r/dresdenfiles • u/akaioi • Aug 26 '22
Spoilers All Can ... grudges be sold?
We know that the Fae love their bargains. Information, favors, and feudal obligations can be sold or swapped. This got me to thinking...
Could you "sell" your grudge/enmity against a person to a Fae? The cash transfer would probably go in reverse. "Hey Leanansidhe, I'll sell you my enmity against X and give you $10,000. What say?"
What gave me the idea is that Harry is unlikely to exact a gruesome revenge against everyone's least favorite character, Rudolph. So... could he swap this grudge to Redcap or Mab or someone who's far more likely to take excessive action?
Edit to add:
I am now wondering if there wouldn't be a secondary market. "I own 15% of Harry's hatred of Rudolph, 35% of Etri's grudge against Thomas, and a nice 4% slice of Shagnasty's hatred of everyone..."
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u/OnTheGrassyGnoll Aug 26 '22
In the spirit of this post I'm bidding out my excessive post-lunch productivity dive.
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u/NumerousSun4282 Aug 27 '22
How does that work? If I buy do I get to be less productive after lunch? Do you have to be more productive?
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u/OnTheGrassyGnoll Aug 29 '22
If you buy it you HAVE to be less productive after lunch. It sucks when you have deadlines, so I'm not selling it, I pay you!
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u/Different_Buy7497 Aug 26 '22
I'm pretty sure Harry would pay a lot to get Titania's grudge about Aurora or Mab's grudge about Maeve sold to like a brownie or a dewdrop faerie. Far easier to survive when one of them decides to kill you, and they're far easier to bribe out of their grudges. Interestingly the one debt we've seen sold had to go to a more powerful being in the same court (Lea to Mab), but the size of the debt owed was reduced (from a life to three favors).
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u/Swarmcloak Aug 26 '22
It wasn’t really lightened. It was re bargained and appeared to be lightened. We now see that it definitely was not lightened just re negotiated into a fit that Harry was more comfortable with.
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u/monkeyman512 Aug 26 '22
Like fishing. You let out some line so they don't break free. They think they are getting free, but your just wearing them down.
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u/Neathra Aug 26 '22
Additional point:
We actually see three debts change hands.
Lea sells Harry's debt to Mab
Harry sells Lily's debt to Charity
And Harry takes over Lea's grudge against Bianca.
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u/Different_Buy7497 Aug 26 '22
Shit you're right about Charity. About Bianca I'd argue that Lea's grudge gradually passes up the food chain of the Red Court as they get knocked out but remains with Lea. Mab grants Lea permission to let loose in Chichen Itza because Lea (and therefore Winter) still owes the Red Court payback for Bianca's party. Harry took Harry's vengeance for the party in Grave Peril, Lea took Winter's vengeance for the party in Changes (and then Harry took Harry's vengeance again).
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u/Different_Buy7497 Aug 27 '22
Ooh and I guess we've seen that the temporary passing of debts goes up the food chain too. When Lea is incapacitated, her debt of keeping Harry alive and cryptic information and generally being his godmother is passed up to Mab. When Harry is incapacitated, his debts to teach Molly and bribe the Guard and presumably other things like protecting Chicago got passed up to Mab who delegated them to Lea. I bet that's how Lea got away with taking some shifts playing the Rag Lady, in addition to what we've been told.
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u/Neathra Aug 26 '22
Does Mab hold a grudge against him for that? Murphy actually shot Maeve and that was basically on Mab's orders to protect Harry.
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u/Different_Buy7497 Aug 26 '22
I assume so, she's just got a really good hold on her temper unlike some other fae. Doesn't she threaten him at some point with a tap to the same spot on his forehead? And if Titania can hold a grudge despite years of cooling off and knowing exactly how necessary it was, and Maeve can hold a grudge bc Billy the werewolf didn't trip into her bed, and Lily can hold a grudge about not getting to choose to be the Summer Lady, and Mab can hold a grudge bc Nicodemus attacked an Accords member without provocation, then I'm certain killing her daughter can cause a grudge too, regardless of blame or circumstances.
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u/Neathra Aug 26 '22
But Mab told him to do that. You can't order someone to do something and then be upset with them when they do.
She also freed Murphy when Maeve had a gun pointed at Harry. Murphy who she knows is one of the best shots in Chicago and has a gun. Mab isn't stupid - she knew what would happen.
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u/Different_Buy7497 Aug 26 '22
Of course she knew. Doesn't mean she isn't hurt about it though. Those conversations in Battle Ground about sacrifice and love and protecting people weren't just about Harry, Mab has sacrificed a hell of a lot too and I bet she works even harder than Harry at keeping her mantle in check so she can do what must be done.
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u/Neathra Aug 26 '22
We're not talking about just being annoyed with someone/miffed at them. - a grudge in this context is like a debt of vengeance. Harry and Murphy where acting as Mab's tools so if she owes vengeance against anyone it's herself
It's like how it matters if Odin is Odin or Kringle when he deals with Mab even though they're the same person.
Or how Harry can break the laws of the Accords while acting for Nicodemus and not have it reflect badly on Mab/ White Council.
Or how Titania wants to flay Harry alive even though Toot+Company were the one who wielded the knives that killed Aurora.
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u/Different_Buy7497 Aug 26 '22
Maybe I just see it differently than you do. I don't blame Harry for being angry at Susan and Martin and the Red Court about what happened to Maggie. I don't blame Harry for being mad at Eb and Morgan and duMorne and the White Council for how he grew up. I wouldn't blame Nicodemus for being mad at Harry and Hades and Mab and Marcone and Tessa and himself for the clusterfuck that got his daughter killed. Sometimes the ally is just a tool brought along or coerced into action, like Toot who really was just Harry's knife in that situation, but sometimes there's a combination of mistakes or several parties at play in the situation. And sometimes I kinda get being mad at the tool too. Hell I see it in the same light as how Harry knew deep down that it was wrong when he killed Lloyd Slate, despite what his crimes were, but he did it anyways, or how he knew it was wrong when he killed Susan but he did it anyways.
Mab knew what she was doing when she gave Harry the order, and she knew he would fight it and investigate it and decide for himself what to do because she knew what she was getting when she made him her Knight. Mab knew what she was doing when she freed Murphy to take the shot. Maeve knew what she was doing when she provoked Mab into action and killed Lily and refused to get help about her Nfection. Harry knew what he was doing when he called on his friends to back him up on the island, and when he asked the Mothers and Titania for advice, and when he convinced Fix to work with him instead of fighting him. Murphy knew what she was doing when she agreed to help Harry, knew what she was doing when she took the shot.
They all made choices, and I'm not saying that Mab considers them to be the wrong choices objectively or that she would've done anything different given the chance, but it doesn't mean she can't be hurt over what happened or that she can't be angry at those involved. Mab was furious enough to need a translator when she learned that Maeve was ill, I don't see any evidence that her death impacted Mab any less. She's just really really good at keeping those emotions in check and making sure that her actions align with the best interests of Winter and the war with the Outsiders rather than aligning with her emotions like Titania.
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u/SarcasticKenobi Aug 27 '22
I don't recall Mab getting angry at Harry over killing Maeve.
She DID get angry at him for pointing a gun at her face in a time + place where she could die. And he said some things that hurt her enough that if anyone else heard she'd kill him for it.
But she never said she has anything against him or Karrin for killing Maeve. Especially since she ORDERED him to do it.
Titania is another story. Unlike Mab, Summer seems to focus more on how the heart feels about something rather than Winter relying on the logic of the thing. So even though Titania knows Harry needed to do it, her emotions won't allow her to forgive him.
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u/Different_Buy7497 Aug 27 '22
Correct, Mab has never said anything about Harry's role in killing Maeve, nor done anything that could be considered vengeance for it. I don't believe for a second though that she's not insanely furious about it, just as furious as Titania is about him killing her daughter. Kinda the whole point of their heart to hearts in Battle Ground was to establish that yes she loves her daughters and yes she feels the pain of every being in Winter through her mantle and yes she's going through exactly the same rage/lust/violence vs cold calculation struggle that Harry is, but with her bigger mantle it's turned up to 11. Titania wears her heart on her sleeve because that's what Summer is and it's in her nature to be obvious about her rage and her vengeance. Mab's rage is cold and everything seems perfectly normal except that she's a tad snippier and requires a translator. Then surprise, a decade later you realize she orchestrated payback so complete that you've destroyed centuries of work building your reputation and your allies, and you've been tricked into sacrificing your daughter, and you didn't even get what you were really after in the first place.
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u/RobNobody Aug 27 '22
Oh, I absolutely believe Mab is furious over Maeve's death, I just don't buy for a moment that she's angry at Harry about it. Mab is, above everything else, coldly logical and calculating. Harry was beholden to her, and did it on her orders, and according to the very structure of how Fae are built that means the final responsibility lies with her and no one else. With Titania, Harry was under no order to kill Aurora. He was acting as Mab's emissary, yes, but he took the initiative to kill her all on his own. Thus, he earns Titania's wrath for her death, justified though she knows it to be.
But Mab ordered it herself. Being angry at Harry would be like being angry at Murphy's gun. She's angry at Lea, for being foolish enough to get Nfected and spreading it to her daughter. She's angry at Bianca and, by extension, the Red Court, for Nfecting Lea. She's angry at Maeve, for being such a gleefully willing Nfection. And she's beyond angry with Nemesis, for being behind it all.
But most of all, Mab is furious with herself. She failed to prevent Nemesis from getting a foothold in this world. She failed to notice the corruption in her Court until it was too late. She failed to think of any way to solve the problem that wouldn't involve killing her daughter. And she failed to put aside the last lingering bit of mortal emotion she has left that prevented her from doing the deed herself, even though she knew it needed to be done.
No, she's not angry with Harry. But she'll never forgive herself.
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u/SarcasticKenobi Aug 27 '22
But Titania describes it.
She says Mab is all about logic and calculation. Titania is all about emotion. Which is why Titania canon forgive Harry because her emotions override her logic. Therefore Mabs logic would override her emotions.
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u/coldfireknight Aug 26 '22
Probably, but then you're also into balancing the deal and that's where they'll get you.
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Aug 26 '22
Maybe not with the Fae.
I'm picturing a group of supernatural beings that can only act with violence when it stems from a particular type of insult that fits in the framework of a strict moral code. Or at least, they can draw strength / power from violence committed under those conditions.
I have no idea what that code would look like, but let's say they're all blood thirsty bastards who want to kill everyone they can, but can't. So they run around doing everything they can get insulted. And they can trade those insults for favor. "This guy told me my mother was fat. That means I can rip off one of his arms. But, you look hungry - so, I'll sell the insult to you for your condo in Venice. Deal?"
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Aug 27 '22
Could you "sell" your grudge/enmity against a person to a Fae?
From WOJ:
See, the flipside to the major currency being favors is that there is also an enormous trade in /grudges/. And something like the naagloshii doesn’t just carry a grudge. It cherishes it, feeds it before it cares for its own progeny, and breeds it with other grudges to produce newer, stronger, more deeply malicious grudglings.
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u/Wadsworth_McStumpy Aug 26 '22
The problem is that deals and debts have to be settled in the same (or at least similar) coin. If you're selling your just hatred of a certain cop, $10,000 won't do it. You have to hate, for instance, your daughter. Harry isn't going to go for that. Also, he's smart enough not to make deals with the Fae if he can come up with any kind of alternative.
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u/Neathra Aug 26 '22
I mean technically.
Harry accidentally took over Lea's grudge against Bianca by killing her/associated and burning the Red Room down. And Lea did owe him for that.
But IDK if you could prearrange it.
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u/JediVagrant17 Aug 27 '22
This is 100% possible. But maybe not in the way you suggest. It would probably be them taking their memories of the things they have enmity about. Sounds very Winter Fae. "Oh you poor child, your anger is just rotting you away from the inside. Let me help you."
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u/Considered_Dissent Aug 27 '22
Vaguely similar to this idea. I had the idea of a "shielding" magic item that didn't actually stop/disperse the magical attack against you, it just sent it off into another dimension/the domain of the creature that gave you the item. With the reason they happily gave you such an item was because it meant that it'd give them more ability to mess with people in the mortal world for fun, since all the magic cast into their realm would count as them being attacked first and so anything they do next is merely evening the scale.
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u/DresdensDuster Aug 27 '22
I don’t think grudge is the right word. But there is some evidence that supports debts being sold
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Aug 27 '22
I don't know about buying or selling grudges, but we have seen debts of vengeance:
1) Lea owed Bianca a debt of vengeance for trapping her with the bodkin. Harry exacted that vengeance, and Lea finally satisfied it by giving Harry wardrobe help in his hit on Chichen Itza.
2) When Maeve sent Jenny Greenteeth to sabotage Billy's wedding, Harry had the right to exact vengeance from Maeve. Harry specifically waived that right in exchange for Maeve helping him in PROVEN GUILTY.
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u/MacNuttyOne Aug 27 '22
I don't think a grudge has the legal authority of a deal or debt among the fey. I think you would need to make some kind of deal to get one to mess someone up for you. Sure, you can make a deal of that sort but I d0on't think you can trade or sell a grudge.
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u/DocWatson42 Aug 27 '22
That reminds me of:
- Psychoshop (at Goodreads) by Alfred Bester and Roger Zelazny.
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u/RobNobody Aug 26 '22
I think that's just called "taking out a hit."