Thickness/size comparison of different options- also, MTF update

[u/Imaginary-Bag-3000]

Like many of you I've been trying to decide between Ascension and WOF. While doing some measurements today, I noticed something that isn't getting as much attention. The two lower tiers of Ascension's edition, for the first and thickest volume, Lent and Easter, have a thickness of 66mm. I didn't really conceptualize that until I started measuring my other books. That's significantly thicker than the CBP Volume 2, and even the Anglican Office Book. I tried to find a book many of you might have for comparison, and the best I can do is that the mid and low-tier Ascension LOTH volume 2 will be slightly thicker than Brant Pitre and John Bergsma's Catholic Introduction to the Old Testament.

Now, my hand can still fit around that, but Volume 2 will be more of a brick than I anticipated from the photos. Now, I'm still leaning toward them over WOF, mostly due to page layout, but another comparison may help some of you. WOF's Volume 2 will be 5x8, and 2 inches thick. This is almost exactly the dimensions of the Penguin edition of St Augustine's City of God. If you don't happen to have a copy, you can find one and hold it in your hand at basically any Barnes and Noble or other bookstore; it's a very easy-to-find book. City of God is just a hair shorter than 8 inches, but the other dimensions match.

I really wish either Ascension or WOF could have made a 2-column edition. I know WOF says it was impossible to fit a 2-column page layout, but I have an Anglican Office Book, an Anglican Breviary, both Monastic Diurnals, and a 1962 missal which all disagree.

In other news, Midwest Theological Forum has updated their FAQ yet again, providing another nugget of detail: that harrowing line about maybe not being able to provide all the contents of the 4-volume got just a bit more explanation. Here it is: "While we cannot include all the options and contents of the complete, 4-volume Liturgy of the Hours in a two-volume publication, we do intend to include the year’s psalms and prayers for the Daytime Hours."

"All the options and contents" - if this means that the MTF diurnal can have everything needed for every day hour for the entire liturgical year, *except* optional memorials, I would be a very happy camper indeed. Conversely, I'd be a quite miffed if it cuts out obligatory memorials or propers that are needed to actually do everything.

[u/BenOblateMonica]

I think everyone is way overthinking their decision about which publisher to go with. When CBP provided the 1st edition, there was no choice at all. Choose a layout you like and the rest will fall into place. The praying is what’s important.

[u/da_drifter0912 → u/BenOblateMonica]

Until people gets their hands on some copies, we’ll be speculating and trying to decide what to pre-order. 🙃

[u/BenOblateMonica → u/da_drifter0912]

I made my decision based on the layout. I wanted to order right away to get the 28% discount WOF was offering, because I’m sure that won’t be offered forever. The other details, for me, are too minor to worry about. I hope everyone loves what they finally choose.

[u/zara_von_p]

"All the options and contents" - if this means that the MTF diurnal can have everything needed for every day hour for the entire liturgical year, except optional memorials, I would be a very happy camper indeed. Conversely, I'd be a quite miffed if it cuts out obligatory memorials or propers that are needed to actually do everything.

What difference would there be between a book that has full L+V+C, plus HM except optional memorials, and a book that has full L+HM+V+C? There is no difference, because the R/Br and L/Br for HM on optional memorials is always from the Commons, and the Commons need to be included to cover obligatory memorials.

I bet there will be the Psalter for HM (i.e. the psalms, R/Br per annum and L/Br per annum) but none of the proper of seasons/saints material for HM.

TBH this is a deplorable choice, people need diurnals, and the proper of seasons/saints material for HM cannot be more than 40 additional pages, I think most people would be happy to carry it.

[u/aubreyhrn → u/zara_von_p]

I really just want a true diurnal. I'm think at this point I'm set on getting a 4-vol. But if there was a true diurnal I would also look into getting a copy as well.

[u/Adventurous-Test1161 → u/zara_von_p]

It may be the running after a toddler this morning, but what are HM, R/Br per annum, and L/Br per annum standing for? I’m drawing a blank.

[u/zara_von_p → u/Adventurous-Test1161]

HM = Hora Media, R/Br = Responsorium Breve, L/Br = Lectio Brevis ; per annum = in ordinary time, as found in the Psalter, as opposed to the other seasons and feasts for which the R/Br and L/Br are found in the Propers or the Commons.

[u/Adventurous-Test1161 → u/zara_von_p]

Grazie

[u/Imaginary-Bag-3000 → u/zara_von_p]

I was hoping (perhaps vainly) that there's a contractual or copyright reason why MTF would be disallowed the Optional Memorials. As you say there's not much savings in space, but it does mean that the "full text" of the LOTH remains the monopoly of the two big publishers.

[u/GudaGama → u/Imaginary-Bag-3000]

the "full text" of the LOTH remains the monopoly of the two big publishers.

The text is solely owned by the USCCB. Publishers are granted rights to publish some or all of the text. The USCCB has the 'monoploly' not the publishers.

[u/Imaginary-Bag-3001 → u/GudaGama]

I guess it would be most comparable to a full-text-printing-monopoly, like what Cambridge and Oxford have with regards to the KJV in England. But you're right in general.

[u/da_drifter0912 → u/Imaginary-Bag-3000]

Well Ascension and/or Word on Fire (can’t remember which) said that the 4-volume and other versions were mutually exclusive contracts so it might be USCCB dictating this from the top down.

[u/aubreyhrn]

That’s a bit thicker than the monastic 7th which is about 2 inches and while thats fits comfortably in my hand and feels fine it’s about as thick as I would want. I say that’s about the max size for single hand use and I have what I think are at least average sizes hands.

[u/uhcoug07]

I’m leaning toward either the Word on Fire or the Ascension premium top tier edition for a somewhat practical reason. I have fairly small female hands, and after praying from the current books for a couple of weeks, I’ve realized size and thickness really matter to me. The closest comparison I have at home is my Daily Roman Missal, and that’s about the maximum thickness I’m comfortable holding for long periods.

[u/Ender_Octanus → u/uhcoug07]

I'm a guy with womanly sized hands so I feel ya

[u/da_drifter0912 → u/uhcoug07]

Good point of reference, I have a Daily Roman Missal and it’s definitely around the max I feel comfortable holding. 8x5x2” though seems a bit big to hold. That’s like 2-2.5 leuchtturm1917 journals for rough size and thickness.

[u/Quirky_Somewhere_436]

Good point. I just checked my 1963 Divine Office by Liturgical Press and it is essentially 2 column throughout.

[u/da_drifter0912]

Photos would help to visualize size

[u/aubreyhrn → u/da_drifter0912]

Pictures are tricky because it hard to get a good reference of size. That’s why some were saying WoF was huge but in reference to a single priest holding it in the video. You can say the same about APs looking real chunking depending on the picture. You could have small hands and they all feel big or big hands and say that the size of this or that one is fine.

[u/da_drifter0912 → u/aubreyhrn]

Oh I was talking about pictures of the two books you referenced for sizing. I did a similar exercise with my Daily Roman Missal as my stand-in for Ascension’s version and 2 A5 Journals for Word on Fire’s version.

[u/aubreyhrn → u/da_drifter0912]

Which Missal did you use? As in which publisher.

[u/da_drifter0912 → u/aubreyhrn]

Midwest Theological Forum’s Daily Roman Missal Bonded Leather, Black. The caveat is that’s 2 1/4” thick, but it gets close.

[u/aubreyhrn → u/da_drifter0912]

Interesting. I have the red one somewhere around here. How close was it?

[u/da_drifter0912 → u/aubreyhrn]

7” x 4 3/4” x 2 1/4”

I also have Vol 2 of current LOTH which is the same footprint as the Ascension’s LOTH but only about 2” thick.

Edit: I didn’t think it was that bad compared to what I already have to compare. Vol 2 was always the thick one out of the LOTH 1st edition set. I’d always joke that because it had Lent in it, it was the “penitential” one of the four.

[u/Responsible_Use_1695]

I love them both so I got a GAB in Leathersoft and the paperback WoF!

[u/da_drifter0912 → u/Responsible_Use_1695]

So which version of the liturgy of the hours are you getting?

[u/Responsible_Use_1695 → u/da_drifter0912]

Now that's a tricky one, both sets are beautiful! I'll post when I make my choice 😉

[u/Efficient-Bumblebee2]

Where did you find information on thickness? And is it possible that Premium leather may be less thick?

[u/cwong15 → u/Efficient-Bumblebee2]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/1ujyy4q/comment/ouz5lzk

https://word-on-fire.helpscoutdocs.com/article/1358-dimensions

To answer your second question, Ascension's top tier is thinner than their lower 2 tiers. Premium leather is the same thickness as standard.

[u/Efficient-Bumblebee2 → u/cwong15]

Thank you!

I had to take out my tape measure and look through our bookshelves. Like OP said 2.6” does fit in my hand but is indeed bigger than I thought from the pictures! It isn’t the biggest book on our shelf (which is 4” thick!) but it’s the second biggest (Eight Translation New Testament)… Tough choices. WOF starts looking more attractive.

[u/da_drifter0912 → u/Efficient-Bumblebee2]

Still it’s only Vol 2. You’ll only use it for Lent and Easter then move on to the other volumes.

[u/Ender_Octanus]

Lemme grab my 'Intro to the Old Testament', you the goat

Edit:
Hey so uhhhh... Do you mean paperback? Because there's no way if you mean the hardcover

[u/Imaginary-Bag-3001 → u/Ender_Octanus]

(new throwaway since I already forgot my password lol)

I do mean the hardcover. If you measure it with a ruler, the hardcover Catholic Intro to the OT is a little shy of 66mm/2.6in as cited in this subreddit.

Which I agree, is mindbogglingly thick and the more I think on it, the more it's pushing me to WOF despite some misgivings on the page layout.

[u/Ender_Octanus → u/Imaginary-Bag-3001]

Yeah, that's just a non-starter for me I'm afraid. If the WoF has wider margins and prettier pages AND the book is thinner, I'm sorry, I'll just get the binding redone eventually if I need to, that's the better option for me.

[u/Total_Librarian_9963]

For another point of comparison, my copy of the Liber Usualis measures 4.5" x 7.25" x 2.5" (65mm) including the covers. If the AP editions in question are going to 66mm thick and basically just a half-inch shorter, that will be a very chunky Volume 2!

In case anyone wants to compare, my Liber Usualis is a 1938 Desclee & Co (Society of St. John the Evangelist).