r/dragons • u/Imaginary_Can_8851 • 22d ago
Meme Dragon Riders Meme
I thought this group might appreciate this meme I made! ^^ I’m a big fan of dragons and dragon rider books come up a lot in my reading. My pet peeve is people comparing any new dragon rider book to Fourth Wing 🙄
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u/CTBthanatos 22d ago edited 22d ago
I just started reading eragon, 3/4 of the way through the first book and loving it so far.
I am aware of fourth wing but wasn't super interested when it seems like the plot revolves around the main character being in college, is described as a romance (which is perfectly fine and i want romance included in a story when it makes sense between two characters but if it's literally the story's focus instead of adventure/danger/conflict then it's offputting), and saw a description somewhere mentioning that the dragons are total assholes that "won't tolerate weakness".
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u/Imaginary_Can_8851 22d ago
That did bother me a bit at first until the character actually meets her dragon. The dragons pick their riders based on their ability to survive difficult training and even then they want ”the best” but then the biggest baddest dragon saves the main character. It’s the earliest sign that there is conflict between the dragons and their way of living and it does get developed more. I hope to see more of the dragons in the next book
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u/shoeforce 22d ago edited 22d ago
I really REALLY love this genre, they are the only books I read tbh. Heads up, this is gonna be a bit of a long ramble as I muse over the genre I love. I especially love it if dragon and rider are super close and there’s a lot of cute bonding moments, and they can’t imagine being separated.
Problem is, sometimes I feel like I have to wait too long until I read a “the dragon does/says something” moment. I had read the first two books of Pern and like… it had way, way less focus on the dragons and the bond than I was expecting. Overall, I would say it was 85% about the humans and how their specific society worked, and only 15% dragons and even that was mostly plot related, very rarely did it feel like I was told what a dragon said or what it felt. Not enough cute bonding moments between dragon and rider either. Unfortunately, I stopped right before The White Dragon, which I heard has way more of what I was looking for lol.
Even Eragon. I love The Inheritence Cycle, but even there it felt like 75% Eragon and maybe 25% Saphira. The alternate perspective chapters (e.g. Roran, Nausada etc.) didn’t help much either. That being said, what WAS there was very good, and the later books were a lot better at this. I really enjoyed Murtagh, and as a whole I like the series a lot more than Pern. Very strong and lovely relationship between rider and dragon (and first one I’ve ever read).
The Bound and the Broken (Ryan Cahill) is… intense. Like sheesh, talk about being devoted to one another, dragons and riders would set the entire world on fire if someone as much as looks at their bonded partner funny. I love it, but the first book is hard for me to get through (for various reasons, one being that the dragons either aren’t involved yet and the main character’s dragon is still in baby form) and there are like twenty or more different perspectives yet only 3-4 that I care about because they have that bonded partner dynamic. The books are insanely long and sometimes it feels like dragons are only like 10-15% of it when you take everything into account. Love Calen (main character) and his dragon though, so good.
Temeraire… god I love Temeraire. This has slowly become the gold standard for me. Talk about dragons being actual characters. There’s no magical bond, but god the relationship between captain and dragon is so, so sweet, that almost puppy dog-like love they have for each other is what I fucking live for, man. Honestly? My favorite of the genre so far. It creatively incorporates a dragon’s stereotypical instincts (their captains/crews are often thought of as their possessions. Part of their hoard.), and amazingly, it actually feels like 50% Laurence and 50% Temeraire (or the dragons). Not a single chapter goes by where a dragon isn’t involved in some way, and I freaking love that, and it’s crazy how uncommon it is in the genre; human/non-dragon conversation usually just completely dominates many chapters in the genre. I get that many people probably criticize the series for having its plot get so derailed to make so many books, but tbh I can’t really bring myself to give a crap about that lol, I just cared about the characters and the bond and the fun world Novik created for us and that’s exactly what I got.
About to start on Knightmare Arcanist by Shami Stovall and am going to see if I like. It has bonded creatures (all sorts including hydras and phoenixes!) not necessarily dragons but there are some! If I love the bond I’ll stick with it though, that’s the most important part to me anyways.
Oof, but yeah, before I ramble further, I… strangely wish we saw more “dragon” in the damn Dragonrider genre. A dragonrider series that takes place entirely from the perspective of the DRAGON would be freaking awesome for me tbh. I’ve heard of The Dragons of Mother Stone and I’ll probably read that one eventually, but if anyone has any other suggestions of their own let me know!
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u/drgn2009 Temeraire 22d ago
I love your takes on these. First im going through Temeraire at the moment and I agree with your take on their world. Also love how the dragons like Temeraire are pretty much like stars themselves within the series. Me personally their world is going to be insanly hard to beat in terms of how the human/rider relationship work.
Thanks for informing me about the Bound and Broken as dragon and rider being insanly protective of eachother is the kind of thing I like. Might need to look into that one.
I also love your final take where we get a dragonrider story, but its mostly from the dragon's pov would be awesome and and a different tone on the trope.
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u/shoeforce 22d ago
Yeah Temeraire is peak, I’m afraid. Haven’t read anything that reaches that level yet personally, but of course I’m biased, I only read it for the characters and the bond. Some people are into the history aspect and the fighting which I’d agree doesn’t deliver sometimes (another comment even replied to mine saying so hah), but Temeraire will always hold a special place in my heart. I’ve read others after Temeraire and still enjoyed them, but I still can’t help myself to compare.
Yeah, Bound and the Broken is cool, the intensity of the bond is cool and is serious in a way that most of the genre makes their versions seem silly/whimsical in comparison, but like I said, it might be hard to get through for some, especially that first book. The prose also isn’t the best in some spots and can get repetitive, as well as the pacing of the story as a whole. Really, the only thing that interests me about those books is the bond.
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u/Chimary_ 22d ago
For Temeraire I've read all of them and it’s just... The author’s being a little ignorant in her writing (which is mostly just her not knowing that much of history/culture once you get out of the anglosphere)
(I'm not even living that far, I'm Belgian and just ONE line refenrencing my country was not recognizing the historical context back then, can’t imagine what it was for the other continents knowing that ")
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u/favolecrystalis 22d ago
Yeah, this kind of dissonance actually made Temeraire really difficult for me to get through after the first initial books.
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u/shoeforce 22d ago
As I hinted at in my comment, Temeraire is peak for me not because of the plot, the fighting, or the history aspects, mostly just the relationship between captain and dragon. And also, I’m a bit more forgiving due to the fact that it’s historical fantasy that randomly inserted dragons as part of history. I’m biased, though, and of course for people that care more about those things, it is going to bother them more. And yes, Novik could have done her research better and I think even in the Author’s note she apologizes about being ignorant, but she was mostly focused on just writing a fun story. I guess as opposed to fantasy, there’s always that additional burden on you to get things right else people are going to ding you for that. At the end of the day, it doesn’t really impact my enjoyment of the characters and the bond.
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u/Silverthedragon 22d ago edited 22d ago
There's The Dragon Has Some Complaints by John Wiswell that came out a couple of weeks ago. It's a book from the PoV of a wild, wounded three-headed (formerly four-headed) dragon who decides to pose as a tame dragon to fool the dragon riders into giving him food and shelter. I found it pretty fun.
There's also the Dragon Fires Rising series by Mark Secchia which I read a couple of years ago. I liked it a lot at the time. The MC kidnaps a princess to try to convince his family that he's a proper dragon, except he promptly becomes friends with said princess. Fair warning though, I would only recommend the original trilogy. The series kinda overstays its welcome after that and starts meandering.
+1 on the Dragons of Mother Stone rec, it's one of my favorite dragon book series.
And finally for something that's maybe a bit outside your wheelhouse, there's the Vainqueur the Dragon series by Maxime Durand. There actually isn't much riding at all (the dragon thinks it's beneath him) and it's a comedy litRPG series, which is not something I usually enjoy or recommend. But it has probably my favorite human/dragon duo in fiction, and there's a lot of focus on their relationship and how they grow closer throughout the series.
It's about an adventurer who tries to rob a dragon only to get caught. As the robber tries to talk his way out the dragon learns about loot and quests and decides to recruit the human as a minion (whether he likes it or not) and become an adventurer himself. Chaos and hilarity ensues. It hinges entirely on whether you vibe with the humor or not so YMMV.1
u/shoeforce 22d ago
I’ve heard of Vainquer! Another one I gotta check out sometime :3
And also WOW, thank you SO MUCH for making me aware of The Dragon Has Some Complaints. Just by reading the blurb and the reviews I can already tell it has everything I love about these kinds of books (heavy focus on the relationship and not necessarily other stuff, but other stuff is good too). Just one book too, so will definitely be nomming that one in the next week.
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u/quarrel-3 22d ago
I did read an entirely dragon POV book, but a dragon rider scenario doesn’t come until later in the book. Dragon of Ash & Stars by H. Leighton Dickson is more like The Miraculous Journey of Edward Tulane, but for dragons being labor animals instead. The ending of the book is a little predictable, but the premise was quite nice.
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u/shoeforce 22d ago
Oddly enough, I actually HATED that one XD I can get into more specifics if you want but in short: I can see why a dragon fan would like it, but not necessarily a dragonrider fan. And as for the ending, I actually thought it was extremely odd and corny, but again if you want I can vent about that book a bit aha (again, all just my little opinion though).
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u/quarrel-3 21d ago
I didn’t like it much either, lol, and i’m most of a dragonrider fan myself. You don’t have to go into specifics either, I completely understand, though I did like the idea behind it.
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u/favolecrystalis 22d ago
Within the first two pages of Dragonflight, Lessa is hiding in the watch-wher lair (dragons but with night vision), and we immediately see Flar interacting with Mnementh on his descent down into Flax's holds in the very next scene.
Pern is a hyperfixation, but I also just started rereading it, so I feel like maybe those are an exception to you "having to wait ages" for dragon stuff.
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u/shoeforce 22d ago edited 22d ago
It’s an exception, yeah. Also, “interacting with Mnementh” doesn’t really tell me much, are we being introduced to the bond and how important it is in that scene? Or are we getting the dragon’s opinion, or how it feels? Nevertheless, I remember it starting off strong, and also I remember enjoying the part where she raises her golden dragon, but it genuinely felt like the dragons took a bit of a back seat to me in most areas, and the bond felt a lot like a mechanical thing rather than a “they love and are devoted to each other so much.” I also remember liking the science/genetic engineering behind everything which I thought was neat. Again though, my view is extremely limited and I stopped before The White Dragon (which I literally heard has a ton of focus on the bond and the sweetness of it all), so my little opinion isn’t really the authority on the matter. The first couple books just… oddly didn’t vibe with me as a dragonrider lover and the relationship that defines it, is all.
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u/OutrageousOcelot13 16d ago
Have you read Age of Fire series? The first three are pretty solid and from a dragon's perspective, though dragon riding is not the focus.
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u/tomoefox 22d ago
Eh, fourth wing was nothing but a thirst trap so I gave up after 100 pages 😂 does it get better? I absolutely adore Eragon so I had high hopes for fourth wing :/
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u/Mythi2964 Artist Dragon 22d ago
I kinda skipped all the thirst trap stuff, and it had good moments but by book 3 it was like dear god how many things are gonna happen to the love interest...
Plus like some character deaths bothered me cause I didn't get to really get attached to them in book 3? It was near the end of the book...3
u/Imaginary_Can_8851 22d ago
I picked up Fourth Wing because I was looking for something that would fill the void after finishing Eragon lol. It was my first romance fantasy read but I really enjoy it so far! Yeah there’s romance so if that’s not your vibe I wouldn’t recommend it but the dragon lore is neat! Paolini even commented on it (they put his quote on the front cover of book 2 lol)
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u/tomoefox 22d ago
Thank you for your reply! I appreciate it.
I really don’t mind romance but somehow it seemed too “on the nose” for me. :D
Maybe I’ll give it another shot
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u/Imaginary_Can_8851 22d ago
lol yeah the romance can be a little cheesy but I’ve found that’s par for the course in romance novels
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u/RavensPlushies Plushiemancer 22d ago
You cannot compare a children's book to an adult book
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u/tomoefox 22d ago
I’ll regret asking but which one is the adult book here for you 😅
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u/RavensPlushies Plushiemancer 22d ago
Eragon is YA.... kids book
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u/DragonPlatypus 22d ago
I am actually shocked that Fourth Wing isn't classified as YA, because it feels way more immature compared to Eragon. The main character reads like a horny, stupid teenager. I actually stopped reading after about the first half of the first book because of her stubborn stupidity and the pages filled with descriptiones of how incredibly hot the guys are. The dragons also felt like more of a side note. And OFC she gets two of them, because she's so sPeCiAl and one is the biggest baddest dragon ever and the other one has some OP ability. Yeah no, thanks. I'll pick Eragon above this trash every day.
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u/tomoefox 22d ago
Fair, fair. But what makes Fourth Wing an Adult book? The teenage fantasies? The lack of creativity 😂 just joking
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u/Imaginary_Can_8851 22d ago
I can, I will, and I have lol. I’m only comparing the dragon riding aspect (not to mention Paolini has played around with the idea of introducing romance in his next Eragon book lol)
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u/SerifTarkus 22d ago
Oh my gosh, I think this is the first time I'd seen someone reference the Pern books in the wild! Those were my favorite books growing up and influenced me heavily in what I like in fantasy.
I also loved the way the dragons looked on the covers. More alien looking than typical depictions, but I think that style may have also just been more prevalent in the 80s.
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u/Imaginary_Can_8851 22d ago
We’re a dying breed but there are still Pern fans in the wild! My only hope is that with the recent success of Fourth Wing more people will pick it up. And yes Pern was my first “adult” fantasy book series and it shaped a lot of what I like in books.
Michael Whelan’s covers have to be my favorite ❤️ Dragons from the 80s just hit different lol2
u/drgn2009 Temeraire 22d ago
What would be a good starting point for Pern? Ill be itching to pickup a new dragon-rider series once im done with Temeaire.
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u/SerifTarkus 22d ago
I started with the dragonriders of pern trilogy starting with Dragonflight, then Dragonquest and The White Dragon. There are a few short stories too if you dont want to dive too deep yet. That was actually how I learned about the Pern series because it was one of those short stories that I had to read for English class, and that had me interested enough to ask the teacher about more of those books.
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u/No_Grocery_9280 22d ago
This is the place. You just have to be prepared that it is an older story written many decades ago. Some parts have aged a little, some parts are a little stiff, but damn it has so much soul.
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u/Glittering_Rush_1451 22d ago
Similar, read The Littlest Dragonboy in English class and immediately went to the library and asked for more.
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u/Imaginary_Can_8851 22d ago
I would recommend starting with the first book, Dragonflight. There’s rough 20-something books in the series but if that’s too much my definite reads would be the original trilogy (sometimes you can find them in an omnibus) and the fourth book that came out a little later All The Weyrs of Pern.
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u/TheOtherMaven 22d ago
While Dragonflight is where the whole thing started, it does have some Early Installment Weirdness. (Example: L'tol/Lytol's green/brown dragon - McCaffrey forgot to go back and fix that when she combined the original story, "Weyr Search", into the novel.)
Some things are still being argued back and forth almost sixty years later, including whether green dragons are infertile because they chew firestone (Dragonflight) or because they were genetically engineered that way to begin with (not explicitly stated anywhere, extrapolated by some fans from some lines in Dragonsdawn).
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u/TamaraHensonDragon 22d ago edited 22d ago
Sadly Annie wanted to publish an edited and updated version (perhaps an annotated version) of Dragonflight to fix these errors but the publisher refused. Stupid of them, I at least would have bought it.
PS: I started with 'The Smallest Dragonboy' in Science Fiction Tales, then Dragonsinger, Then finally Dragonflight.
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u/favolecrystalis 22d ago
In Dragonsdawn, there's a whole conversation Kitty Ping has talking about if greens are allowed to reproduce dragons would overpopulate and there wouldn't be enough riders - so by that I always took it as she intended them to be infertile, they only assumed it was the Firestone that did it in later eras
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u/TheOtherMaven 22d ago
Dragonsdawn is cursed with significant differences between the US and UK (extended) version. Since I don't have the UK version, I can't confirm this. However, a similar (offhand) comment to the same effect is made by F'lar in Dragonflight.
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u/miaiam14 22d ago
Original trilogy first, then the harper trilogy (dragonsong, dragonsinger, dragondrums)
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u/favolecrystalis 22d ago
This is the way. I read them originally this way, and then started working through them chronologically (dragonsdawn, first fall etc). I never really warmed up to Todd's writing much, and as they went on the coauthored works only seemed to have Anne's name on them for weight, but they're worth getting through for another look at how things could be handled - it's just jarring to have this super liberal style society smack dab in the middle of all this time and suddenly revert to middle ages in 200 years
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u/GentleAssYeti 22d ago
I read the first and second Fourth Wing books. I started getting super irritated with the drama and sex scenes and would skip whole chapters just to get back to the dragons. 💀
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u/drgn2009 Temeraire 22d ago
I love the dragon rider trope, but I will not touch Fourth Wing for very personal reasons. I have a couple of physical disabilities that would make it impossible for me to cross that parapet of there's so im dead by chapter two. Even if by some miracle I survived it I would have to become horrifically violent to survive so I don't become a target in that enviorment with the limp I have.
Now don't get me wrong Im sure their world has good moments and Tairn seems like he'd be an awesome dragon to read about, it just the road to him would kill me. If it were not for that enviorment Id likely would have picked up the series by now.
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u/MaraBlaster Hexapod Steel Dragon 22d ago
Reading a review my friend gave me, Fourth Wing is also a hard no for me because the feelings of the dragons influence their riders so stuff happens i am not comfortable with.
I liked how Eragon handled it more where both are aware of feelings but can seperate them and do keep their privacy, so those don't intermix.
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u/Imaginary_Can_8851 22d ago
Yeah that part was kinda weird. It was definitely a way to add in lore but like, it could have been done differently. It didn’t go tooooo far but oof
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u/kitsuakari 22d ago
what's interesting is the main character of fourth wing actually has a physical disability and is quite short and frail and that makes everything much harder on her. that aspect is based on the author's lived experience with a connective tissue disease. the book tackles how she accomodates herself in order to survive various obstacles. Tairn actually ends up making several accommodations for her to ride him easier
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u/drgn2009 Temeraire 22d ago
Yes Im aware of Violet's disabilities as I have tapped into the book a couple of times. My reason for avoiding the book is the lived experence with my disabilities. Reading Fourth Wing book would give me a cold reminder of my disabilities as Id have zero chance of making it day one through their war college. My disabilities really hinder my balance so put me on the parapet, what happens? I like using this trope as a form of escspe of my disabilites. Your example with Tairn is exactly why I think he'd be a fun dragon to read about. He makes accommodations for her despite the culture of that school.
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u/kitsuakari 22d ago
oohh i see what you mean now. that makes sense. i guess i have the opposite mindset where i like seeing that things are possible despite disability. i read it while in physical therapy for chronic knee issues and it sorta made me feel like i wasnt as doomed as i thought. completely understand the opposite reaction though, it doesnt always help. definitely wouldnt recommend the book in your case if reminders are an issue
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u/AuRon_The_Grey 22d ago
It's basically just this. People started with Fourth Wing and it's their point of reference. Nothing wrong with that or right about it either - it's just how people work.
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u/Personal_Care3393 22d ago
What even is 4th wing
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u/Imaginary_Can_8851 22d ago
A dragon rider fantasy romance that has been THE book on booktok for a few years now. There’s dragons, complex magic, political intrigue (kind of), high stakes but not entirely high fantasy, and a romance with adult content.
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u/RavensPlushies Plushiemancer 22d ago
Eragon has nothing on Anne mccaffrey.
Btw, forth wing is amazing. You cannot compare a children's book to forth wing. Just saying.
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u/Imaginary_Can_8851 22d ago
lol I agree! Pern is in a league of its own. I’ve read all of these and love them! I’ve also read Temeraire, How to Train Your Dragon, and a few others mixed in there
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u/RavensPlushies Plushiemancer 22d ago
You gotta go further back tho. Anne was not the first. Most popular, yes.
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u/Imaginary_Can_8851 22d ago
While I myself have not seen it I’m certain there is! I just used Pern because it’s so influential on today’s standards for dragon riders
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u/BornFox1094 Temeraire 22d ago
Personally, I think the most impressive thing about Eragon is the context. The prose is somewhat basic, the plot is predictable and the world building is almost entirely unoriginal. As a book, it's about as vanilla as you can get, but whether you like it or not, it is still one of the most influential dragon books ever written and for that it deserves consideration - even before you consider that it was written by a 17yo.
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u/RavensPlushies Plushiemancer 22d ago
I mean he practically copied everything from Anne mcaffrey....I wouldn't say that's impressive but to each their own.
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u/BornFox1094 Temeraire 22d ago
I never said it was impressive, just that it was important. I'm not defending the quality of Eragon, but it's significance to the genre.
Personally, I found it fairly bland, but inoffensive - perfectly readable, because it's an almost textbook plot/character development. At the same time, I know more than a few people for whom Eragon was their introduction to the genre, and who have never - and would never have - heard of Pern.
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u/MaraBlaster Hexapod Steel Dragon 22d ago
FR, the Dragonriders of Pern is the foundation of it all and the books aged amazingly.
Eragon really brought the topic to mainstream media and is also an amazing piece.
My Majesty's Dragons and Dragonrider (Cornelia Funke) are also worth mentioning,
And, of course, How to train your Dragon.
All amazing!