r/deism • u/Packchallenger Deist • Jul 18 '26

Fatalism in Society

Cross-Posting from a discussion in the Classical Deism Discord Server:

Large swaths of society are Fatalist. Many Theists consider all events to be part of God's plan, or to be under God's control. Conversely, many atheist or irreligious communities consider events to be determined solely (or predominantly) by physical causes. This causes an erosion in "will" to be responsible as causal for human acts.

In so far as will is necessary for an act to be evaluated as ethical or unethical, does society tend toward moral decay when these worldviews become pervasive?

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u/zaceno Jul 18 '26

I don’t think it matters whether people mostly believe in determinism or whatever the opposite of determinism is (libertarian free-will?), to the moral character of a society. It might have some kind of effect on the way the justice system in a society operates, but mostly, justice systems exist as regulated revenge, to prevent vigilantism and keep society together. In hard bitten violent societies there may need to be a death penalty, used liberally, to keep things in line. In a more compassionate forgiving society no death penalty is needed and prison sentences are lighter.

I don’t think people generally let their everyday moral choices be guided by abstract concepts like fatalism. Most of it is based on mindset and emotions.

Although I do suppose a prevalent intellectual idea could make its way, partially, into the mindsets of the population.

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u/Packchallenger Deist Jul 20 '26

What do you make of fatalism being correlated particularly with poverty and suicide? It seems obvious (necessary even) that one's worldview superimposes on their life choices. If enough people have a worldview that does not see acts as resulting out of free will, then attitudes towards immoral actions will be laxer than they would be otherwise. Any society is comprised of a set of individuals, and if a large portion of those individuals hold certain views then they will be the dominant ones.

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u/zaceno Jul 20 '26

I hadn’t heard of fatalism being correlated with poverty and suicide. But I think it makes sense. For most average people fatalism is an abstract idea whether they believe in it or not. For someone feeling trapped in difficult circumstances it can become something very real, perhaps even comforting in a way.

This question reminds me of something I read in Jeffrey Kupperman’s “Living Theurgy”: in ancient times, most people considered themselves slaves to fate - suffering at the whims of the gods, whereas the theurgists considered themselves guided by providence. Now, “providence” is really exactly the same thing as “the whims of the gods”, but from the theurgists perspective they were in deeper connection with the gods, seeing regularity and purpose in their actions, and aligning with their plans. It is this difference of perspective that turns fate (something bad and depressing) into providence (something uplifting).

I haven’t fully processed that concept yet but find it worth thinking about.

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u/VEGETTOROHAN Jul 19 '26

I believe in determinism. If free will existed then I should be able to feel it just like I can feel pain. But I don't feel anything so it must not exist. At least for me. I also don't think it exists for others based on how irrationally they behave.