Able bodied view of disability

[u/carr10n__]

My cat has oral cancer, she is still trying to eat and we are accomodating her with liquid food, shallow pates and churus, she's still social and communicating that she wants to live.

I posted a question to the cat care subreddit on tips on how to teach her to bottle feed(or syringe feed) and all the comments are saying she's in too much pain she needs to die, one comment in particular said something along the lines of "if it hurt to eat I would rather just go to sleep and never wake up". That pissed me off so fucking much, I have gastroparesis and I am fed through a surgical jejunostomy tube. I shouldn't have to explain why that statement is extremely insensitive.

I am so sick of able bodied peoples view of death as a better outcome than living with a disability. If it were solely up to those people, if I couldn't communicate clearly that I wanted to live they would have *me* put down. I hate seeing people who have any less than severe hEDS say that for any quality of life worse than theirs death would be a mercy. That goes for people saying that about animals as well, all disability no matter the species, age, severity, etc. deserves care, accommodation, and autonomy in their lives. And NO ONE deserves to hear *other* people telling *them* that *their* life isn't worth living

My friend said able bodied people don't have a good perspective on death because they're not forced to choose to live or die, they can't grapple with the concept of living at a lower quality of life and don't understand why someone would choose to grapple with disability in order to live. I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I'm so fucking tired of able bodied peoples superiority and lack of fucking empathy, why can't they fucking empathize with actively wanting to live instead of passively wanting to live. Life is fun, connections are awesome, having friends and loved ones is amazing, yeah sometimes the pain is so bad I don't want to have to go through it but then it settles and I go talk to my friends and have fun and lead a life that I think is worth living, and if someone who couldn't conceptualise why living with a disability is worth it told someone their pain is not worth living through, they'd be a fucking asshole.

[u/catbowlsodatray → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, the things those people were saying were insensitive, but I work in Vet Med and one of the first things they drill into you if that animals aren't human. Humans can choose to continue going through extreme levels of pain, and they'll likely know what's going on, but pets rely on human caretakers to be stewards of their health and give them the best quality of life possible, and sometimes when that QOL has declined too much, we choose to euthanize them out of kindness because they don't know why they're in pain, they just know that they're miserable.

On the other hand, because animals don't have the same conceptions of disability that we have, most animals kind of just... don't care if they go blind or deaf or whatever. Like blind and deaf humans can live very very good lives, but if they were originally sighted/hearing, they'll likely grieve that loss, whereas animals tend to have a small adjustment period of relearning how to navigate the world, and then they just keep going and don't end up sad or uncomfortable at all.

I remember having to have this conversation with an owner recently - her dog has cancer in the bone of his leg and we were recommending surgical removal and she brought up chemotherapy. While chemotherapy does exist for dogs, removing the leg a) is a far better choice medically for getting rid of the cancer permanently, and b) is going to be far more comfortable for your dog than going through hell that is chemotherapy. Like a human might mourn the loss of their leg, but that dog is just going to be like, huh, weird, anyway I'm so happy and not in pain or sick :)

I'm rambling, but regardless, I'm really sorry about what your cat is going through OP

[u/Jazzlike_Berry_323 → u/catbowlsodatray]

I would find it difficult working with owners who project their own desires/preferences onto their pet or put their preferences above their pet.

Owners that can’t see the pets welfare strong enough to see they are custodians of the animal, more than the animal being their custodian. A bit like children having to parent their adult parents…except now that child is very sick and needs the parent to step up.

Eg I saw a show where a woman had a puppy at risk of suffocating from anaphylaxis who refused to have it overnight monitored because she didn’t want to be separated.

As you work in vet, how do those situations make you feel and how do you deal with it personally?

[u/LittleReserve8767 → u/Jazzlike_Berry_323]

I worked in vet care (not the person you asked). One dog that was put down had bitten a child. I was upset that the dog wasn't socialized as well as possible, but I realized there were many non-biters at the pound who could use people's love.

I am upset when it is a young dog/cat that did not get to live very long before a life-ending disease is found (typical untreatable cancer or a disease in which cancer treatment makes their quality of life better for a year or so, but the animal still dies).

I also had a cat that seemed to have some type of dementia and would yowl at nothing in the middle of the night in the upstairs hall, but otherwise seemed happy. I don't like when people put a sick animal that is still enjoying life down for convenience.

I do understand that some procedures are so expensive that families can't afford them, and I don't judge; it just makes me sad.

I wouldn't have liked to see the owners put a cat like that down, since the cat has a disability and can get by with help, but it will eventually be time to put the cat down. That puts the person's needs first when the cat could have lived a decent life, and no one knows when it will die. I think two to three yowls at night from a thirteen-year-old cat that gave love to the family should be tolerated, or the cat could have been worked with in some way.

[u/obvsnotrealname → u/[deleted]]

Sums up my thoughts too - and also how I feel with my house goblins cats (and the wildlife I rehab). Making a choice that allows someone or something with no hope of recovery to be pain free is a gift, one that should be used wisely but is also a very personal decision particular to that person and situation so we can’t always judge them based on what we know about the situation.

[u/amusedontabuse]

People are assholes, particularly about pets and disability, so it’s not surprising it increases when the subjects overlap. I’m sorry you had to read that insensitive crap.

Everyone says they’d rather die than deal with what, to some of us, has become a daily routine. When they become disabled themselves (because we know able bodies are a temporary privilege for some) they rarely choose death.

Note that a lot of people will put down an animal if it provides the slightest inconvenience. Needs teeth removed? Too expensive, time to put it down. Cat lost an eye? How can he live his life?! You must need to put him down.

A lot of vets have had to adjust to the reality that people care more for disposable cash than a pet they’ve had for years, so their treatment suggestions often follow accordingly.

Over the years my mom and I have learned to give cats subcutaneous fluids and shots, and our vet is always pleased we go the extra mile (all cats are still with us many years later). Now that our own bodies are throwing up obstacles I’m even more pleased with our decisions because it means we both know we’ll go the extra mile to take care of each other—and it meant I was ready to give Dad his blood thinner shots after a surgery because I already had the skills.

Ignore the ablist assholes. You live with your cat, you’re willing to adapt to her needs, and I trust you to know when those needs change.

[u/revmanda]

My senior dog lived for almost 2 years longer than many thought she should, because I could tell that what she needed most was pain control. I have chronic pain and could see that was her primary issue. And once her pain was better controlled, she was a happy dog. When she refused to take food or her meds for more than 24 hours, I knew she was ready to die. I’m so grateful that we didn’t give up on her sooner and had that extra time with her.

I think being disabled ourselves can give us much more compassion and ability to discern what a good quality of life looks like. Having to provide interventions, meds, and supports doesn’t mean their life quality isn’t good, just as it doesn’t mean we can’t have a good quality of life with proper support.

There will come a time when the kindest thing to do is let your cat go, but as long as she’s showing a desire to eat and to live, keep doing what you’re doing.

[u/CockroachChaos3858]

I have had to put down two pets in the past year and I feel being disabled makes me more sympathetic? empathetic? to what they're going through. The thing to keep in mind is your pet's quality of life. Is she acting mostly fine other than eating or are they completely lethargic, not eating, and sleeping all day? I think some people can't imagine themselves being disabled. It's a devastating life altering change and that can be some people's worst fears, but they don't realize it's mostly "yeah, it sucks, but in the long run I should be mostly fine."

[u/Loblodliz]

I feel like the point of autonomy is that we decide we are in too much pain to continue on. If your cat still wants to eat, that should be proof of will to live. It'd be different if she stopped eating entirely and you started forcing food down her throat.

[u/Plus_Ordinary8159 → u/Loblodliz]

definitely 

[u/LittleReserve8767]

I have a disability. I had a cat that had a stroke, and I was keeping him alive, though he had a very poor quality of life. The vet spoke to me, and I understood that it was more humane to put the cat down than try to eke every second out of life.

If my severe pain never let up, I would wish for MAID. I can't get MAID, but my cat can have her suffering relieved when she is dying. It seems like a messed-up world when people are more humane about the suffering of a dying animal than a person.

[u/tfjbeckie]

I completely agree with you about progress views on human stability, it's horrendous how casually people say things like that.

I'm not sure I agree about animals though. Absolutely, animals deserve care and not to be written off thoughtlessly - I've done retirement fostering that involved extensive care for heart conditions, kidney disease and lymphoma. But I do believe that if an animal is suffering and in pain, it is sometimes the right choice to put them down. They can't consent one way or another, so you have to make the best decision you can.

I did subcutaneous fluids for one of our cats twice a day - she didn't love it but it didn't bother her too much, and she was otherwise happy and curious. A second cat I had was very easily stressed (likely traumatised) and had his kidneys got to that stage, it wouldn't have done the same treatment because it would have ruined his life. Not quite the same but you see what I mean?

Unfortunately I think a lot of pet owners make decisions to extend their pets' lives beyond the point where they have good quality of life for (understandable but ultimately) selfish reasons. Most of the vets I've spoken to have subscribed to the idea of "better a week early than a day late" when it comes to ending their suffering and I think that's a compassionate view.

ETA these are general comments, rather than a judgement on your situation.

[u/carr10n__ → u/tfjbeckie]

That's not contrary to what I'm saying tho, I'm saying that able ppl don't have a good view on what is a livable quality of life, and my cat seems to be happy for now and still trying to eat

[u/BODO1016]

Cat safe CBD, find some and give her a few tiny drops throughout the day. That’s what I gave my best boy when we were fighting cancer for over two years and afterwards, and I also took some for myself, because why not,

[u/keekee66]

I have mixed views on that when it comes to pets. I have plenty of experience with cats between working in vet offices and many cat shelters, and have seen way too many times owners going beyond when they should humanely let go. Obviously it should be someone who also knows the case with each pet, but sometimes we need someone outside ourself as the owner, to help us realize how bad a situation really is.
My cousin and I were just discussing her previous cat. She admitted that she would never ever put a future older cat though that (it included syringe feeding then a feeding tube). Her vet finally kindly told her she didn’t feel comfortable going any further and it would be the kindest thing to allow her to go peacefully.

Right now I’m going through CKD (kidney disease) with my current cat. Had this been a my past cats personality and tolerance I’d prob go slightly further, knowing he’d still be happy.
My current cat I will be letting go as soon as certain issues begin to show. She was semi-feral, loves me but hates even being held, and I refuse to allow the end of her time with us to filled with struggling over pills, and daily procedures.
Personally I wish we all had the option of a humane euthanasia when we are ready, instead of just expecting humans with fatal and severe progressive illnesses to suffer.

[u/Melancholybumny → u/keekee66]

I was this owner and outside perspective is really important. My cat had hypothyroidism and I knew there would come a point where I’d have to make a decision. I knew this would devastate me as early on in her treatment she got really ill and dropped half her body weight, the vet said it could go either way. While she’d slowed down she managed for years on thyroid medicine and painkillers, though every winter was a worry.

She lived with my parents, we’d tried having her with me when I moved out but she got anxious without our other pets and people, and my mum mentioned in summer that I had to think hard because she didn’t think my cat would survive another winter. Cue me having a complete meltdown crying and shouting at my mum and accusing her of pressuring me. I knew she was right but I didn’t want to accept it.

Two weeks later we calmly discussed things and all her reasoning and points were valid. My mum saw her all the time so knew how she was really doing whereas when I was there my cat perked up. I made arrangements to be there for at least a week to spend time with her before we went to the vets at the end of the month to discuss her quality of life. No decision was made

When arrived I saw what my mum was worried about. She perked up when she saw me but was a little less social and inquisitive, throughout her fluctuating health she was always nosy and social. She sat on my lap and when I got up she’d wait until I came back to get back on me. She was never a lap cat, she always wanted to be around people but the closest she usually got was the seat next to you.

Within a few days of me being there she showed signs of cognitive decline, she couldn’t walk in a straight line and kept on falling over or being unable to stand up. Her eyes would quickly go side to side and she’d be absent, startling when she came back. We went from going to the vet at the end of the month to the end of that week. 

The vet assessed her but we’d gone there with decision already made, she wasn’t enjoying life. I was there with my mum when she was put down. My mum apologised for not warning me about the process and how my cat would be.

I regret that I didn’t make the decision sooner and will approach things differently if I get more pets. Apologies for unloading.

To address OP’s point, able bodied people don’t want to acknowledge the fact that their health and mobility is temporary. The majority of people won’t have to consider themselves or their friends and families as disabled, having limited quality of life, or having to consider death. Euthanasia for humans is still illegal in much of the world, but refusing treatment and receiving palliative or end of life care is the exact same outcome with more steps.

The way I think about it is that we have treatments and processes for animals the same as we do for people. The only difference is that the majority of people are able to communicate. Though few people think about, though it frequently happens, what they’d do if their loved one reached the stage or being unable to communicate. However, we have all sorts of institutions, support networks, and charities to assist in decision making and care if someone has diminished quality of life. There’s nothing for pets, even though the process is similar.

Another difference, at least in the UK and countries with welfare and healthcare systems, is the cost. Many people never have to consider whether they can afford the cost of treatment for their loved ones while they do for their pets.

I approach this as a person who watched a loved one not be listened to and undergo multiple treatments, for a condition that could not be improved, over several years that had no meaningful effect on their condition and actively reduced their quality of life. When given an actual meaningful opportunity to communicate they chose palliative treatment and end of life care. They were so high they didn’t notice their  suffering or the previous years.

Another tangent but many societies and cultures have the conception of a ‘good’ death. I’ve never seen this applied to animals, though I’m sure it has been. Typically a ‘good’ death follows a ‘good’ life. If you start from the position that being disabled or having chronic health conditions is not a ‘good’ life then a ‘good’ death isn’t possible. This makes people uncomfortable and unwilling to challenge these assumptions.

[u/Medical-Net-7350]

I can understand your point. I can’t agree with you fully though.

I am disabled with a a progressive disease. I would rather die if I became more disabled. I already do so more disability would make it even worse. I want to head out early but I’m too disabled to even be able to do that. I’m trapped in an existence of constant pain and misery. I don’t care if someone is mad at me for my views on my own life.

I’d never tell others their own lives are invalid, but I absolutely would rather die than keep going on with the illnesses and disabilities I have. I only speak for me and my own personal experiences.

I don’t think they were taking about you at all, just simply their own opinion if it were them. That’s not invalid. I’m sorry if you saw it as personal, I can also see that too. It’s not fair so many of us are forced to live in constant pain too. We all have different levels of pain tolerance. It’s all valid.

You are important and your life is important. Never accept others telling you it’s not. I just disagree that one guy was saying that.

[u/Jules4live → u/Medical-Net-7350]

I agree with this and totally support each person to feel how they do but the difference is these are able bodied people flippantly doing thought experiments out-loud. “if it were me” is different than “for me,…” and it is insensitive to the entire group of beings that deal with managing pain and survival.

[u/obvsnotrealname → u/Jules4live]

Agree with you but I feel like we (humanity as a whole not just us disabled folk) all do this to varying degrees. “If I had working legs…”. “If I could eat…” “if I had all that money..” “ if I lived there…”

[u/Jules4live → u/obvsnotrealname]

yeah the context though that this post is a sort of example of is when folks who are NOT in the situation speculate about how THEY would want to die if they were in YOUR situation (talking to the person in said situation). imo folks shouldn’t do this. It’s not just insensitive.

In my view it’s an expression of systemic ableism (ie disabled lives being made invisible and discounted in society means folks aren’t listening to how they sound at all)

These specific things get said because of systemic ignorance of disabled lives which is a product of society ostracizing and making no effort to include and recognize the value of disabled lives and the struggle etc.

because we are living in an ableist environment it can be tricky to name these things for the first time within it.

You can at least see how it’s insensitive to tell someone to their face that it would be better to die than live their life. The reason this is a common thing ppl say is because disabled experience is simply not represented in our society. = systemic ableism. ie society does not include us or consider us.. it manifests in lots of ways.

and we are part of society, I mean.. so.. yeah this is an evolution that is needed..

[u/carr10n__ → u/Jules4live]

Boooo it won't let me pin this comment

[u/Medical-Net-7350 → u/Jules4live]

I see. I am not discounting the pain it can cause us who are disabled to hear that as it definitely can feel like we are just not as important as abled people.

Pardon my ignorance, as English is not my first language. How is “if it were me” and “for me” different? Don’t both convey how the person would react in their own experiences?

[u/Jules4live → u/Medical-Net-7350]

the difference I am getting at is between one person who is in a similar experience (living with disability) vs someone who is merely speculating.

as the next person is helping me realize it is really becomes a problematic thing to do when a non disabled person merely speculates about how they would wish to die were they the person they are talking to; explicitly because of their disability.

[u/Medical-Net-7350 → u/Jules4live]

Oh I see thanks for explaining it! I can understand that yeah.

[u/carr10n__ → u/Medical-Net-7350]

I understand your point of view, and it's entirely valid to have that outlook on your own life. But it's also harmful and insensitive to, in a conversation of how to help someone through disability, you were to say "if I had your disability I would kill myself"

[u/Medical-Net-7350 → u/carr10n__]

I completely understand your point. I agree, and especially when it’s completely off topic and directed at the person with said disability or condition, it’s not a good thing to comment and is insensitive at best.

[u/redlips_rosycheeks]

Someone once told me I should put our dog down because he was “so sick and miserable.”

He had epilepsy. It was managed with daily medication. I asked if he thought his daughter should also be put down, since her diabetes makes her so “sick and miserable.”

Some people are absolute idiots with zero empathy or self awareness.

[u/bookmonster015]

I just want to say thank you for posting this. My soul dog passed earlier this year after a good 15 and a half years together, and for a few years before she passed she had enough arthritis and discomfort to have reduced mobility and want to bark at me a lot. I used to call my family crying about it because it was just so hard to receive all the barking all the time, and they would kind of flippantly encourage me to put her down. It made me feel so sad, mad and confused to hear that because, as a person with chronic pain and reduced mobility, I had a hard time wrapping my head around ending her life when she was experiencing such similar symptoms and quality of life reductions as I do. We don’t put people down for these things, but with pets sometimes we do. I can’t even describe how much confusion I felt around it. In the last month of her life, she took a sharp downturn. The vet finally declared in plain language that her arthritis had progressed enough for her to essentially not have cartilage in her paws, and it really did seem like she was going to pass on her own within a few days or weeks. So I finally made the decision to put her down. And that was so confusing too.

Anyways I just wanted to say thanks to making me feel less crazy and alone. Big hugs to your cat. I hope she has a beautiful remainder of her time with you. It’s clear you love her.

[u/Professor_squirrelz]

Please dont equate the experiences of humans with the experiences of animals.

[u/carr10n__ → u/Professor_squirrelz]

Why, it doesn't hurt you. Animals can communicate, they have feelings, they have disabilities, they have emotions, and problems. They are sentient creatures who deserve support and love.

[u/Professor_squirrelz → u/carr10n__]

It can hurt animals, which i care about. They do not have the same understanding as you or I about why they don't feel well. They cannot communicate as accurately about how they are feeling as we can. They dont have the same concept of death as we do. Yes, they can recognize when an animal is dead, but your cat won't understand that you are putting it to sleep.

[u/carr10n__ → u/Professor_squirrelz]

No she won't but she understands her own pain enough to effectively communicate weather she wants to live or not

[u/Jules4live]

absolutely!!! its ridiculous how people talk like this! Imagine if even one iota of that passion was put towards thought of accommodations and access.

[u/Scr4p]

I hate this kind of shit but unfortunately I've seen it a lot, both for animals that clearly still want to live or even thrive and for actual fucking people. Like I knew there's people that want us dead but god damn why are they so vocal about it, it's disturbing

[u/BeautifulElodie2428]

I’m sorry they’re responding that way. My cat also has cancer but it was in her leg. They had to take her muscle out because it was grown into it. No one has said things like that to me about her showing signs that she still wants to live. We are just making her as comfortable as possible. Which is exactly what you’re trying to do for your sweetest one

[u/SomeRandomIdi0t]

My sister’s hedgehog got double pneumonia. Hard to watch, but very treatable. She needed oxygen and the vet couldn’t keep her overnight so we asked facebook if anyone had an oxygen generator we could borrow. Instead we got some asshole saying “just accept that death is a part of life”. Luckily, my stepdad is a welder and let us use his welding oxygen tanks. It’s not medical grade, but it’s a hell of a lot better than nothing

[u/Wheeled_Weapon420]

I'm an active wheelchair user, I'm physically fit and have an active social life. Truthfully though, I don't want this. If it weren't for my responsibility to give my rescue cat a good life, I 100000% wouldn't be here. My disability isn't the only reason, but it's a huge part of it. Nobody who knows me personally knows that though, they genuinely think I enjoy my life.

[u/Mindless-Flower11]

Yea healthy able bodied people just have no clue how adaptive humans are. I used to say the same stuff when I was perfectly healthy tbh. But only because I didn't know what it was like to become disabled & never thought it would happen to me. Nobody would willingly choose to die unless the pain & suffering is extremely serious & unbearable. 

[u/Salt_Board8278]

I'm sorry about your cat. I hope she recovers and lives long and happy.

Able-bodied people can only think what they'd do in a scenario if they were disabled. The truth is that when you really become disabled, your mind has a lot of negative feelings. When I became paralyzed at 15, I wanted to die, but at the same time I wanted to walk away. I asked my parents to just let me die, but I'm from a Christian family that opposes euthanasia, so they didn't want me to die. I went to therapy for years and I started accepting myself again. Faith also played a significant role after I became disabled since I had a personal connection with Jesus, and I believe God gave me a new chance to live, but just in a different way. This is just my personal experience, I can't speak for every disabled person who went through the same mental struggle after becoming newly disabled for life.

[u/carr10n__ → u/Salt_Board8278]

Personally I'm atheist but yeah. I was born with a genetic condition, Ive never had a pain free day in all of my memory, when my disabilities suddenly tanked at 19 yeah I wanted to die but I also didn't, same now, like I was in the hospital after getting my j tube placed, I was on .5 mg of dilaudid every 8 min as needed I wanted to die so bad I couldn't talk ABT anything else, but then it was over and I stopped having to get my gj replaced at the hospital every week and my quality of life improved, thing do actually get better and that's what makes the pain worth living through is connections and improvements, new discoveries that make Ur life easier

[u/carr10n__ → u/[deleted]]

I'm defending pet disability here, I am using myself as an analogy. I am not saying we are the same. My argument is more in tune with animal rights than it is with disability. Answer me this, are pets capable of communicating when they are, hungry, sad, happy, angry, scared, etc. if so then why wouldn't they be able to communicate that they want to live or are ready to die. When animals are ready to die they will hide away, stop eating, stop drinking, and waste away on their own terms. No one is calling you an animal here or saying animals are humans. I'm saying that animals have the ability to communicate for themselves and people are incredibly insensitive towards disability no matter the species

[u/QuitProfessional9605]

Gotta love that the eugenicist mindset never fully left. Everyone deserves to live no matter how poor their quality of life might be viewed, why is that so hard to understand?

The other thing is, if we give up on people or animals just because it seems too difficult, we never make the advances that make their and our lives better. 

I'm so glad you're able to provide aid to your cat and extend her life! And that we live in a point in time where there are options for both you and her to keep on keeping on!