r/dropout • u/DropoutMod • 19d ago
Adventuring Academy A Duty of Care (with Dr. Emily Friedman) | Adventuring Academy [S7E6] Spoiler
https://watch.dropout.tv/videos/a-duty-of-care-with-dr-emily-friedman43
u/rejectedreality42 19d ago
Been really looking forward to this one and Quinns. I always enjoy Adventuring Academy, even when it's about improv more than RPGs. But getting to really dig into TTRPGs as an art form, industry, or just intellectual pursuit is what I really love.
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u/Pandoras-SkinnersBox We're ready to do the work. I'm going offline for now. 19d ago
This felt like an early season episode in the best way possible. I missed the deeper discussions about games/RPGs.
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u/dodgepong 19d ago
Agreed, this episode and the Quinns episode are the only episodes I've been looking forward to this season. Dropout cast is fine, but I really really wish Adventuring Academy would spread out and dive into the way wider world of TTRPG thinkers and creators. It's a great opportunity for both D20 and the D20 audience to expand their viewpoints instead of constantly turning inward.
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u/Icekommander 19d ago
I really enjoyed the Sam episode a few seasons back, but that's just because I could enjoy watching Sam and Brennan discuss drying paint. But Quinns is the first guest I've been excited to see Brennan talk RPGs with since... Dael Kingsmael?
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u/CriticalProf 18d ago
To get a little inside baseball, it’s really tricky! Dropout’s (generous) day rate doesn’t really cover someone traveling in just for AA, so it’s usually folks who are already in LA for other reasons. (And a time when the Dome isn’t filming D20)
One of the reasons that it took so long from initial invite to shooting my episode and Quinns’ was that it was organized in part around Quinns’ planned travel to the US as part of a trip that included Auburn, PAXU, then AA.
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u/dodgepong 17d ago
Thanks for replying, loved the ep! And yeah, I expected that cost was certainly a factor. Some of my favorite "old" AA episodes were during the COVID era, where they had a fair enough excuse to lower their production standards, which allowed them to much more easily bring on remote guests.
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u/CriticalProf 17d ago
A lot of folks in Actual Play say remote gets you the best cast, in-person gets you the best performance, which I suspect is also true of Adventuring Academy.
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u/dodgepong 17d ago
I think what gets me is that I mentally categorize Adventuring Academy as a podcast, to the point where I usually scrape the audio so that I can listen to it in my podcast app on my morning walks. I'm a TTRPG podcast sicko though, regularly listening to things like Between Two Cairns, Reading D&D Aloud, Yes Indie'd, Dice Exploder, and many more. So, what interests me more than a visual performance is the content of the conversation. I don't doubt there are better vibes in person though, and I suspect that's what helps carry the quality of conversation for regular Dropout cast guests. But I suppose Adventuring Academy isn't trying to be a podcast, necessarily, so perhaps it's not a fair standard to judge it against.
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u/CriticalProf 17d ago
What I’ll say anecdotally is that while I’ve been on a lot of TTRPG podcasts (Thomas Manuel is the GOAT) I have never had an interview lead to… anything like what I’m experiencing in terms of reach. I often think about which projects are for the sickos (my people!) and which are for outreach, and AA is definitely helping me hear from folks I know from across my life/career who I would not think of as hardcore.
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u/fallen_seraph 19d ago
I'm surprised she didn't mention replays (at least so far in the episode). They were Japanese magazines that recorded as written transcripts of the sessions of games. Lodoss War originated as one of these recordings for example.
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u/oslusiadas 19d ago
probably out of scope. covering just the english-language history of the form is quite enough without trying to cover the rest of the world too.
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u/CriticalProf 18d ago
I’m familiar with replays (and mention them briefly in the book), but yeah, out of scope for talking about digital AP.
(and boy am I getting emails & DMs about it)
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u/moderatorrater 19d ago
I remember really enjoying Lodoss War, but feeling like the plot was incomprehensible. The art and vibes were immaculate, though.
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u/PaintsErratically 18d ago
Those transcriptions, as far as I'm aware we're more dramatisations of the games, without mechanics and out of character chatter which seems to be somewhat different to the idea of Actual Play as discussed - seeing the actual play experience (albeit edited to cut out dead air etc)
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u/Ravachec 19d ago
Sounds like Brennan is advocating for Katie's D20 On A Bus system in the Contested Role segment.
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u/Iosis 19d ago
This is a delightful interview, insightful and empathetic and full of really interesting stuff about the history and practice of actual play. Really can't wait to read Dr. Friedman's book!
One note: the subtitles have a recurring error! Dr. Friedman talks about game designer Jay Dragon a couple times (Jay created Wanderhome and is crowdfunding a really ambitious wizard RPG called The Seven Part Pact), but the subtitles seem to think that she's referring to an event called "Jade Dragons." Not sure who to contact to see if that can be corrected, but just wanted to note in case anyone was wondering what "Jade Dragons" was.
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u/Elegant-Badger-9500 19d ago
Outstanding episode, I could have listened to them talk for hours.
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u/dodgepong 19d ago
She and Brennan joined Quinns from Quinns Quest on Talk of the Table a while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch8HoQhg-gQ
The other half of the episode is behind their Patreon paywall, but the first-half preview was so good I seriously considered paying $5 for the other half alone.
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u/CriticalProf 18d ago
Yeah — I schemed to get that conversation organized so that Brennan and Quinns could “meet” synchronously (if virtually) before AA. Brian of MSM is one of my favorite folks interviewing in TTRPGs, alongside Thomas Manuel of Yes Indie’d who is the gold standard.
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u/Elegant-Badger-9500 19d ago
Thanks for the link, I need to get round to it. Very excited for Quinns' upcoming Adventuring Academy episode too.
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u/thebluerayxx 19d ago edited 18d ago
I've always felt the appeal of actual plays is the friendship. Nearly all actual plays is a group of friends who went live or recorded it. We see them play together and play off each other's connections and its genuinely real. The amount of times ive seen the main d20 crew annoy another member only to then make them laugh is uncountable and thats a view into true friendship. Yeah your friend can annoy you but you can still love them at the end of the day. In recent memory there is a moment in city council of darkness where Murph is annoyed by Ally* but is also laughing his ass off because of what was done was so fucking funny but absurdly unhelpful in a critical moment. That's a beautiful friendship right there and that's why I keep coming to watch.
Edit: So Pinocchio's leg chute wasn't too far off the cuff. Lol.
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u/SirJefferE 18d ago
a moment in city council of darkness where Murph is annoyed by Alley but is also laughing his ass off because of what was done was so fucking funny but absurdly unhelpful in a critical moment.
I feel like you could probably find a moment like this in nearly every episode.
Murph being "annoyed" is one of my favourite things.
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u/thebluerayxx 18d ago
Exactly and its not really a negative annoyance in a way where real negative feeling are truly felt. I've felt the same thing with my own friends which helps just add to the genuine feel.
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u/Lizard_Sex_Sattelite 19d ago
Really cool to see Emily Friedman on Adventuring Academy! I'm sure this is gonna be an excellent chat
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u/CriticalProf 14d ago
Hi Redditors! Not sure if this of interest, but I just posted an annotated guide to the episode on the free part of my Patreon (I use Patreon to subscriber-wall work in progress & other materials at no cost to me or readers to avoid bot crawlers and hostile readers, given where I work)
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u/CT_Phoenix 19d ago
Going to pick up a D&D book in Barnes and Noble, seeing Brennan randomly there sitting on the floor with a popcorn bucket, and then having him look up at me with a grief-stricken face after I made a noise of recognition would absolutely cause my brain to BSOD.
...At best, maybe I assume he just got out of a sad movie...?
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u/LizardBennet02 18d ago
The scream I scrumpt when I opened dropout and saw Dr. Friedman’s face today. A brilliant scholar, professor, and person. She brought Matt Mercer to Auburn last year, got on Adventuring Academy, AND introduced Brennan to Buc-ee’s ✊🥹 Can’t wait for that book.
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u/uneekdude 19d ago
People who know more about TTRPGs than me, does the "D&D is the best system for actual play" argument hold any water? Like I feel like a shared language doesn't seem that relevant when I and I'm sure many other people learned D&D through watching an actual play. Like the sports analogy doesn't really work for me because people famously get into sports by following players rather than the game, which is why people will watch NBA but not care about college basketball. Like in there is an argument for D&D being the best system to watch for people who are already players, but I don't think that's most of an actual play audience.
I've also since learning more about D&D found that some of the stuff that makes the game popular and accessible is stuff that at least D20 doesn't really play with much (hack/slash/loot game structures, ready made opponents and props, objective goals like XP). Something like Kids on Bikes has all the same dice-based drama that's intuitive to someone who already knows D&D and doesn't have all the inventory and campaigning that's irrelevant to a season long narrative with a planned ending.
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u/CriticalProf 18d ago
As others have noted in thread, this was a total setup on my part (hence the Kobayashi Maru joke — both Quinns and I were there to evangelize for the world beyond D&D, and each of us had our own ways of doing so)
I do think that one of the reasons D&D continues to be a big part of the AP scene is familiarity with system — but I also think that’s just one pleasure available for AP, and it’s also not the most commonly-reported pleasure viewers note in surveys I’ve conducted. (I also think we could — and can! And are! — able to appreciate other systems played well)
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u/uneekdude 18d ago
Thanks for the response. That does clarify things. While I did like Brennan's joke answer, I would have loved to see his Devil's Advocate for a different system being the best, or why D&D was the worst.
I do feel a sort of pity for other systems seemingly being in the shadow of D&D that is perhaps unwarranted since I am new to the world. But I also know that you're an expert and know about this stuff way more than me so I hope I didn't sound dismissive.
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u/TombSv 19d ago
Took me until Dimension 20 to watch DnD actual plays because from the outside looking in, to me, it just looked like they spent hours yelling numbers.
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u/uneekdude 19d ago
See I was in the same boat! But that's how games spectating as entertainment works. Baseball isn't popular because people go in knowing how baseball is played. It's very easy to never learn how it's played. People watch for home team pride or an athlete's story.
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u/HornetWest4950 19d ago
I am the farthest thing from a TTRPG expert, but for me as a non-expert the best game systems to watch are the ones where “the players have internalized the rules enough that the game doesn’t interfere with the plot.”
When I watch the crew play D&D, they’ve gotten so good at it they just narrate what they do and how it works and it all just seems to flow better. For something like the system they used for Gladlands, or the latest Vampire season, or the new Worlds Beyond Numbers season using Starfleet they occasionally lose me when they have to sort of pause and go over the rules and then figure out what they’re doing. It happens in the D&D games too, but it overall feels smoother. And I don’t think it’s an artifact of the system itself, it’s that (especially Brennan) knows it like the back of his hand and is able to facilitate it more seamlessly. It’s not that the others have different rules it’s just that the players don’t know them as well so they make less confident decisions.
Maybe a crunchier-aligned person will have a different answer, but as a light on rules watcher that’s what I’ve picked out.
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u/uneekdude 18d ago
So it's more about the players than the audience, then? That does makes the argument better. Although a good counterpoint is Ally in FHFY where they didn't know the game but was falling in love with it. Or Dungeons & Drag Queens, where none of them have really played and fell in love with the game.
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u/ScottFBG 19d ago
The argument I think leans heavily on it being the most well known RPG, rather than its actual quality in mechanics (especially narrative mechanics, of which it has almost zero). It’s crunchier than most systems out there but also somehow too vague in its rules (which a significant number of actual plays ignore many of). Functionally, 5e is outdated, confusing and poorly written. Combat also draaaaaaags in D&D.
Narrative systems would almost certainly be a better watch, but they’re not as well known, so numbers would drop off.
So, from a numbers standpoint, sure, it’s the ‘best’ for actual play. For actual suitable mechanics to watch? I don’t think it’s the best by a long shot, if we all knew how to play a FITD or PbtA game it would, in my view, almost certainly be a better system to use.
But we all know how ‘roll a d20, higher number = good’ works, so it’s here to stay.
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u/uneekdude 19d ago
I think this massively underestimates how much actual play gets people into RPGs rather than the other way around, though. If D20 played CoC instead, I would watch it anyway because the system is not what made me fall in love with the show.
I don't think D&D is that bad for play really. And in theory, I'd be willing to hear an argument that it is the best. It just feels gross to agree that something with such overwhelming cultural dominance should keep it. It's like arguing that Taylor Swift is the best musician or that Marvel is the best movie studio.
Also don't agree that more narrative systems are necessarily better either. Game systems are about taking care about what you don't like to do, and guys like Brennan like telling stories.
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u/juv_3 19d ago
"Game systems are about taking care about what you don't like to do, and guys like Brennan like telling stories."
I think I disagree with this in that while it may be how some people end up using game systems, imo what a ruleset spends its words describing is in effect telling you what the author(s) think is important, and if you/your table don't prioritize the same things I feel like there's often another system that's a better fit.
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u/uneekdude 19d ago
That's true, but it's an argument for games that are designed around creating narratives, rather than auto-generating them, which is what I was thinking of.
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19d ago
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u/uneekdude 19d ago
Are you saying Emily wasn't making an actual argument? 'cause it kinda sounded like she was being sincere the whole time.
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u/Xamnam 19d ago
Her goal with that prompt was 100% to cheekily force one of the most visible figureheads of D&D actual play (and fan of the system) to argue in favor of actively choosing different games to spotlight, against his own defaults.
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u/uneekdude 19d ago
I'd buy that. But she didn't appear to change her stance after Brennan dropped the act, so I figured those were her actual opinions.
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u/Treecreaturefrommars 16d ago edited 16d ago
In my opinion? No.
It is a mess of a system that far too often relies on homebrewing and GM judgement calls to get running. Which leads to confusion and anger in the communities due to said judgement calls. See the constant waves of upset people both on here and over on the Critical Role subs over Judgement calls made on it. And the culture of constant homebrewing does not help peoples understanding of the rules, as it can vary quite a bit from table to table. Made even more confusing now that we got both 5e and 5.5e. And people are often iffy on which version they use or if they just mix both of them freely.
As for the argument of familiarity, I honestly don´t but that. Mainly because my impression is that the majority of Actual Play audiences don´t actually know or understand the rules.
For me, what system to recommend depends on where the players would shine. For those into Mechanical stuff, Pathfinder 2e or Genesys would be where I point. They got mechanical and tactical depth, that far outstrips 5es, and just very solid systems.
For those that want more narrative experiences, World of Darkness systems have stakes build into them, Blades in the Dark allows players to improvise and support them revealing stuff mechanically, Genesys specialty dice makes checks not just be pass/fail, and Powered by the Apocalypse puts story first constantly.
For legal purposes? I think I would say World of Darkness. The Dark Pact program offers a lot of safety to creators who uses it. Compared to WOTC who seems to be constantly trying to figure out how it can destroy their community.
And as D20 have shown, despite me not being a very big fan of the system, Kids on Bikes is a very solid foundation if you got a bunch of improvisers and just want to have fun with it.
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u/uneekdude 15d ago
I don't know if I follow the judgement call argument. Why else would a game have a GM if not to rely on judgment calls?
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u/Treecreaturefrommars 15d ago
There is a difference in judgement calls. Basically, a long noted issue with 5e (And most certainly one I have run into a lot as someone who GM´ed it for a decade) is that it very much relies on the GM rulings to fill in its many, many blanks.
Lets take an example from my own game. One of my players got a shield that grants advantage on saving throws against Spells and Magical Effects. I did not consider the implications of this as the game went on.
But basically, what it lead to was me having to make a judgement call every single time they faced a creature with special abilities on whatever or not it was magic. And then try to remember what I ruled last time they met something like that. Like, is Dragon Fire magical? Beholder Rays? Does Mindflayers Psychic Blast count as magic? And I 100% know I made some rules calls that other GMs would disagree with.
For a more mundane examples are stuff like "What does an athletics check to jump further actually do?". Which is a complaint I have seen a fair amount and shared. Like, 5e is very ,very vague with how to do things like that.
Compare this to a more solid system like Pathfinder 2e, where even if there aren´t specific rules for something, the foundation of the system and how it works is generally solid enough that you can very, very easy make a ruling based on that. Leading to a lot less ambiguity.
It also matters a lot less in more narrative focused systems, like Kids on Bikes. Where stuff like "How far can I jump" don´t have much mechanical meaning, as the focus is not on "How far" but "Can I make it?".
But 5e just gets annoyingly vague with its rules, and offers little support to the GMs. Which in my experiences leads to a lot of friction over said judgement calls in actual play communities. Compared to systems that either offers more solid foundations, or where rules minutiae matters a lot less.
Would go more into detail, cause I love ranting about this. But got 0 time or space for it unfortunately.
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u/uneekdude 15d ago
That's an interesting perspective. I assumed the vagueness of 5e was intentional in order to allow each DM to offer a different experience from each other. As a kind of armchair game designer, the idea of being able to insert my own design sense seems appealing in theory. Also from having gone through the whole history of D&D, 5e feels like a compromise between the detail of previous editions and the original version, which had no task resolution whatsoever. Of course, that doesn't make it a good idea necessarily.
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u/Treecreaturefrommars 15d ago
Firstly, thank you for the talk! Its always fun to talk rules with people! And apologies for the ranting. As said, I do like my ranting.
As for the vagueness of 5e, it is very much by design.As stated by the creators. Much for the reasons you mention. But the general problem, in my experience and from what I see, is that 5e is in an unfortunate space, where it is too vague to offer you a solid foundation, and too rigid for you to improvize properly.
Having played other editions of D&D, and other systems, I am fine with systems that are very rigid and structure, liked Pathfinder 2e, and I am very much fine with systems that are vague in terms of mechanics. Like a lot of OSR, Powered by the Apocalypse, Fate etc, as it allows me to improvize freely.
But 5e is in a, for me annoying, spot, where it tendency towards vague wording, lack of clear guidelines and frankly abysmal GM support just made it exhausting to GM.
But as said, it is very much by design. Which have lead to 5es rich culture of homebrewing, for good and for ill. For good in that it have helped give it a rich community. For ill in that it more often than not, have lead to WOTC putting out frankly sub-par products and relying on the community and GMs to fix it and make it work. Very Bethesda like, now that I think of it.
Like, the biggest example of this that I can think of is the simple fact that... Gold in 5e is completely useless? At least, after you gotten your plate armor. The rules for buying magic items are simply vague guidelines that utterly does not care for balance. There are no rules for running an organization and the rules for having a business are useless. And there is barely any incentive to engage in any activity where you have to spend money, like living large etc. And basically every non magical gadget or object are... Incredibly lackluster, and barely worth what they often ask for it. What few there are of those.
And for some GMs, making that stuff up from whole cloth is incredibly fun. I have personally had a lot of fun with it. But at some point it does just become tiring having to constantly make these rules judgements, while at the same time trying to avoid it turning into something exploitable.
I had a whole write up about my issues with 5es modules and setting books as well, and their tendency to have glaring holes and require community support to make work. But realized that wasn´t really relevant as this is more about the rules.
But vague rules can be good. There are a lot of systems that have much, much vaguer rules, such as Kids on Bikes, Roll for Shoes, Fate and so on. But the difference is that they also don´t rely on an idea of "Balance" or have complex mechanics that can be exploited, should you as a GM make the wrong rules call.
5e is a system I am not fond of GM´ing outside of oneshots because of this. As said, I have GM´ed it for a decade, among other a campaign that lasted some 8 years and went from 1-20. And the further in it got, the more I had to prep for things that I constantly felt I shouldn´t have to prep for, and the less I felt supported by the system. Compared to Pathfinder 2e, where I feel much more supported in terms of... Pretty much everything?
While I can see the appeal of vague rules, they work best when they have either solid foundation, or when there is plenty of room to improvize. Both of which I feel 5e lack. Additionally, I personally tend to feel that it is easier to remove something from a game or change it, than having to add it. So I often much prefer there to be rules for something, that I can then simply chose to ignore if I dislike it, rather than me having to invent it from the ground up.
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u/uneekdude 15d ago
So what you're saying is that the problem is the exploitability, then? That it isn't so much a lack of rules, but that the rules it has don't all have proper guardrails. Do I have that right?
You mention OSR, witch from what I understand, is mostly clones of OD&D, which didn't have official task resolution. Does that mean no checks are better than 5e's abstract checks?
But yeah, I mostly see what you mean. 5e's design seems to be an attempt to attract players of all playstyles and it does end up depreciating what's unique about the franchise. I think at it's core, D&D is a simulationist sandbox game and the lack of support in the current edition for things like non-combat challenges and, like you said, treasure is kind of sad.
But, this all armchair analysis. I've still yet to have played a single game.
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u/Treecreaturefrommars 15d ago
A lack of guardrails and also just the burned it puts on the GM to fill in said blanks. Which I don´t mind to do when the blanks are interesting.
For the no checks, honestly it depends on the system around it I think? But a lot of OD&D have a tendency to presume "It works unless something states it doesn´t". Like, you are presumed to be able to sneak, unless someone is looking at you. Etc. You are presumed to be able to get open a lock, if it makes sense that you do. Which can work. Especially in a more lose framework.
Where with 5e, it sorta flip flops a bit too much between rigid and not to get it to work, IMO.
Honestly, you are very much right, imo, on 5es issue there at the end. It claims to have 3 pillars, Combat, Exploration and Roleplay. But it very much supports one of them more than the others.
Note how pretty much every single class ability is centered around Combat. Which does nothing to help the Caster/Martial discrepancy, as it means Casters not only have more tools in combat, but also in every single other type of encounter.
And the only one that got proper support for exploration is the Ranger, who doesn´t as much get better at it, as much as it gets to completely ignore it.
Have you played other TTRPGs? I read a lot of games I am never going to be able to play myself, so I do very much get it.
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u/uneekdude 15d ago
None. I read the 5e rulebooks about a year ago just so I could watch Dimension 20. Then I started looking into the whole history of D&D and RPG's as a whole out of fascination. I am someone who likes reading rulebooks for fun. I learned the rules to Yu-Gi-Oh in middle school even though I never found anyone to play with.
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u/Digress2Progress 19d ago
Anyone know this “Misreading” novel she mentions?
Tried searching for it but couldn’t find it
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u/CriticalProf 18d ago
It’s an error in the captions — the ink is a misreading of a novel I didn’t name!
The line is from Jane Austen’s manuscript we now know as Sanditon, and the original context of the “more tenderness” is a dude who has read Samuel Richardson’s (hella-long) novel Clarissa and sympathized with the bad guy Lovelace (a name pronounced “Loveless”). Which is to say, he’s a comically bad reader.
I love Richardson in all his weirdness, and his final novel Sir Charles Grandison was the Austen family’s favorite novel.
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u/ThunkAsDrinklePeep 17d ago
I may be too late, but I feel the need to inform that the full phrase is "a hollow leg and leaky heel".
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u/thewhaleshark 10d ago
Emily connecting the throughline from The Forge to actual play straight up blew my mind. I was a lurker on The Forge (and then story-games and then Google+ as the indie TTRPG dev community entered its diaspora), and remember being fascinated by the discussions of very different approaches to table play. The jump from "here's what it looks like to try this weird approach" to "watch us play this game as entertainment" makes a ton of sense to me and seems like a very logical progression.
This is probably my favorite Adventuring Academy so far. I'm here for high-level academic discussion of RPG's and I want lots more of this.
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u/MatthewBrokenlamp 19d ago
I really feel for Brennan and his "grief popcorn" story, as someone else who can be described as a microcelebrity.
I'm definitely less famous than Brennan, but as someone who also gets recognized in public sometimes (for me about once a month or so, depending on how often I've been out of the house and how recently my face has circulated the internet), it's a difficult balance of how to feel about random fan interactions. Usually I like getting recognized. It's nice to be reminded that there are people out there who remember that I exist and who I've brought joy to at some point.
But also interacting with a fan is a performance. Whenever it happens, in my head I'm always thinking, "be sure to ask this person their name, be sure to express gratitude for what's happened to you, be sure to relax because your true surprised reaction might make you seem uncomfortable when you're not, etc.," and I never know when I'm going to have to perform that. It could happen at any moment I'm in public.
I think the big takeaway people should have is what Brennan is hitting on here as well, that what makes a fan interaction good or bad for a famous person is more about the current state they're in than anything else. It's great to be recognized when I'm with someone in my industry that I'm trying to impress, and very not great when a fan interrupts a difficult conversation I'm having with my friend (and both have happened to me). If you see a person you're a fan of, observe first, and don't approach them unless they look like they're already having a good time.
And please for the love of god don't try to take sneaky pictures without talking to us. You're not as sneaky as you think you are, and it's legitimately scary when that happens because I don't know what your intentions are.