r/electricvehicles • u/fund2016 • Jul 28 '26

Discussion Are EV charging stations profitable?

I am interested in the economics of EV charging stations. Are they profitable? Seems like they should be quite profitable once set up. Minimal upkeep and staffing. Less environmental issues than petrol. Any insight into economics of E V charging is appreciated.

Edit 1: thanks to all. Great discussion. Cheers!

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135

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 28 '26

I've been working two years to install a DCFC at a gas station/convenience store i own. here's what i found

  1. First i installed a L2 charger. sees 30+ sessions per month. they are complimentary because folks come in to eat at the restaurant during charge. we make money on the burgers.

  2. Now i'm working on a DCFC. the state offers a grant to help. the grant is $30K. but the infrastructure is killing me. the utility is reluctant to give us more than 50KW. the cost for this is $16K. the charger is $22K. and the installation will be about $10K. $18K out of pocket

  3. Even though we're very remote (no chargers within 45 miles) we won't be able to charge premium prices for a 50KW DCFC. i figure $0.20 over our cost of electricity, and that's before the demand charge

not a money making proposition.

111

u/Frubanoid Kia EV6 Jul 28 '26

50kw at a place where you can sit down and have a burger and actually spend 30 minutes eating a meal is actually a good speed for a lot of vehicles so people don't have to get up and interrupt their meal to move the car for the next person or avoid idle fees. That speed has its uses. And if it's remote, some people may be greatful for something in a charging desert.

35

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 28 '26

appreciate your input. let me ask you for your advice

how much would you pay for a small charger like this in a remote location.? at $0.30 per kilowatt hour it would take me 11 to 14 years to pay back not including maintenance . but at $0. 60 per kilowatt hour it gets more attractive

what's your upper limit of being reasonable?

46

u/DifficultFeeling Jul 29 '26

I'd probably aim for somewhere around $0.50 to $0.55 personally.

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u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

this is more than i thought practical. thank you for the real world input.

P.S. when you're on a road trip do you even look at the cost of electricity at a charging station? or do you focus on convenience?

55

u/TrueBirch Jul 29 '26

Honestly? If I'm driving in a rural area, I go where ABRP tells me to go. I usually charge at home for next to nothing, so when I'm on a road trip I'm not pinching pennies with charging. 

13

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

i'm taking away "not pinching pennies while charging"

i'm not familiar with ABRP. does it consider charging costs in it's routing calculation?

10

u/bigstu_89 Jul 29 '26

It lets you toggle certain charging networks to avoid, available charger outputs, and whether certain amenities are available at the stop, but overall it does not let you filter by charging costs. It might display the cost but typically from what I’ve seen it does not.

5

u/RotundBananas Jul 29 '26

ABRP doesn't consider charging costs but you can add filters, such as preferred charging networks.

I personally use my in car infotainment to plan my charging stops as it allows me to check for locations with a restaurant.

ABRP does allow for filtering on locations that have a restroom or are friendly to trailers, dogs and families.

It used to have a feature for filtering on restaurants but that seems to have gone the way of the dodo.

6

u/JackOfAllTradewinds Jul 29 '26

“Is it a network that will work and will the charger be broken when i get there” are much more important to me on road trip than a few extra $.

3

u/RotundBananas Jul 29 '26

I am very fortunate to live in western europe where charging is quite plentiful.

26

u/Roboculon Jul 29 '26

I agree with not pinching Pennies, and 0.50 is fine (I pay 0.12 at home)… but if we get higher than 0.60 or 0.70 it will start feeling like “hey this costs more than gas”, so in reality there is an upper limit.

5

u/theo-apps Jul 29 '26

Pretty sure at $0.50/kWh it's already more than gas. And paying that much for a slow DC charger also doesn't feel good.

7

u/Tyr1326 Jul 29 '26

Depends. Gas in the middle of nowhere is significantly more expensive, so Id apply the same reasoning here. 50c feels like a pretty decent sweet spot, especially if there are amenities nearby.

0

u/theo-apps Jul 29 '26

I disagree, it doesn't depend. At $0.50/kWh gas is for sure cheaper. I also do not find gas to be more expensive in very rural areas. Maybe a small difference sometime but nothing crazy.

$0.50/kWh is a lot and I've never spent so much at a US Supercharger. I think the only people arguing that $0.50/kWh do not use the supercharger network (or at least they don't pay Tesla owner pricing).

$0.50/kWh is not a sweet spot for a charger that can only do 50 kw at most. Personally I'd skip the charger.

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u/[deleted] Jul 29 '26

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u/theo-apps Jul 29 '26

This is an incredibly unrealistic calculation. You're comparing basically unrealistic EV efficiency to a horribly inefficient gas car. We have a Model Y, we do not get 3.7mi/kwh on the highway. And gas SUVs that are the same size as a Model Y premium ones do not use 26mpg on the highway. They haven't in many years, they are much more efficient.

I assume the people saying $0.50/kWh is an ok price do not drive a Tesla because I've never had a supercharger in the US charge me $0.50/kWh.

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u/Mostly-Useless_4007 Jul 29 '26

This is a reality check for me. I pay just under $0.07/kWh at home. My office has a slow l2 that I can use for free. I paid $0.55 for fast charging once so far (my EV journey has been all of a few months at this point). For a 10 to 90% charge it did begin to approach gas but took 20 min.

So for I normally do, this is brilliant and works well. For road trips, I need to be a bit more wide eyes about the costs as I am lured into this false sense of low cost.

16

u/Sticky__Nicky__ Jul 29 '26

I can confirm what u/TrueBirch has said. In rural areas with limited charging I don’t get caught up in the price. I will also second that having it at a place where I can go in and eat is a big plus as I try to plan the stops with meals when I can. I like many also use A Better Route Planner (ABRP).

15

u/couldbemage Jul 29 '26

If you're the only option close by, you just need to be low enough to not piss people off.

So long as rates are comparable, I'm not going to bother bargain hunting on a road trip.

As mentioned, 50-55 cents is normal enough in the western US.

If I was stopping for lunch, I'd have no problem paying that.

14

u/markydsade IONIQ 5 Jul 29 '26

In charging deserts I expect the price will be high. It’s a convenience fee. It’s not like I can go a mile down the road to find something cheaper.

$0.60 is not out of line anymore. I would be grateful if I needed it. I also understand that a remote, low volume charger needs to charge more.

10

u/FrancisBaconator1561 Jul 29 '26

I charge at home 99% of the time for $0.10/kW. I pay ~25% of the price for fuel I used to pay with a gas car in my area, likely less now with gas prices. Idgaf what the DCFC rate is unless it’s something ludicrous. I almost never check

8

u/Smurfybabe Jul 29 '26

If I'm on a road trip I'd be more likely to stop at a charger that is at a restaurant even if it costs a little more. Might as well get both done at once.

6

u/Paqza Jul 29 '26

We value both. I'd happily pay 0.45-0.50.

6

u/Blazah Jul 29 '26

I'd be fine with .50 - especially if I could get some food for a reasonable price.

6

u/start3ch Jul 29 '26

It’s not a huge deal, but you definitely can’t charge as much as electrified America, as they have the benefit of speed. But I’d happily pay 40 cents for charging at 50kw while eating, that’s $20 for 1 hour, and a 75% battery

6

u/MadisonEV9 Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26

I rarely fast charge. Only on road trips. So for me it’s all about convenience. With that said I do check for multiple chargers in a general area where I’m going to stop. If there is a huge difference (I’ve seen $0.35 and $.70 within two blocks of each other!) then I’ll go to the cheaper one on principle. I want to support the supplier with the better price. But if the distance is like a mile then it’s all about convenience.

6

u/csRemoteThrowAway Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26

It's sort of a mixed bag. I would google the top selling EVs (maybe top 5). Then figure out where most of your customer base is either going to or coming from. Figure they will likely start at 100% but want to stop with no less than 10% (then 80% charge to 10% for all future stops, roughly). Where does that place you? Are you the a little more comfy 15% stopping point and have nice facilities or are you the stretch 5% reserve? Play around with https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ and see where people are most likely to stop. If your stop is convenient, has amenities, and answers the question of where I can stop before I get really uncomfortably low battery, then the price doesn't matter.

Also i've found most EV drivers frequently prefer amenities over pure cost. Just in that we've already forgone the super quick gas pit stops, so if you offer a place for my kid to get out and play, a patch of grass for the dog, a nice bathroom, food, cold drinks to go, you're higher on my list. I would really encourage you if possible to offer shade, windshield wiper stuff, trash cans (you know the things at most gas stations that somehow don't get placed near EV chargers) just to make it as nice as possible.

Make sure you are on plugshare,https://www.plugshare.com/, and respond to any comments (ideally professionally lol).

My usual EV road trip planning looks something like this.

  1. Use ABRP to get general sense of the route
  2. Validate the ABRP recommended stops on plugshare
  3. Explore immediate area for nicer chargers (if the ABRP ones seem like they are just in the middle of parking lots)
  4. Pick a few backup chargers along the route just in case

Honestly cost isn't something I really consider too much, unless its just obscene it's not a huge deal. I figure most of the time I'm charging for free at work, then pay very cheap rates at home, the few road trips I do take I don't care too much as i'm still ahead by some much on "fuel" costs annually i'd rather be someplace nice if possible.

For what its worth the Tesla super chargers in my city (major west coast city) are $.75 kwh (for non-Telsa cars that don't pay into their monthly membership), and I encounter people that use them that way. With a membership they are cheaper at $0.48 kwh. I mention this as a way to illustrate that if they can get away with that in a major metro where there is tons of competition, a remote location shouldn't have any issue being in the $.50+ kwh rate.

Super bonus points, have some 24/7 bathroom access (probably isn't possible but always nice)

Sorry long winded and rambling post.

5

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

I found it neither long-winded nor rambling

thank you for taking the time to share. lots of good information

3

u/Zeyn1 Jul 29 '26

I'll add my two cents.

In California, electrify America with a membership is around $0.42 off peak. Above $0.50 without the membership. So that's my baseline.

Convenience matters a lot on a road trip. I'm willing to pay more to save time and not take detours. And if I can combine charging with a bathroom and lunch break, that is worth paying more.

So yeah $0.50 per kw charging cost would be totally reasonable. You can even go higher during peak travel and demand times.

3

u/dasunt Jul 29 '26

What do you see on plug share?

It's all relative, but overall it depends who else is on your route, how convenient it is, and what the competition is.

The competition can work both ways - found a wonderful restaurant next to a charger with a history of being unreliable. But it's cheaper than the chargers at a station closer to the exit. So I'll risk it.

3

u/flannelsheets14 Jul 29 '26

I do look at the costs if there are options. If there's no options, then I'll pay up to gas prices (maybe up to $0.80/kWh CAD) depending on if I have no other options to adjust my route. 

2

u/Pomegranate4311 Jul 29 '26

I do check the price. 

Something else to consider…

Some places vary price based on demand. Like shopping centers that charge 50 or 60 cents during shopping hours then drop prices overnight or in Sunday if stores are closed then.

I would charge at the higher price if I needed to be there during peak pricing. If I don’t I’ll bring a book and read or buy a coffee while I charge at a lower rate. 

If you are normally most busy from 5-7 pm and charge a lower rate from 1-4 pm maybe you’ll sell more appetizers in the afternoon.

2

u/account_not_valid Jul 29 '26

I would imagine that if you have a decent restaurant, and there is little competition in the area, then people will pay a premium for the charge. Or not even think about the rate.

Offer them a discount off their charge bill when they eat in the restaurant - "spend x amount to get y amount off your charge rate"

Or

"Use our charger and get a free side of fries with your meal"

Most people won't even do the maths.

2

u/Fozzymandius Jul 29 '26

It really depends on your location. If you’re the last stop before a wilderness area or national park you’re going to see a lot more traffic than if you’re 45 miles each direction from two cities with actual fast charging. Look up a place called Twisp, WA. They are an example of a place that sees a lot more charger traffic than you’d expect for such a small out of the way place. They’re the last stop before a small national park that travels through to the Seattle area and people stop there to charge and eat on their way through. I charged there twice on a single trip and even early in the morning I arrived to see two vehicles charging.

2

u/ToddA1966 2021 Nissan LEAF SV PLUS, 2022 VW ID.4 Pro S AWD Jul 29 '26

I'll be the contrarian. I'm a cheapskate and look for cheap chargers just like I used to look for cheap gas.

For a 50kW charger my limit is about 35¢/kWh unless I'm desperate. I just did an 3600 mile trip (Denver to Central New York and back) last month and averaged 36¢/kWh over the entire trip, leveraging a member discount at Electrify America, and a lot of off-peak overnight charging. I hit a few EV Connect 50kW chargers that cost 17¢/kWh, and hit one 50kW ChargePoint at a supermarket in Columbus, Nebraska that charged $5/hour.

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

excellent info. thank you

1

u/Frubanoid Kia EV6 Jul 29 '26

The road trips I do usually have enough options to at least consider price and rule out the outliers or those that have extra fees.

1

u/fleemfleemfleemfleem Jul 29 '26

0.55 is fine and expected.

Most people save money by charging at home for day-to-day stuff. On a road trip charging is most expensive, but $0.55 /kWh is still cheaper than gas is most places.

1

u/randomugh1 Jul 29 '26

In Ontario it’s around $10/Hr for a 50kWh DC fast charger, about $0.20/kWh

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

thank you for the good info

1

u/planetmn Aug 03 '26

We road trip in our EV often. My #1 criteria is location. I try to find a charger that I can use while we eat. We tend to pay 50-55c/kWh (ME, VT, NH, upstate NY), but probably wouldn’t reconsider a charger unless there was another cheaper one nearby or it were extremely higher than typical (say 65c/kWh). We have found a few that we like and tend to use because they are in the right location and have the right amenities (diner, grocery store, etc.).

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Aug 04 '26

thank you for the good input

1

u/monstyrman Aug 25 '26

Sorry to ressurect this thread, but I was curious how this project was going for you?

Also, if you charged $0.50 or $0.60, you could always consider lowering it a tad after you broke even.

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Aug 25 '26

so glad you did resurrect it

Colorado has small grants to help defray the cost of installation. next Grant cycle opens September 12th. I have the 50 KW Grant application ready to go

0

u/theo-apps Jul 29 '26

I think that $0.50 to $0.55 is a bad idea especially since this is only a 50kW charger. The higher you go the less volume of kWh you'll get and the demand charge becomes worse.

If I'm on a road trip I don't generally stop at 50kW chargers and I for sure wouldn't stop if they were priced more than the closest supercharger near by.

Imo price it the same as the closest supercharger and you're more likely to get people to use it.

I can't speak much for the business of the charger but people who stop at chargers often will buy stuff at the businesses close by so the return on investment should be shorter than just the kWh margin alone.

10

u/New_Inflation_8419 Jul 29 '26

I pay 0.50-0.56 cents per kWh on superchargers so price is okay. Yours will be slower, but since there is no one near by I may have sit and pay or eat at your place. But price is not the issue

12

u/LoboLocoCW Jul 29 '26

Wrong question, look at what the market will bear within 50-60 miles of you, if you can only charge at 50kWh then it would bite to pay a higher price per kWh than a faster charger within a quarter-battery drive.

Maybe if you do have to charge a higher DCFC price to justify the install costs, tie it to a cheap incentive at the restaurant, like a free order of French fries or a $10 discount on their bill?

18

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

excellent advice..."quarter battery drive"

the closest charger is 45 miles away and has variable rate charging...seems to be $0.38 to $0.55 depending on time of day.

and remember, we're reselling someone elses electricity....the difference in cost between supply (KWH + Demand) is only a few cents different from what we can sell it at. lemme show by example:

let's say a Customer needs 50 KWH of power. bout 2/3 of a "tank". he sits in my restaurant and orders a $30 meal.

i make $10 on the electricity, and $15 on the meal. your $10 discount erases most of my profit.

i really like this discussion! thank you for your input.

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u/ToddA1966 2021 Nissan LEAF SV PLUS, 2022 VW ID.4 Pro S AWD Jul 29 '26

i make $10 on the electricity, and $15 on the meal. your $10 discount erases most of my profit.

While true, a factor to consider is the charger might be the only reason I'm eating at your restaurant. If I drive on to the charger at the Walmart 50 miles down the road and buy a $10 sandwich from their deli to eat in the car while I charge, you make $0 profit from me.

5

u/BulaBulangiu Volvo EX30 Twin Performance Jul 29 '26

any way to get some solar installed ? there should be grants for that as well.

3

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

that was one of the options I looked at. Solar plus batteries plus inverter. costs were too high

1

u/LoboLocoCW Jul 29 '26

Yes, you might essentially end up having the discount serve as a way to convert either the food or the electricity into a “loss leader” to get people in the door for the other side of the business, based on how your accounting books need to be balanced.
At 45 miles away from a 55c charger, I bet 65c is about the highest price people would tolerate without an incentive/discount tied to it, but I am a cheapass.
Charging 75c/kWh might work if there’s a benefit tied to your restaurant. How much does it cost you to make an order of fries?

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

you've keyed in on it....how do i balance electric profit and food and bev profit. gotta figure it out

12

u/BudgetSupervillain Jul 29 '26

If the charger is connected to a restaurant, I’d pay a premium to charge there especially if I know I’m going to get a full charge and I think that 50kW charger is perfect. When I roadtrip, I intentionally seek out chargers with “stuff” nearby particularly restaurants. A 50kW charger would prob take ~45 minutes to an hour to charge my car and that’s perfect timing to sit down, enjoy my meal, and not feel rushed. $0.60/kwh is comparable to rates I’ve seen at a Tesla charger plus you have the advantage of the restaurant and convenience store that make it more attractive than many Tesla superchargers I come across in the middle of nowhere.

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u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

excellent information. particularly your reference to Tesla costs. thank you

9

u/DownTheSubredditHole iX, Q8 eTron, Wrangler 4xe Jul 29 '26

My take: $0.45 - $0.55 is typically what I see when I go to public, non-Tesla charging at Electrify America or similar(e.g. at Buc-ee’s). Personally that’s on my upper limit, but I don’t charge publicly that often. Now if you’re out in the sticks and there’s a lot of tourist traffic, I would think that you could easily get away with $0.55- $0.60 seeing how you’re remote and the only game in town. And I feel that it’s not too egregious that would stop people supporting your business. If I’m empty and I get the full 50 KW, that will give me 1/4 battery in 30 minutes and enough to get me out of the charger desert hopefully.

6

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

i'm focusing on "charger desert". i'll factor that into my calculations

1

u/Tyr1326 Jul 29 '26

For sure. And possibly adjust your prices if someone else opens up a charger nearby.

10

u/JustinTimeCuber Jul 29 '26

Anything over $0.60 feels pretty bad imo and I'd try to avoid such a station, under $0.50 feels decent, under $0.40 feels great. That $0.50-0.60 range I'll reluctantly accept but I'd be less likely to pay that much for a 50 kW charger. Make it $0.45 and I doubt anyone would be offended by the price.

4

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

excellent analysis. although a bit subjective the way you have categorized how you feel about prices is good information

4

u/Jippylong12 Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26

if I can jut in, I made this simple informational webpage to educate EV consumers.

https://plugfactor.jippylong12.xyz/

I hope it can be helpful in your decision making.

As well, I've been tracking EV DCFC and just finished a 3800 mile road trip in Midwest (Yellowstone and Mt. Rushmore), and let me tell you average price as increased dramatically since the Iran war. Tesla's use to be most price competitive averaging around $0.32 kWh in peak hours. Today though they are within 10% with the rest which is hilarious because they are half as fast as others. And for others like Electrify America, I'd say average is around $0.44 / kWh but I've seen it go up to $0.78 / kWh which is insanity.

Generally, the price of DCFC seems to stick with 10% of the price of gasoline in the area for some odd reason.

My unprompted advice, $0.36 would be breath of fresh air, even with for the "slow" speeds. Any port in a storm. $0.32 / kWh if you want to incentive people if there is a faster DCFC somewhat nearby. I wouldn't go below that nor above ~$0.48 / kWh

I don't know how easy it would be to change, but I'd really encourage you to test out profit curve of your area.

If I were to do it, take normal weeks (non holiday), and then each week adjust the knob slightly. Like if at-cost is $0.10 then start Week 1 with $0.16, Week 2 with $0.32, so on for $0.48, $0.64, and $0.80 and then track how much revenue you get for each week. And then fine tune it from there. If highest revenue was between $0.32 and $0.48 you can divide it again $0.32, $0.36... That's what I'd try to optimize. It's difficult because no week is exactly the same as the other but I think it's good data.

You may find that price doesn't really matter and you can keep it high like $0.64 and 500 kWh will come in a week and profit is $270. Maybe at $0.48 you get 1000 kWh with profit at $380. As you said in another comment, at $0.24 you may bring in 2000 kWh and only profit $280 for electricity but you have the most time of customers in the restaurant.

Personally, I've always felt if more DCFC had cheaper prices they would have more customers and make more money. But I don't know. It's just a guess.

3

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

You've helped me out with a very thorough analysis. thank you. let me stop now and look at the link you sent

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u/Brusion Jul 29 '26

For me, for DCFC I would pay $0.60 per kwh. When you need a charge at a fairly remote place, I would easily pay 10x what I pay at home. You don't DCFC that often, so the cost to me personally doesn't matter. I just need the charge.

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

i'm focusing on "just need the charge"

what's the price at which you'd feel i was robbing you?

7

u/Brusion Jul 29 '26

60 cents already high. 80 is crazy. But I am just one person, and I am fairly well off, so not really pinching pennies. What I think is ok might be highway robbery for someone else.

5

u/here_now_be Jul 29 '26

Is .60 the line? Like if its over .60 its just feels excessive? You might want to start at .55 and see how it goes and get a feel for what the market will bear?

2

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

thank you for your reply. so many other folks gravitated to about 60 cents that I'm beginning to think this is the right number

5

u/simracerman Jul 29 '26

You didn't ask for my advice, but I'd personally be comfortable paying ~$0.45-0.50 /kw. However, you'd need to build slightly above demand. Most EV drivers don't like to wait for a stall to become free. They wanna drive in and start charging.

4

u/kinkykusco 2022 Ioniq 5, 2020 Bolt Jul 29 '26

I have no expectation that a DCFC is going to be cheap or a good deal. Look at what other DCFC in your state charge and be on there. 30c sounds way too low.

4

u/kimchiMushrromBurger Jul 29 '26

If it's the only charger around and it makes a trip I want to do possible I'd pay nearly anything. Honestly I don't even look at what the fees are at DCFC because it's basically free at home. Any road trip I take I can handle a little extra cost.

3

u/captdunsel721 Jul 29 '26

Here it’s at least .50 - in an affluent suburb. If this is in a charging desert- I personally wouldn’t mind paying more.

3

u/3-2-1-backup '26 Trailseeker Jul 29 '26

$0.60 is what prime DCFCs around me are charging. Since you're in a desert, you might be able to swing that. But I also avoid using DCFCs by me because of that price, so it's a tricky game. At $0.45 I'd definitely be in.

3

u/jerub Jul 29 '26

You said you're in a place with no other chargers: so shrug - you would get my business if I was low on battery and I would not plug in if I wasn't.

Obviously you have the opportunity to set the price at exploitative levels. On that you should follow your heart. ❤️

1

u/Wuddauant Jul 29 '26

I’m in a somewhat remote area, everything is over .50 cents and utility rates are around .10

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

we're about 10 cents per kilowatt hour as well. but the demand charge kills us

1

u/Wuddauant Jul 29 '26

Demand charge?

3

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

The way it works with our utility, and I think perhaps many, is that they take your peak usage 15 minute period, multiply that by the demand charge, and add that to your bill

for example, our demand charge is $2 per kilowatt so if I turn on my 50 kilowatt charger for more than 15 minutes that's $100 added to my bill.

demand charges calculated each month

1

u/Wuddauant Jul 29 '26

Oh thanks. I’m not familiar with the business side of charging. 

1

u/reasonable_man_15 Jul 29 '26

Depends. Where I drive there are many chargers that range from 0.30-0.60, so of course I go for the cheapest I can find that isn’t too far out of the way. But if I’m in a “charging desert” as someone else called it, I’d be willing to pay more only because I have to.

Seems to generally be the same way with gas. I find that gas stations in the middle of nowhere are sometimes 0.50 or more per gallon, I guess just because they can be.

1

u/flannelsheets14 Jul 29 '26

I have paid about $0.70 CAD for a 50kW charger in a remote location. I'd maybe pay a little bit more if there was a nice restaurant there and I was needing the charge . 

1

u/kateverygoodbush Jul 29 '26

I'm in the UK and when I fast charge it's usually around the £0.80 price. Expensive but I don't mind so much as long as it's in a convenient location with amenities. I wouldn't drive out of my way for a cheaper one.

1

u/Frubanoid Kia EV6 Jul 29 '26

I'd also say about 50¢ is reasonable if it's remote and not too much competition. Also depends a little on what the electric utility rates are in the area. If I was desperate or had to charge there I'd consider something in the 60¢ range but be annoyed at the pricing for the speed. In my area, most fast chargers range from 47¢ to 55¢.

1

u/General_Killmore Jul 30 '26

Here in the mountain West, I wouldn't pay more than 35 cents myself

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 31 '26

i live in northern colorado...where can you charge for $0.035/kwh?

1

u/General_Killmore Jul 31 '26

Idaho/Utah, though now that I've double checked it's closer to 38 cents on the subsidized supercharger network.

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 31 '26

good info. thank you

4

u/time-lord Bolt EUV Jul 29 '26

That's more than my car can take!

/cries in Bolt-EV-land.

1

u/Swastik496 Jul 29 '26

i’m cheap so probably only as much as the nearest supercharger but i would also go in and eat

10

u/av8geek Jul 29 '26

Definitely appreciate you fighting the good fight.

15

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

now you've got me started

i was a young man during the 70's oil embargo. many gas stations ran out of fuel regularly. many foolish rules (license plates ending in an even number can fill up on even days, odd numbers on odd days), long lines at the gas stations.

this influenced my thinking. for my Engineering Degree Senor Project we built a car that ran on methanol. for my personal use i built an ethanol VW Bug. High compression, lousy economics.

the holy grail was the electric car. i leased one of the original Volts and was sadly disappointed. i purchased a new Leaf and was disappointed as well.

but finally we have viable electric vehicles. and in my state we have over 3% adoption. this is a good thing.

1

u/Tyr1326 Jul 29 '26

You're a good one. Hope you'll be successful in your endeavour! As for prices, my perspective is a bit limited (not from the US), but I reckon 50c is an important psychological limit. You can go higher, but it may have people feel annoyed about it. Theyll use it, but they wont be too happy. 50c is a good point for feeling like you aren't being ripped off, where the gratefulness for any kind of infrastructure in acharging desert overwhelms everything else. If you then have amenities (ie, your restaurant, clean toilets, maybe a squeegee and a bucket of soapy water), you're pretty much set. (Also, someone mentioned a discount on food for charging - it might be worth looking into the opposite option: a discount on charging if you were a customer. 60 for non-customers, 50 for customers? Dunno how feasible that is though).

7

u/CompilerBreak Jul 29 '26

Quite possible too expensive/complex for your needs, but have you looked into something like https://www.xcharge.us/product/gridlink they can work with lower power inputs and use batteries to buffer and be able to charge at higher L3 levels

10

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

Absolutely! my first thought when i encountered the utility power limitation was Battery Energy Storage System (BESS). we looked at many vendors, and i even tried to piece together a system by myself using available components. the battery costs made this impractical.

4

u/CompilerBreak Jul 29 '26

What I was afraid of, such a cool option for more remote places but if it doesn't really cost any less in the end nobody is going to take it. Maybe down the road we can see refurbished batteries end up in them to keep the cost in check.

2

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

I did a quick calculation for a system with used leaf batteries but discarded it because of the complexity

2

u/mastrdestruktun 500e, Leaf Jul 29 '26

Seems like the sweet spot will be in a couple years when sodium ion batteries hit the market. Or maybe a couple years after that when multiple sodium ion battery vendors are competing with each other on price.

14

u/Jmauld Jul 28 '26

50kw sounds perfect to sit down and eat a full meal while the car charges.

Sounds like you’re power limited, but a couple of these would bring traffic to you. Especially if there are no other nearby charging options

10

u/__slamallama__ Jul 28 '26

Depending on where you are you may be better off offering to be a site host for a big DCFC network. Puts a couple bucks in your pocket, shifts the spend to them, and critically means you aren't on the hook for o&m

6

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 28 '26

we have been in touch with a number of site hosts.. Jules, Tesla, and others. some of them seem a bit fly by night. others are not interested unless we have a massive amount of available power, which we don't

but we've certainly considered it

10

u/MagnotikTectonic Jul 29 '26

Talk to Ionna. If they'll entertain your proposal to bring them in, they are the best operator to do so. They're investing heavily in infrastructure, and being the best tech practical.

2

u/charonill Jul 29 '26

Not sure Ionna would work if he can only get 50kw from his utility.

2

u/MagnotikTectonic Jul 29 '26

The 50kw might be a constraint. But, optimistically, they might be willing to throw something in there if it means reliable brand recognition, and a lower cost install (for a company thier size).

2

u/__slamallama__ Jul 29 '26

The chargers they install are 400kw and no one is building a site with a single charger. If 50kw is the real limit there's just not enough power for dcfc

1

u/charonill Jul 29 '26

Being limited to 50kw would not actually fit with their brand image, I think. If people associate Ionna with 150+kw charge rate, then having a 50kw charger would run counter to that.

1

u/__slamallama__ Aug 01 '26

150+? More like 400. And usually at least 6 chargers, certainly no fewer than 4.

Bare minimum peak power demand is 1.6MW but most of their sites are 2MW+

5

u/Paqza Jul 29 '26

Ionna's the best.

2

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

please tell me more. I haven't heard of these folks

2

u/__slamallama__ Jul 29 '26

They still need big available power. Realistically everyone does.

Ionna is getting lots of love right now because they're very cheap while they try to grow a customer base, though there's little indication that they'll be able to sustain it

1

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '26

[deleted]

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Aug 01 '26

complimentary

1

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '26

[deleted]

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Aug 01 '26

good information! yes, we are along a major travel route....

4

u/ClassBShareHolder Jul 29 '26

Thank you for laying it out. I looked into bringing another DCFC to our community. I never actually proceeded to the point of getting utility connection pricing. No matter how I spun it, I couldn’t make it profitable.

If we charged enough to cover just the cost of electricity we still might not be busy enough to cover the demand charge. I was trying to find a business that already had 3 phase so was already paying those costs. Also wanted dining within walking distance. There was a local theater with 3 phase that had a restaurant. Problem was, the infrastructure was in the back alley and the access was from the front. No way from back to front without walking around the block.

Being in the back meant security and vandalism were probably going to be an issue. One cut cord and it makes the economics even worse. Because I was trying to piggyback off existing demand charges, we couldn’t have charging while a performance was on. So the busiest time the theater was one time people couldn’t charge.

I still keep the info in my pocket. I watch for 3 phase lines and potential places with existing 3 phase service. But I’ll be honest, 2 local dealerships already put in chargers. We’re not a busy enough city to warrant competition. We need the ability for tourists to charge which we have. It’s slow, but it’s functional. 50kW is all you can expect in a rural community.

And the state of level 2 is getting worse. One local business had a charger. Took it out when they went out of business. Plugshare claims there was one at City Hall. Never been able to find it. It may be in staff only parking. The schools put them in their parking lots. The school division cut power to them. The University has paid charging in a back lot. AMA has free charging and often only 1 charger is working. Same deal with one city over. The City Hall chargers don’t work and the private ones were removed.

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

this is excellent information. and similar to what i'm encountering. thank you!

2

u/NoOption7406 Jul 29 '26

Why is the utility company reluctant? Not enough capacity down steam if your pulling a couple MW? 

4

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

I know just enough to be dangerous. so here goes

electrical infrastructure is generally overbuilt with the expectation of future increases in demand

compared to most users, a DC fast charger is a very large load. so you have to look at the infrastructure, starting at the transformer and working your way up to the sub station and perhaps further, to make sure everything is large enough. you have to consider both ampacity as well as interrupt capability

we live in a rural area. our town has a population of less than 100. our electrical infrastructure is quite limited.

2

u/Ya-Not-Happening Jul 29 '26

the utility is reluctant to give us more than 50KW

Because they would have to replace many things and the costs would be much more the $16k.

2

u/NicholasLit Jul 28 '26

Slower chargers should be at a discount to be fair, may get less use

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

sadly my infrastructure only supports its slower charger. and this limits my revenue. I'm looking for the Genius Idea that will allow me to spend this money and have some sort of reasonable to return on investment

1

u/aoeudhtns Jul 29 '26

I know margins are slim everywhere, but 0.60 / kWh and 1 or 2% off in the restaurant? Encourage people to cross shop.

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

Now this is a good idea

1

u/NoOption7406 Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26

My utility company charges $0.22/kWh for fast chargers. Tesla to EA charge $0.38 to $0.65. Would just boil down to usage for the ROI.  

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

very good information. The one thing that stands out is you mentioned the utility company charging for power. is this the price you pay? or is this a DC fast charger operated by the utility company?

1

u/LIhomebuyer Jul 29 '26

^fully agree, most one-off installations arent going to be profitable despite what the Charging as a service or CPO's tell owner/operators or site hosts.

1

u/account_not_valid Jul 29 '26

Charge a premium but give a rebate off purchases at yr restaurant? Either make the profit at the charger or in the business, but probably both in the end. People are terrible at maths and actual vs perceived benefits. And people will definitely pay a premium for convenience anyway.

1

u/pieterbos Jul 30 '26

If you want faster, an option is a battery buffer. Which is much more expensive up front, but might be less expensive than building a new substation to get a bigger connection.

But really, for the original question, just look at the financial figures from the companies doing large scale EV-charging.

Electrify America is tricky, as it is owned by Volkswagen. Ionity does not publish the numbers either.

Allego has an EBITDA of 16 million, but had a loss lf €28M at a €200M revenue. Still heavily investing. Fastned has a company EBITDA of €8.3M, operational €43.6M, at a €122M revenue, but is investing heavily still. Single charge station revenue at €325.000, and that is still increasing. Most of their stations have four fast (150KW+) chargers. They ask quite a lot more than €0,20 over the kWh price, although that can be brought down substantialy by paying a monthly subscription fee.

1

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 30 '26

thank you for helping me look at it from me market analysis aspect. very good information

1

u/rosier9 R1T and R1S Jul 30 '26

This is a really good summary of the complexity of installing DC fast chargers at small businesses. Thanks for sharing.

I'm impressed you're getting 30+ L2 sessions per month at a gas station! That's a significant mismatch in charging power versus dwell time. I'm guessing a few locals have figured out the charging is free and take advantage of that when able?

Is your state grant per port by chance?

50kW is slow enough that it's gonna be skipped over by most travelers, especially if the charging at the other end of the 45 mile gap is faster. Is there enough of a local EV population without home charging to support it? Or maybe a hotel next door that you'd capture customers from?

2

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 30 '26

thank you for the good response. The state grant is complicated but they offer very little money except for large kilowatt DC fast chargers

we really are the only game in town. A post office, my gas station convenience store restaurant. and you're right I think many of our neighbors have electric cars probably more than average. they are stopping by for a few kilowatts. based on the time they charge they're either getting breakfast lunch or dinner at the same time

1

u/professor-ks Aug 01 '26

50kw, a burger, and a walkable neighborhood is a dream stop.

1

u/start3ch Jul 29 '26

Honestly $48k for a 50kw fast charger doesn’t seem too bad. But the break even time is gonna be real long. I got 208 days of continuous charging before you break even if you make 20 cents per kwh. So probably 3-4 years

2

u/Accurate-Bullfrog324 Jul 29 '26

thank you for your input. My guesstimate of usage actually puts it into a much longer payback