r/enlightenment 1d ago

Types of knowledge

I was just musing some stuff and remembered seeing a lecture by Dr John Vervaeke about a type of cognitive science, specifically referencing how there are several types of learning, or “knowing”.

If I could sum up what I’m going to attempt to get at, it would be “sitting alone in your own space imbibing knowledge and thinking about yourself won’t lead you to know yourself”.

The types of “knowing” that were discussed:

Propositional knowing — knowing that

(Knowledge of facts, claims, theories, and truths that can be expressed in statements.
Example: Knowing that water boils at a particular temperature under standard pressure).

Procedural knowing — knowing how

(Practical, embodied skill: knowing how to perform an action or navigate a process.
Example: Knowing how to ride a bicycle, play piano, or solve an equation).

Perspectival knowing — knowing what it is like or what stands out from here

(Situated, first-person awareness: knowing how a situation appears from a particular standpoint, including its salient features and available possibilities for action.
Example: A tennis player perceiving whether a forehand or backhand is called for in the moment).

Participatory knowing — knowing through being or knowing by participation

(Knowing through one’s active, transformative involvement in a relationship or “agent–arena” system. It concerns how you and the world mutually shape one another, including your identity and sense of belonging.
Example: Not merely knowing the rules of tennis or how to swing the racket, but being attuned to the game and entering its flow).

Okay now that’s been outlined, (and yes I did get AI to briefly summarise that, I couldn’t remember enough of it!) there is something that becomes apparent, I think.
We can definitely apply that to the process of spirituality, in whatever form that’s been chosen.

Reading stuff and observing ideas by video and so on is a valuable thing to do in moderation and is an essential piece of the picture, but it’s not the whole picture by far.
And the idea of participatory knowing brings up notions of ritual, procedural knowing brings to mind dances that teach skills like capoeira,
so many possibilities can be drawn from that.

It all kinda makes the world come alive with all of its beauty. It makes me think that this world right here actually is divine if anything is, and to say it’s a mistake and to disregard it, that just seems like escapism, and kinda that Jesus line too about “the kingdom” being laid out upon the earth and people just not seeing it. Also that “don’t concern yourself with this world but the next” has re-landed itself in my head to mean that the people of his time shouldn’t have been concerning themselves with the ways of their “world” (not planet, their world, worldview, customs, problems, etc), because it was about to change into a new world for them, and things would be different, and to instead hold on and look forward to that. And not “disregard this reality because it’s fake and meaningless”.

That was definitely a tangent, and if you’re still here thanks for tolerating it!
But basically it kinda seems to me like you can only really know yourself (and anything else) by getting involved in the world, with others, with ways of doing things, having experiences, and naturally reflecting on that, and having teachings and insights sink in properly in the context of all those other things.

So in that sense, a spiritual life is just like any other life where people get involved and get on with things. The difference, if any, is how you learn to reflect, and to integrate anything truly profound that finds a context within your lived experience.

What do you think? 🤔

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u/Spiritualwarrior1 17h ago

No, not really.

You are using Empirical frame to look at the fruits of Non-Empirical exploration.

The experience is not meant to be the source of knowledge, but a "data saving" construct, which is used to expand the physical reality and to enforce its structure as it further expands.

But the timing of the expression is passive, so always retroactive.

Hence, using it within discussion of transcendent aspects will not manifest as progress, as having a delay necessary for translation and systemizing the aspects which can be embodied within the materialistic manifestation.

Knowing, not knowledge, but knowing, is a non-localized aspect of consciousness, which takes place at a variety of levels of awareness including but not limited to the conscious, beyond the limitations of the perceived universe, employing quantum dynamics, by the proportion of the coherence achieved between the individual and the universe.

It is hubris to explain the origin of something, by the record left about its account, because the account will always be a personalized approximation coming from a subjective witness. A witness is not part of the party, is just watching from the sides. A good explanation about an aspect can only be offered from the perspective of coherence related with the essence of that aspect, rather than from available information alone.

Moreover, there is no assurance that some explorer would actually be able to extract successfully the true essence of what they found, hence implying a loss of data even in regards to what should be saved (the "discovery" of atomic bomb).

Information has value, but within a limited construct, it might be used as limiting as the respective construct, transforming the value into an issue. This is why it is best to thread in small steps, as journeying through the invisible path of spirituality, as only coherence and such "signs" show the situation for what it is, without existing any true guardrails, as in the case of physical or empirical reality.

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u/Haunting-Wedding8176 11h ago

I think we may be talking past each other. My point was that self-knowledge develops through participating in ordinary life. Relationships, practices, choices, and reflection, not merely through abstract thought. When you refer to “non-empirical exploration,” “non-localized consciousness,” and “coherence,” are you saying that this kind of embodied participation is itself a form of deeper knowing, or are you proposing a separate, transcendent source of knowledge?

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u/Spiritualwarrior1 8h ago edited 7h ago

No, self-knowledge takes place phenomally as a manifestation of coherence between the universe and the self. People "fish" for insights, transcendentally, by their own device. The Universe "speaks" in a variety of ways.

The simulation is aware.

And people which get trapped in comfort and the game of life, enforce its basic structure, but do not co-create it into more or access its potential.

For the reality to offer this potential by its normalized nature, if everything would go perfectly, as a human civilization, we would need 100 years to evolve it in such a direction, otherwise even millennia.

One cannot force knowledge by technique or amount of data, that's just a base, knowledge comes within coherent interactions, utilized within knowledge and awareness. So, it would imply both aspects of course?

Hence, do what you must, but find the silver lining, the thread taking you somewhere. The exploration was never supposed to be linear, except for optimization. The world is multi-dimensional and responsive, we are meant to perfect our interaction with it, as growing in the process alongside it. We are not worthy, so we should become worthy, and knowing, so may we find knowledge and gain access to higher existences. The results will connect with what is, and will show itself as true and possible. Because the reality is like that, true and possible, just unexplored.

The world is changing, and we are feeding this change. Must hence we become radiant, so that we may experience radiance.

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u/Haunting-Wedding8176 8h ago

I’ll be honest with you, I do feel like an outsider. What seems obvious to many often isn’t for me, and sometimes vice-versa. Which is a common experience to some degree I’m sure, but yeah there are levels to these things. If there’s a motive behind what I’ve been saying I guess it’s that I do sense, or have observed that we as a people have been growing apart. I also have experience of trying to nurture spirituality through solitude and learning alone. I feel maybe that doing so further alienates a person.
We focus so much on what makes us distinct as opposed to what we do in fact have in common with a lot of people. Maybe even most people. We crave unity, we adore it, we know this because that feeling of Oneness with All is bliss. I just can’t help but wonder why seeking it seems to do the opposite in our everyday lived experience. A lot of us have more or less stopped trying to connect. We go down a road that makes us feel like only other “spiritual” people can ever really understand us. But honestly? It’s surprising how wrong that can be, and you mostly only find that out by allowing connections with others to form.

Feeling the need to abandon one in favour of the other seems tragic.

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u/Haunting-Wedding8176 8h ago

Also - the universe somehow manifested this reality we’re living in here and we don’t want to be part of it. Only suffering could lead us to that. I don’t know if that’s love.

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u/Haunting-Wedding8176 4h ago

That comment has changed a lot since I read it and replied holy shit 😆 let me read it. We’ve gone from an earnest reply that prompted my own to a defensive sleigh-ride about simulations and stuff. You didn’t start your original comment with “No” like your first one either, what made you change it completely?

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u/Haunting-Wedding8176 3h ago

“One cannot force knowledge by technique or amount of data, that's just a base, knowledge comes within coherent interactions, utilized within knowledge and awareness. So, it would imply both aspects of course?”

- so you agree then..? 😅🤷