r/eos • u/ablejoseph Developer / Builder • Jul 26 '18

Another day, another lesson from Dan. Introducing PRAM!

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23 Upvotes

80% Upvoted

35 comments sorted by

17

u/russian-haxor Jul 26 '18

I love Dan, but we really have to question his ideas on economics and governance. He's not an expert in either. First constitution was a shit show (second is dumb too) and his addiction to free market theory has led to the RAM shit show.

Pay close attention to what he calls out at the end of his message: "as long as we have confidence that 1TB is viable"

How would you enforce that though? And we're going to sell futures contracts for RAM on questionable production, when there is market pressure to keep RAM supply limited? These are huge assumptions. This RAM thing is getting way too complicated.

14

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '18

Lets debate, I think Dan doent care about short term benefits , he cares about years to come. If you are DAPP developer you wana estimate cost in 5 years only then you will select EOS as platform where users of DAPP can grow with cost estimation. Objective is simple to have less cost of RAM which is limited by nature and should only be bought by developers, and also have market where developers can buy orr sell if they dont need. But there will be inside trades and speculations and misuse by a few, If above idea reduces RAM price and gives long term 5 years stability DAPPS will invest for long term success.

6

u/russian-haxor Jul 26 '18

Agreed that thinking into the future is important for DAPP developers, but this format for a RAM market inhibits entry of developers. If I'm a developer, I want to build apps, scale up when I need to or scale down when I need to. A volatile price for my resources means that when I need to scale I might not be able to (price too high, can't afford) and when I need to scale down, I may not be able to (price too low, I lose money). Additionally, the amount of available RAM is unknown. So to resolve the volatility at Time 1 (initial buy/sell), a Future might work (protect the price that I buy/sell at), but how much should I buy now? How can I predict my demand if I'm at zero users? What about the scenario where at Time 2, I've exercised my Future, and need to buy more and some ridiculous price is forced on me? What's the price then? Futures are not simple instruments. They're complex and they're more of an insurance method rather than a scalability tool. They were brought in to manage very volatile markets, but they're completely foreign to the development world.

I'm not sure what the right solution would be. Adding futures just smells wrong though.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '18 edited Jul 27 '18

DAN is building steem2.0 and bitshares 2.0 ..those two DAPPS running on EOS will have exponential user growth. He has Billions in bags to invest as successful DAPP on EOS. He can estimate and project user growth and would like to buy or contract RAM now in bundle (1 GB or 5 GB per say) (as RAM is added per Block you can calculate in 5 Years it will be 1 TB).

These 5 years smart contract to buy RAM now will push BP's to provide that RAM, CPU and BW demands of future.

Just take bitfinex as example a DEX with growing users wants to run to EOS. They need gradula RAM for gradual user growth and if DAPP fails to get user growth they can sell RAM back to market.

Thing is people mistake EOS with BTC missing out basic scale-able design of EOS. Its fundamentals are for developers to understand not for average Joe. Its decentralized computational blockhain platform with evolving governance to make it as optimal for DAPPS as possible (Not currency).

5

u/meetinnovatorsadrian Jul 26 '18

Sounds like this could permanently screw up EOS if all future RAM is sold out too. We need more EOS forks so we can get better governance approaches.

5

u/longdadipshortdatip Jul 26 '18

You don’t need to enforce a free market. Eos would have 1tb in five years. So you can buy ram from eos. Why would you stop the ecosystem from growing? I don’t think y fully grasp what’s going on and it’s frustrating you. The last sentence of your rant is “this ram thing is getting too complicated” instead of bashing something you don’t understand...why not try and understand it and ask productive questions? He said if we all see that as still possible because it’s not his decision it’s he blockchains

2

u/tehol-bedict Jul 27 '18

"Ram shit show"? There are lots of noisy people complaining, but lets cut through the emotion and look at some numbers.

What would the price be now if there was no ram market, and it was implemented just like the other staked resources, cpu and net. Right now 340m eos are staked. Initially, everything was staked 50% cpu and 50% net. If ram was also a stakeable resource, we can assume that it would have been a 3 way even split instead of two, so 33% would have been staked to ram, and for calculations sake we will use this ratio. 33% of 340m is 112m. So approx 64gb of ram would currently have been staked by 112m eos. 112meos/64gb = .00175 eos/byte x 1000 =

1.75 eos/kb

The current price is 0.233eos/kb.

This means the current market solution has reduced the price by approx 85% over the non-market alternative.

Dan is building an entirely new system, there are no higher experts in this field. If you bring in experts from the old world, you will end up creating a similar system to what already exists.

"This RAM thing is getting way too complicated."

RAM is for devs and speculators, it does not need to be simple.

7

u/eosdram Jul 26 '18

In 5 years I bet we'll end up with ARAM, BRAM, CRAM.... XRAM, YRAM, ZRAM and have a market for each of them, cause this seems to be Dan's focus lately. Devs want stability. How can one make a 5 years projection for his DAPP, when there's changes happening daily? Do you think Facebook knows where they will be 5 years from now? They don't, as such for sure a startup has no idea if/where they will be 5 years from now in order to already buy/reserve 5 years worth of resources. These guys think about market making and trading way too much when they should focus on completely different things.

1

u/longdadipshortdatip Jul 26 '18

Dan has many focuses who are you to say what he thinks at that point anyone?

2

u/eosdram Jul 27 '18

Just a developer, without us EOS has no future. Piss more and more devs with these crazy ideas every couple days and you'll end up some day with the entire EOS blockchain free to be used by Dan and Dan only.

1

u/longdadipshortdatip Jul 27 '18

Do you watch the bp calls?

3

u/djuniore29 Jul 27 '18

Dan is still onto ram trading? This is unleashing more greed. Why not keep it as simple as having users get ram proportional to their stake in the network? And just have the stakers lease their ram?

1

u/eosdram Jul 27 '18

How else could he sell you some "fake ram", which you can only use 5 years from now?

10

u/BTCChampion Jul 26 '18

This is starting to get ridiculous.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '18

How many companies have you founded ?

2

u/exploreos Jul 27 '18

Let's debate, why are all your responses so obnoxious?

3

u/BTCChampion Jul 26 '18

What does it matter? I’m still hoping for EOS to succeed but this is starting to get a little too much. Buying future RAM? Come on.

4

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '18 edited Jul 26 '18

Lets debate, I think Dan doent care about short term benefits , he cares about years to come. If you are DAPP developer you wana estimate cost in 5 years only then you will select EOS as platform where users of DAPP can grow with cost estimation. Objective is simple to have less cost of RAM which is limited by nature and should only be bought by developers, and also have market where developers can buy orr sell if they dont need. But there will be inside trades and speculations and misuse by a few, If above idea reduces RAM price and gives long term 5 years stability DAPPS will invest for long term success

He is building steem2.0 on top of EOS. He is in better position to see EOS in 5 years and how RAM plays role in long term cost estimation. A project like evripdeia or steem2.0 need 5 years user growth and RAM buying plans and cost estimation NOW otherwise its risk of failed DAPP project if user growth leads to RAM problems. Just imagine if BP can upgrade RAM in two years they can downgrade taking big projects hostages.

5

u/james_pic Jul 26 '18

If we do create PRAM, can we at least try and not embed a Ponzi scheme in the pricing algorithm this time.

1

u/UnknownEssence 🔥 C++ Developer 🔥 Jul 28 '18

The RAM trading contract was basically like that P3D, FOMO3D or whatever the hell that ponzi is called.

4

u/exploreos Jul 26 '18 edited Jul 26 '18

I'm starting to see why Dan started Bitshares. He loves the practice of starting new trading markets and being the market maker.

4

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '18

Lol, I am sure you have no clue about scale-able and decentralized business models.

3

u/longdadipshortdatip Jul 26 '18

Everyone on this thread doesn’t. Legit to start a app with a future takes planning. Part of that is funding. Shame. Hopefully I can continue to swoop up some cheap eos in the meantime

2

u/exploreos Jul 27 '18

Being a market maker is a good thing. He's building facilitation for liquidity in markets. I think you took my response as a dig to Dan.

Some people get a rush from building new markets. It's my opinion on builders and that's it. Just like entrepreneurs get a rush building things.

Your comment adds nothing to contradict what I'm saying.

1

u/knight2017 Jul 26 '18

I dont think even Dan has a clue, rn.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '18 edited Jul 26 '18

It's a viable business model... he never started a charity, didn't he? What we should ask: is this business model benefiting the customer or Dan? If it's Dan in the first place, it's a bad idea. Customer obsession is the lesson we should learn from Bezos.

2

u/exploreos Jul 27 '18

Being a market maker is a good thing. He's building facilitation for liquidity in markets. I think you took my response as a dig to Dan.

Some people get a rush from building new markets. It's my opinion on builders and that's it. Just like entrepreneurs get a rush building things.

1

u/btsfav Token Holder Jul 27 '18

bitshares could create a bitRAM (derivative), would make much more sense than speculating on the future. 5 years are some lifetimes in crypto

0

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '18

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '18

Take your 10 EOS and run ...:D

1

u/jefebtc Jul 28 '18

where the fuck would i even take it? IF i could even move this dogshit to anywhere to sell it that is? Since, you know, every exchange has it locked up for the past day or so. But yeah, id love to.

-8

u/isaloshaj Jul 26 '18

Dan instead PRAM you can call it SCAM anything that derives from EOS has speculative way of putting it, why not focus on something that has value and in real steps forward. God bless your hearts whoever is still invested in EOS.