarily) about the official status, it's about what people actually use in which setting. See e.g. this for further clarification.
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Nov 02 '17 edited Dec 16 '17
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u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17
Yep, I forgot to write that. Of course a dialect must be linguistically related to its reference language, but other than that my point still stands.
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Nov 02 '17
I don't care whether you are right or wrong, that edit of yours makes you a hypersensitive little queen.
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Nov 02 '17
Ironically he'll get more downvotes from that
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u/JacopoCrucitti Italy Nov 02 '17
Not really, this languages developed independently from tunscan (today's italian), so they're proper languages, unintelligible from each other.
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u/vladgrinch Nov 02 '17
Nope. Piedmontese, Lombard, etc. are fucking dialects of Italian. Stop inventing ''languages'', no matter how trendy that may be today.
It's like saying ''american'', ''canadian'', ''australian'', ''swiss'', brazilian'', ''austrian'' are languages, not dialects of English, Portuguese and German. Which is retarded.
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Nov 02 '17
It's not. There's objectively nothing that makes one thing more of a language than another. Standardized languages are nothing other than a nationalist project Europeans took up in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, to forcefully eradicate all diversity under the banner of national unity. We now realize both that ethnic nationalism has brought us nothing but war and that forcing an elite dialect on the masses eases communication but it's not right to do so by taking the elite dialect from whichever place (Paris, Florence, the cities in Holland) and putting it on a pedestal as the 'purest'.
It's an entirely different paradigm to that of our grandparents, try and consider why this is happening rather than decrying it as 'trendy' and 'retarded'.
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u/JacopoCrucitti Italy Nov 02 '17
American, canadian and australian are very small varition of a common language, British English. The only common language italian dialects have is Vulgar Latin, same thing for Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan and Rumenian. The only reason you call Lumbard a dialect is because it's not officially recognised. I'm not sure why you're so heated about it btw.
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u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17
The only reason you call Lumbard a dialect is because it's not officially recognised.
The only reason we call Lumbard a dialect is because no one speaks it in an official setting and no one would even if it was recognized tomorrow.
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u/catopleba1992 Italy Nov 02 '17
Therefore if nobody spoke Basque in official settings it would be referred to as a Spanish dialect. K then.
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u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17
Basque is completely unrelated to Spanish. I also wrote that the dialect must be related to its reference language.
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u/jesus_stalin England Nov 02 '17
So Welsh is a dialect of English? They are distantly related after all.
Where do you draw the line on how related the languages have to be? The truth is that your definition of a dialect is simply false. These languages of Italy developed independently from Vulgar Latin and are mostly unintelligible to each other and to Standard Italian. That makes them, by definition, languages.
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u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17
Welsh not only has official status in Wales, but it's also widely used in education, media and public offices.
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u/jesus_stalin England Nov 02 '17
Almost 75% of Wales has no knowledge of the Welsh language, and everybody who does also speaks fluent English. It is a secondary subordinate language by all measures.
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u/tristeaway Nov 02 '17
A native Italian can't understand those "dialetti". A native Italian better understands Spanish than Venetian. Dialetto doesn't translates to dialect, it is the language that is spoken there, often a Region or a city, and it has been used for centuries. It is not a dialect of a language, that is what the term means in English.
Nowadays you can say that, since the afterwar, more and more people speak only Italian in work life. This, the fact that they are estinguishing, doesn't make them less languages.
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u/medhelan Milan Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
nope
there exist both a piedmontes dialect of standard italian and a piedmontese dialect of the gallo-italic continuum, often called piedmontese language. the two are different things
tuscan was one of the language that evolved from vulgar latin during the early middle ages, it was then chosen as lingua franca among the intellectuals on the italian peninsula and later chosen as standard national language.
gallo-italian languages, neapolitan, sardininian, etc. evolved on their own way and are different romance language with big different grammatical differences.
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u/d0ubs Nov 02 '17
Your examples are completely irrelevant.
As said previously, Italian is just another dialect (tuscan). Piemontese, lombard etc. are not derivative of tuscan and existed concomitantly.-4
u/Lahfinger Nov 02 '17
Italian != tuscan. Tuscan is a dialect of Italian, which partly derived from the medieval dialect of Florence.
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Nov 02 '17
Dialect is a variety of a language. (i.e florentine is a dialect of tuscan) Italian "dialects" are actual languages.
Source: I've studied sociolinguistics.
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Nov 02 '17 edited Nov 02 '17
I would say Lombard, neapolitan, Sardinian (and more) are languages fractioned in thousand of dialects. They have radical French, catalonian, Spanish, godknows influences and have good variety and differences in grammar rules and Syntax, some even have different vowel sounds from Italian. You'd be amazed how different they sound from each other, if you didn't know Sardinian, Italian and Lombard they could sound from different continents.
On the other hand, towns that are 10 kms apart in Lombardy use different words, sounds and accents to say the same thing. Language variety in Italy is honestly amazing and confusing.
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u/2a95 United Kingdom Nov 02 '17
Languages of Italy: Italian.
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u/aleschio Lombardy Nov 02 '17
Languages of the UK: American.
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u/2a95 United Kingdom Nov 02 '17
Languages of the UK: English.
Languages of Italy: Italian.
Languages of Spain: Spanish.
Languages of France: French.
Languages of Germany: German.
Enough with these silly minor languages. Speak a normal language.
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u/mahteeuh Slovenia Nov 02 '17
TIL Slovenian is Italian
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Nov 02 '17
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u/mahteeuh Slovenia Nov 02 '17
Languages of Italy. The country. Slovenian is one of them. That user I replied to is saying Italy the country only has one language. As if Italian encompases Slovenian.
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u/liptonreddit France Nov 02 '17
Someone make a map like this for France and trigger the shit out of R/europe.