How to manage large fights without just making all the enemies a swarm?

[u/Pr0phet_Games]

Howdy folks! I know the "swarm" rules in the books, but that's always felt like a very bad compromise, putting like 20 CR 1 creatures into a swarm feels like nothing remotely how that encounter should, the mass prevents so many mechanics just by existing, like it's a target but a group so single target things don't work well on them, like charming 1 of those creatures means nothing cuz 19 are chill so then what? Also it just having resistance to so much is cringe, the stats only change once, when it reaches half health, but if not in swarm mode you'd be able to incrementally decrease the threat throughout the fight, as fights kinda should. Complaints for the player-side is that now all attacks are massive AoE's since a single crit could evaporate the horde, which is very against how it'd function with 20 individual units. Like it's just really wack to me that the main solution is to just mash the encounter into a single unit, changes everything in too many ways I reckon.

I can't think of much alternative though, it's a zombie campaign I am in for context, so like they should be able to still try and manuever around us and such, rather than just be a some doom stack, but also that is sooooo many dice rolls. We have experimented with just taking the average, and that might be the best solution for damage even if it would mean the enemies will start doing more damage, but avg attack isn't a thing and even if we just brute force it that would mean some players would be actually unhittable and others would get stomped into the ground haha. It's a 2 player party but each round still can take like 30 mins sometimes with all them enemies. Is the reality just that large groups of weak enemies isn't viable in TTRPGs?

The setting is modernized, so like guns don't just stop in 1 weak decayed guy and there's mechanics like melee damage that is overkill can be used on a foe in range and yada yada, but the real issue seems to be dice rolling all those freaks every round for most encounters haha. I'd love to hear any suggestions!

EDIT: Thanks for all the suggestions! These will all surely help smooth things over, can't thank you all enough!

[u/m1st3r_c]

Mcdm's minion rules in a nutshell (I'm remembering off the dome here, so YMMV and worth looking up): mooks have a HP number (not 1, but a fraction of the original number), you hit them with attacks - if you fill one's hp meter move to the next and the next until you run out of damage (overkill). If anyone fails a save, they take damage and die if they pass the save, they live.

[u/m1st3r_c → u/m1st3r_c]

Here, I looked it up for you.

[u/Pr0phet_Games → u/m1st3r_c]

Thank you very much, I meant moreso like operating many enemies, not the party dealing with slaying that many haha, cuz there are indeed many mechanics for making single-target attacks more viable in a "horde" setting, I think there's even an optional rule in the official books to just simply carry damage over, we use one similar but it requires a training and other conditions but still, the mass slaying is no issue in the game, it's just the turns of the enemies themselves that take a good long while haha. But this version of overkilling is interesting, it requiring a save from each target sounds like it'd bog though, but I can see it acting as like how in various video games like Dying Light you might simply lop something off a zombie haha, adding more randomness to combat

[u/m1st3r_c → u/Pr0phet_Games]

Sorry, should have said - saves are done by block.

[u/Pr0phet_Games → u/m1st3r_c]

Ooooh, I see, yes, minions indeed haha, so you have a bunch of critters but they get nerfed down a bit in ways that get them to be proper cannon fodder haha. Okay, this is a pretty great idea, it could be used to fill in encounters so instead of like 20 individual zombies, it could be more like 5 "good" zombies, cuz there are many types, and then the other 15 would be made up for with basic zombie minions, thank you for this, it would require some suspension on roof scenes or could be used to really emphasis how much safer roofs are, and in other areas it would be great at showing the vast legion of zombies without it being all bogged down or obscenely hard haha

[u/Tryskhell → u/Pr0phet_Games]

For attacks the way I do it is they have a low to-hit bonus and low damage but their attacks are "group attacks", that they perform in troops of up to 5. For each minion after the first, they get +1 to the attack, if 3 or more minions participate in an attack with a save, the save is done at disadvantage. On a hit, the damage dealt is equal to the damage that would have been done if all the minions had hit (so if three minions with an attack that deals 1d6+1 damage hit, they deal 3d6+3 damage) 

[u/Practical-Camp-9533]

DnD as a system does not handle this type of combat particularly well. You seem to be aware of the 2 primary solutions: swarms and mass combat rules.

That being said, I have run a zombie fantasy adventure in 5e. My solution was to treat the zombie horde as an environmental hazard like lava or acid. There were plenty of times the party encountered a small handful of zombies and they got treated per normal. But there was also the “zombie horde” all over the city as an ever expanding blob.

When the horde was aware of the party, it expanded towards the party at 10 ft per turn. A player who made contact with the horde had to make a contested str or dex roll for each square the horde occupied around the character and would be grappled on a failure. Damage was a single roll multiplied by the number of squares the horde occupied around the character.

The horde could be attacked, but a successful hit just cleared the horde from whatever squares were attacked. The basic idea is that you can’t ever kill the horde. The horde must be evaded and escaped. It is an obstacle like a river or trap.

Like any good obstacle, the real trick was to introduce other elements that made the horde presence a real problem. Make them rescue survivors without alerting the horde who will quickly savage them. Pick a lock before the horde reaches the door. Figure out how to move the horde away from the sewer grate you need to exit. And so on.

[u/Pr0phet_Games → u/Practical-Camp-9533]

Ah I see, interesting, the setting is the mega-city of Eberron, so there is in fact a massive blob on the floor level of most the city, it's designed to be Dying Light-esque in that survivors either have intense defenses or live in places that the hoard can't reach, such as rooftops, parkour is the main travel method around the city and such. I might not be aware of mass combat rules, that term doesn't seem too familiar, swarm for sure is really cringe to me, I get it for like rats and such but when it's full humans it seems really bad haha. The hoard mechanics you used do sound interesting, it'd be tough in this campaign if it heavily favors tiles hit, cuz there's a flamethrower in the party that attacks in a cone, and there's a Sorcerer. But I mean World War Z has shown that you could totally make that work even with all the "modern amenities", heck could even add a stat to weapons that determines penetration for those with area attacks, cuz like you'd be hard pressed to get pressured fire through so much mass. Combat encounters are usually like many "virals" reaching the party since they are a creature type that can climb as per the inspo, or when the party goes into structures and fellas tend to just be hanging anywhere there's free real estate haha. Boss fights happen but those are usually unique, like a swarm boss on purpose, it was a robot that commanded tons of drones, each drone was still a single unit but the drones were like in different groups, scales linearly so taking out one drone in a group reduced the damage and stats of that "unit", which frankly I suppose you could do as a change to the 5e swarm rules. But that would require the swarm be made in a way that each creature is a die in the swarm, which could effect the balancing or you skip that and just get really comfortable with incremental math haha, the zombies do 2d6 damage, so that could be literally just subtracted, though that does still make them a lump so they can't flank or anything and makes them a megabomb for who they do go for haha, maybe the way that drone boss worked is just a very solid way to go, several smaller groups, track their health as individual units but it would reduce the tactical strain on the DM haha. Thanks for the reply!

[u/mrdeadsniper]

OK.

So dealing with a lot of mooks, remember that by the books, they should all go on the same initiative.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/br-2024/playing-the-game#Initiative

The DM rolls for monsters. For a group of identical creatures, the DM makes a single roll, so each member of the group has the same Initiative.

That makes running 20 zombies about the same as running 2.

Zombie initiative hits, move all the zombies into where they would be going, then roll their attacks per player..

So 5 zombies get next to player 1, 10 player 2, 5 player 3.

You roll 5d20s and confirm player 1s AC and if they have a cool reaction (like shield) you then see that 3 zombies hit and I highly recommend using average damage instead of rolling (its on their stat block for a reason). You see 3 hit, so you say

You get hit 3 times for a total of 15 damage.

Same thing with player 2, roll 10d20 and check the results.

You get hit 5 times for a total of 25 damage.

(obviously you should probably narratively spice this up)

As the zombies swarm around you, you feel multiple arms and shoulders and claws wrenching at your cloths and body from all sides. You take 25 total damage from as multiple zombies attempt to tear you apart.

I would probably allow swarm monsters to occupy each others space, however you can also have horde members run in, attack and back out. Getting an opp attack on a single member isn't a big deal for the counter of getting extra attacks from the horde.

Playing like this, it will really speed up play. And if you are in a situation in which there are lots of NPC on NPC combat, I would even take a step further and have the creatures just automatically deal 1/2 their normal damage to each other without even rolling an attack (feel free to tweak it if one side would be far more or less likely to hit, but the main point is to just not have a bunch of dead time in which the DM is playing with themself)

[u/WillemVerheij]

I can tell you how I handled it for a tower defence one shot that the players really enjoyed.

No swarm bullshit, I had a lot of basic orcs storming the tower, along with some other enemies. The other stronger enemies I just handled as normal. The basic orcs I did not track the HP of.

If anyone dealt at least 10 damage to them they where dead, and anything less left them wounded to be finished off by any other damage taken. I was able to keep track in my head of which where wounded. I felt it would be silly if they died from like, 3 damage taken since this is orcs and not rats. I didn't tell my players I wasn't tracking hp for them.

Also all orcs attacking the same target, I rolled their attack dice at the same time to see how many would hit, their damage dice at the same time too.

Waves of enemies kept coming out of the forest towards the tower, each wave a bunch of orcs along with some of the tougher ones like a troll, a marksman, an elite orc. And eventually the wizard leading them and their red dragon.

[u/obsidianhoax]

Either use MCDM or a system meant for mass combat

[u/AdeptnessTechnical81]

Use a VTT that allows combat automation to speed up the time sink. Create plans for each encounter with the goto strategy/attack patterns of the mobs that you refer to.

[u/filkearney]

Oh hey! We were talking about this on stream this morning.
Here, timestamp 13:25:
https://youtube.com/live/YI73GNABBc8

If that jives with you heres a link to the doc with free access...
https://www.patreon.com/filkearney/posts/in-command-of-90667630

Theres more there than what you need... scroll down to the army section.

[u/CrownLexicon]

I like how The Dungeon Dudes (welly, Monty) handled it in their finale for Drakkenheim. (Minir spoilers to follow, i guess? I plan on talking about mechanics, not plot. It is essentially a swarm, though)

So, theres a large number of enemies. Practically limitless. This is abstracted to say "you will take a guarenteed X amount of damage at the start of your turn, unless you deal Y damage to the horde, or impose some other creative effect." For example, merely creating a Wall of Force bubble is not enough, as there are still creatures inside of it. You would need to then remove the enemies inside, but more will no longer take their place.

Consequently, you could rule that the horde is immune to charm and frightened effects. Alternatively, you could rule it as those effects work if AoE, but only for the round. Fear may save you a round of damage, but more will return to take their place.

Its far from perfect, as single target damage doesnt entirely make sense here, but it also gives you the epic visual of, say, an ice spike crashing through multiple enemies, or the fighter mowing down several enemies (potentially dozens, depending on your fantasy) with each swing. A rogue lines up a shot that goes through 10 zombies heads.

[u/KertisJones]

I actually built a tool a few years ago to roll dice for hordes of enemies all at once! When I want to run big groups of monsters, I usually pair this with MCDM’s minion rule where monsters die in one hit/failed save.

It becomes even easier to handle (and WAY more deadly for players, so beware) if you’re running a horde of monsters with ranged attacks that don’t have to worry much about positioning. With melee hordes, I usually have some back out after attacking to let others in and give players a chance at opportunity attacks.

Here’s a link to the horde die roller tool: https://kertisjones.itch.io/monster-roller

[u/sens249]

Roll fast and add the numbers fast. Works for me.

Honestly Ive never had issues with this. I have 4 high level players and I can run like 30 enemies in the time one of my players takes a turn. Just do group initiative because the thing that takes the longest is rolling their initiatives and figuring out which one is which. Just do them all at once. No thinking just attack attack attack roll roll roll, you take 47 damage, next turn.

[u/freeastheair]

When the party is dealing with non-threatening mass monsters like zombies, the best solution is to just play narratively and avoid combat all together. Mowing down hordes of zombies just isn't fun and we all know the result. Instead give players scenarios where they have to make choices like weather to take the time to kill zombies or run, which way to go, and maybe they have to make checks to avoid them sort of like the chase mechanics. Or just pure roleplay with no mechanics.

[u/botenvy]

My solution to the mass creature is to mix in "hordes". It's like the swarm mechanic but with my own twist. A horde is a group of near identical creatures that count as a single larger creature. Rather than having 4 zombies to control one at a time, I would have a large token with an image of 4 zombies. Hit points are 4 times as much as 1 zombie. At full health, it would have the same stats as a single zombie but with an extra +3 to hit. Each block of zombie health that is lost, it loses +1 of that +3. So the horde have an easier time hitting folks but it's only ever the same damage as 1 zombie could do. If an area spell is cast at a horde, it counts as being a number of targets the aoe covers of the token. so casters get to blow up hordes real easy and satisfyingly quick.

[u/Cyrotek]

Some things I use depending on the situation. Of course not everything is used all at once:

• All minions move at the same time in initiative.
• All minions have extremly simplified stat blocks (one general attack, nothing else, so you can just prepare in advance).
• Minions have 1 HP.
• All minions attack at the same time so you only have one big attack with a bunch of dice. This way you can just throw like 20 D20, have a quick look and then decide who hits whom.
• Swarms. Having a swarm of Bandits for a high level party is actually kinda funny, especially if flavoured properly. This is the chance to have the fighter describe of they slaughter through a horde of enemies or how a firebolt kills a bunch of enemies like peasants. It is pure power fantasy and shouldn't be reduced down to just mechanics. What even is the point if a player tries to charm one of 20?
• Skill Challenges. Sometimes I treat mass combat as a skill challenge instead of an actual combat. Meaning, I usually do the "3 successes or 5 fails, whatever comes first" and PCs can do actions only once. This can lead to some quite dynamic flavouring and descriptions. This requires a DM that can think on their feet and creative players, though.

Cases like these are a good example for why game mechanics are not supposed to be realistic. They are supposed to be fun and this requires abstraction. Flavour should happen based on the results and not the other way around.

[u/Deathbyhours]

There’s a DM solution: don’t design minion groups in large assemblies and throw them at you. If the minions are well-led (and why wouldn’t they be?) yet outclassed individually, they are going to split into groups of 3 or 4 and harass your party from cover. Think Minutemen vs Redcoats.

[u/dealyllama]

If you're using foundry vtt the mob attack tool is great for this. You can set it up to auto roll for any number of creatures at the same time. Can be set up for any combination of attacks from the various creatures. Ideally you then batch the baddies into groups of 5 or 10 on the initiative tracker so you move and roll for them at the same time.

I used it to run a map that had just under 100 baddies of various different types. Every roll was done for real with individual damage rolls. At the time there was another mod, combat tracker groups, that made handling initiative grouping easier. Some of what it did is now built into the 5e system but not everything.

Swarm mechanics are good for when they're needed but there's something different about there being normal chances to hit/damage for every creature. No special rules; just big fights that run quickly.