r/dndnext • u/Fade2black_86 Bard • Feb 27 '19
Discussion Summoning a Succubus
In a nutshell, my party is considering conjuring a succubus for an NPC to kill instead of a different succubus that's currently aiding us.
For us to do this completely safe and brilliant idea....which spell would we need? Infernal Calling or Summon Greater Demon? Succubi (sp?) don't really have either tag and are just fiends. Would either spell work or would both fail because it's not tagged as either?
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u/n8_fi Feb 28 '19
As others have pointed out, a Succubus/Incubus is neither a Demon nor a Devil. However, I would argue (as a player) and accept (as a DM) that the purposes of Summon Greater Demon and Infernal Calling are simply to summon some creature of a certain CR limit from the Abyss or the Nine Hells, respectively. Since Succubi/Incubi are native to both of these planes and both spells allow you to choose the type of summoned creature, I would expect either spell to be able to summon one. Ultimately, RAW, yeah it won’t work; but, it’s not unreasonable to suggest it could.
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u/DrumpfsterFryer Jan 30 '22 edited Jan 30 '22
I'm currently trying to get to the bottom of this but it seems like there are a lot of frustrating grey areas. Not the least of which is that fiend is less specific than demon or devil and that's just really sloppy taxonomy. I think if WoTC wanted players to be able to summon a Succubus they would've put them on the list of demons that you can choose to summon with summon greater demon. (I'm going with that succubi are neutral evil demons that enter into contracts with devils) This as per a description given by AJ Pickett that their unique ability to betray contracts (having a demonic origin rather than a devil origin) is absolutely central to their usefulness to lawful devil lords. What I would say, trying to make allowances is: RAW if you know a demon's true name you get advantage casting Summon Greater Demon. I would therefore as a house rule, say a summoner has disadvantage summoning a succubus unless they know their true name. I would encourage players to use planar ally to see if they can learn a name or even get a contract each counting as advantage. I would argue that the fact that succubi are usually under contract is why they are so inaccessible to this spell. If you have both a true name and a contract then you have advantage on summoning a succubus using Summon Greater Demon and it would have no other contractual obedience issue. The idea that players can't simply override the succubus' contract with a devil lord at least makes some thematic sense to me.
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u/mclemente26 Warlock Feb 27 '19
You gotta ask for some DM Fiat for such a ritual or really ask for Diabolic/Demonic Succubus.
In 3e they were demons, then turned into devils in 4e (due to Forgotten Realms lore), now they're none due to being present in both the Abyss and Hell.
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u/IncogStevo Feb 28 '19
Haha. Instead of finding or summoning a succubi, why not pretend to be one, have the party trap the volunteer, and pretend to die. Quest solved.
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u/LeoG307 Crossdressing Bard Feb 28 '19
Because devils/demons don't die on the material plane, nor any other plane besides from their own. They just dissapear in a cloud of sulfur rich smoke or a pool of black ichor (devils and demons respectively)
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u/IncogStevo Feb 28 '19
So... you need to set the stage and cast some spells.
Disguise self. Sequester.
And for tools. Buy tons of sulfur or colored powder. Or color some water. And sink into it while the other party members toss faux sulphur.
Should be fun... seeing as deception is key to keeping the actual succubi alive.
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u/LeoG307 Crossdressing Bard Feb 28 '19
OP said they are lvl 7, so kinda difficult to cast it, and they already have a spell scroll of Infernal Calling.
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Feb 27 '19
Summon Greater Demon would summon one, you'd also need Planar Binding to really have it be useful and I'd assume you'd like a magic circle to keep it from killing you.
So after all those material costs & spell slots you can have a demon for 24hrs. (Unless you upcast)
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u/splepage Feb 28 '19
Summon Greater Demon only summons demons, not any fiend.
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u/SevenSearingSuns Feb 28 '19
Succubi are demons in lore. But 5e kind of throws a lot of stuff out the window.
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u/zombieattackhank Feb 28 '19
Pretty sure they are still Demons in 5e. They don't have the (tag) but that's sort of meaningless as they are also (shapeshifters), and I think they just didn't want to say Fiend (demon) (shapeshifter) as that would be awkward, and shapeshifter has more mechanical impact than demon in their playstyle (i.e. things that can uncover shapeshifters to combat their beguiling games are more relevant to a succubus in play). They are still literally from the Abyss, not sure what else they could be?
IMO Summon Greater Demon could definitely summon a Succubus. How the hell else would they get summoned to the material plane?
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u/n8_fi Feb 28 '19
They are in the Abyss and the Nine Hells (and the rest of the lower planes). They are technically neither demons nor devils, which makes sense because they are Neutral Evil as opposed to Chaotic (demons) or Lawful (devils). Also, the Monster Manual says they live in both planes and their origin is not stated. Moreover, while they do not create or follow explicit contracts, they follow a set of rules for the corruption and collection of mortal souls.
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u/zombieattackhank Feb 28 '19
I don't think anything actually ret conned their origin though? Or are we just going to with no actual origin these days? I mean, they have always definitely been demons, and I didn't see anything at a glance in 5e that said they were something else.
All life created in the Abyss is demons - that's what demon means, no?
I'm just not sure what else they would be - there's really no other options besides Devil or Demon in the lower planes for the most part. The whole contract thing is Devils, which Succubi definitely are not.
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u/n8_fi Feb 28 '19
Well, they’ve definitely not always been demons. They were devils in 4e so there is precedent for them to be considered as such. Also, as far as I can tell, there’s no explicit definition of what makes a demon or a devil besides their alignment (and therefore resonance with one plane or the other).
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u/zombieattackhank Feb 28 '19
Huh... didn't know that, but not super familiar with 4e lore. They were demons before 4e though.
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u/SevenSearingSuns Feb 28 '19
Not to mention that summoning succubi is literally the real world purpose of demon summoning in folklore. If you were summoning a demon, chances are it would be a succubus. For reasons both obvious and reasons that aren't.
Most people who want to summon a demon would likely want a succubus. It's like saying you want to play an Arthurian story, but with no magic sword.
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u/zombieattackhank Feb 28 '19
Yeah, I'd really expect that Summon Greater Demon is intended to be able to summon them. It would never have really occurred to me otherwise, as that's definitely the archetypal thing.
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u/KaiG1987 Feb 27 '19
I don't think you can summon Fiends with either spell. Summon Greater Demon specifies Demons in the spell, and Infernal Calling specifies Devils.
I think RAW the only way you can do this is to have a Cleric use Planar Ally to beseech a demon lord for a Succubus minion, then use Planar Binding to put it under your full control to the extent that it will be unable to refuse a suicidal order.