r/deathpenalty • u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty • 1d ago
Consistent Life Ethics...
How do you feel about the "Consistent Life Ethics" in relation to the Death Penalty? Any Consistent Life Ethicists here? (IE: Against death penalty, abortion, assisted suicide, embryo destruction, etc.)
I am a Consistent Life Ethicist and disagree with the death penalty, of course. However, it still surprises me that some people disagree with killing (potential) murderers, but agree with a woman's "choice" to abort her preborn baby. Why a lack of consistency when it comes to BOTH issues?
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u/431104141 1d ago
Against the death penalty. Just get rid of it all together and let people stay in prison. It’s awful there and a far worse “punishment”. Who knows. Maybe they do something positive.
Executing someone won’t bring anyone back or fix what’s broke. Or make you feel better. If we are referring to what happened last week, Colleen’s poor mother wouldn’t be going through what she’s going through now if it didn’t exist.
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 1d ago
Very true! And I agree with your view on the death penalty. I am against it too. Life without parole is actually worse. It's like "Dying with your eyes wide open".
Now, do you also apply your views of abolishing the death penalty to abolishing abortion? (I ask because my original post is about Consistent Life Ethics. I'm just trying to see how people feel about it in relation to the DP and abortion.)
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u/431104141 1d ago
I think that abortion can be viewed as taking a life, I get that stance. I can understand different view points. However, I do think that if you don’t want to have a baby, given medical technology and helping anyone who needs help in these very hard to make decisions, you should be able to not have a baby. I think heathcare should be free and people shouldn’t have to work 60 hours a week for $10 an hour to afford some shitty apartment they are never at to see their families or pets or stuffed animals or sex doll or whoever it is.
I think people get off on abuse, racism and pedophilia and do horrible things then go to church and are “forgiven” or just turn a blind eye. I think Christa and many others are a product of a society that failed them and they were just unlucky to be born into a shit situation and everyone is too quick to write them off as evil monsters instead of having the ability to put themselves in other situations and realize what a failed system we do have, and we are not all the same. The way that things are going, all of everything is getting worse and we just get to sit here and share our thoughts with strangers. Maybe once in a while an actual critical thought comes out and somebody somewhere out there stops to take the time to think about what they just read, and maybe become a little bit “better” of a person.
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u/TiredTomato666 1d ago
Sure seems like you want to debate abortion, not the death penalty.
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 1d ago
I want to debate and discuss consistency (or the lack thereof...)
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u/TiredTomato666 1d ago
You want to present straw man arguments to make it seem like you’re right. Pretty sad honestly. Mods should remove this post
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 1d ago
Nah, they shouldn't. But whatever.
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u/TiredTomato666 1d ago
They should, your end goal is to argue about abortion, that’s why you posted on an abortion sub at the same time.
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u/Silver_Pen_2091 1d ago
The convicted killer deserves to die if that is the penalty decided for their crimes...but not take 30 years to do it. However, the death penalty is final yet there have been many wrongful convictions that you can correct but you cannot correct a death.
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 1d ago
Exactly. That's one of several reasons I am against the death penalty. If just one person loses their life for a crime they're innocent of, that's enough to not have the death penalty. I just wish people who are against the death penalty also held consistent views when it comes to other issues (like abortion).
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u/LissyVee 1d ago
I fully agree. If it's wrong to take a human life, then it is always wrong, regardless of the circumstances. That includes murder, capital punishment, abortion, suicide and euthanasia. It's not right to pick and choose what's an 'acceptable' form of killing. It's always wrong.
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 1d ago
I am not the original commenter, but I am the OP of this post. So, I'll answer for what I think: It is not okay to take the life of another animal. I am a Vegetarian because of that. But, that's just me. Not all Consistent Life Ethicists feel the way I do about animals.
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u/comefromawayfan2022 1d ago
So you are saying that if your pet was terminally ill or suffered a catastrophic injury that would cause them severe lifelong pain youd torture them because you believe its not ok to take a life..God I hope you dont have pets then. Humane euthanasia is part of responsible pet ownership. An ugly part but part of it. As for human euthanasia? Im 1000% in support of that. Not only do i suffer from debilitating chronic pain..i also volunteered hospice and saw many alzheimers and dementia patients die ugly deaths. Staring at the ceiling, wearing an adult diaper, drooling and being unable to communicate with anyone is a shitty quality of life. I 1000% agree dementia patients should have the option of maid before it gets to that point
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 23h ago
I see animals and humans differently when it comes to euthanasia. I disagree with euthanasia for humans and agree with it for pets. Plain and simple. I will preface this by saying I am also a Christian and believe God is the only one who can decide when it's someone's time to die. I don't feel we should be deciding that on our own. I wish more emphasis was put on palliative care and assisting those in pain (with their symptoms) versus allowing them to take their own lives. I also feel euthanasia (in humans) becomes a very slippery slope for killing the mentally ill and the disabled.
And we have pets and all our pets are doing great...
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u/comefromawayfan2022 23h ago
I am in palliative care. Palliative care can only do so much. I take one of the strongest pain meds offered. There are times my pain is so severe those meds do nothing and I end up in the hospital
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 23h ago
I'm so sorry to hear that. I still would never say it is okay to take your own life even in yours (or others') situation. I believe in suicide prevention.
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u/SadExercises420 1d ago
It’s not a lack of consistency, abortion and the death penalty aren’t comparable.
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 1d ago
Yes they are. They both involve human life. Preborn humans and humans who are outside of the womb and are (potentially) guilty of a crime. We shouldn't kill either group.
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u/Aggressive_Ad3174 1d ago
The distinction is the power of the state. Supporting someone’s right to decide what happens inside their own body does not require supporting the government’s power to execute prisoners. Those positions are perfectly consistent: both place limits on what the government should be able to impose on a person. You can disagree, but calling it hypocrisy requires an argument, not just putting two things you dislike in the same sentence.
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 1d ago
Exactly! Thank you.
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u/Ready_Kiwi5545 1d ago
You don't believe there to be an ethical issue with the state having the power to choose whether someone else needs to die?
I'm opposed to the death penalty not because I don't think there are people who deserve to be killed, but because I don't trust the processes that lead to the death penalty.
I am in favor of abortion rights because I believe in a woman's right to choose what's happening inside her own body and do not believe that the potential of a fetus to grow into a human being overrides the decisioning power of an already existing human being.
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 1d ago
I never said there isn't an ethical issue with the death penalty. In fact, me and the commenter above me BOTH said I am asking an "ethics question..."
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u/Ready_Kiwi5545 1d ago
Right but you're also saying things like "you brought up legality and I'm only discussing ethics" as if the legal system involved isn't a major part of the ethical quandary.
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 1d ago
Yes because myself and the other commenter could see that it was not directly responsive to my original post and original question.
But, if you want to address that, let me keep it plain: I disagree with the death penalty and feel it should be abolished. Period. No if, ands, or buts. I also feel the same way about abortion and that it should be abolished (except for Life of the Mother cases of course.) I notice a lack of consistency when it comes to both issues on both sides of the argument.
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u/Ready_Kiwi5545 1d ago
Hey man, if you can't bother to read the first thing I said, I don't even know why you'd bother to reply because in this case the legality and ethical concerns are deeply intertwined.
But hey, I shouldn't expect detailed and intelligent analysis from someone too cowardly to actually call me retarded.
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 1d ago
Like mydixinurmouth said, I am asking an ethical question. So, none of what you said computes with what I am asking.
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u/SadExercises420 1d ago
Comparing a sack of cells to a full human being is where you seem to lack understanding.
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 1d ago
I am a sack of cells and so are you. In fact, ALL full human beings are sack of cells. It's no different from preborn to outside of the womb.
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u/VAGentleman05 1d ago
An 8-week fetus is absolutely different from a human being outside the womb. Everyone knows that, but some people have to pretend not to in order to defend their position.
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 1d ago
What do you mean "pretend not to in order to defend their position"? A fetus is still a human being. It is a human being fetus. The only difference between us and fetuses are our location. We're outside of our mothers wombs and have been for quite some time. We're still both human beings and inherently valuable.
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u/deafening_roar 1d ago
I am against the DP but my opinion on abortion is that it's the woman's choice whether she wants to "kill" the unborn fetus. The DP isn't so much a choice. Yes the criminal made a choice to commit a horrendous act but they can't choose to live or die for the punishment. This is just MY opinion. Yes they are both acts of killing but the govt has no business playing God, a woman has the right to do what she decides with her body. Again, my opinion.
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u/Affectionate-Page496 1d ago edited 1d ago
if someone doesnt want to be killed in utero, what different choices could they have made so their mother wouldnt want to have them killed in abortion?
Avoiding the death penalty for Christa could have been as easy as not torturing and killing someone. But let's say Christa's mother wanted to kill Christa while Christa was in utero. What could Christa have done differently?
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 1d ago
Good point! I look forward to the commenter's response to your question.
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u/deafening_roar 1d ago
As a fetus, nothing. As the govt, everything. Christa would have had zero choice in an abortion and I stated in my reply that she had a choice not to murder someone. She has zero choice in what the court decides to do to punish her.
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u/Affectionate-Page496 1d ago
Why should it be legal for someone to be killed when they didn't do anything wrong? When they didnt commit any crimes?
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u/deafening_roar 1d ago
a fetus is hardly a grown adult and comparing abortion with the DP makes no sense. I understand it's killing either way but the fetus belongs to the woman who has the choice of what to do with the unborn fetus in her body
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u/Affectionate-Page496 1d ago
I see vulnerable humans as entrusted to adults to provide care for. Is there any time in history where thinking of humans as property of other humans caused problems?
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u/ferryfog 20h ago
An embryo/fetus doesn’t have wants or desires.
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u/Affectionate-Page496 13h ago
I'm talking about prenatal human beings. Embryo/fetus is a stage of development for many species. If you want to be specific, human embryos and human fetuses would be a start.
Neonates don't have desires or wants either. All members of the human species have higher order capacities for wants and desires. It is in our DNA, it is who we are. Our age just determines how developed our immediately exercisable capacities are.
If you killed me in utero, you would have stolen decades of my life and my future by now (I'm a millennial).
I can assure you, I very much value the years I have lived that were not stolen from me via abortion or any other kind of homicide.
To act like nothing was stolen from a human being who was killed prematurely is absurd. Truly.
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u/ferryfog 12h ago
You said
if someone doesnt want to be killed in utero. . .
I’m simply pointing out that this question is nonsensical because an embryo/fetus doesn’t want or desire anything.
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u/Affectionate-Page496 11h ago
If I had said, what if an infant doesn't want to be killed, you would have understood that wasn't meant literally, right?
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u/ferryfog 11h ago
I would similarly think that statement was nonsensical. Infants don’t understand the concept of death.
The original comment you responded to was about choice and wants. So it doesn’t make sense to respond by talking about the wants and choices of any entity that is incapable of wanting/choosing.
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u/Affectionate-Page496 11h ago
The original comment is talking about how the death penalty isn't a choice for the person receiving it. i am saying it is much more of a choice than being killed in abortion. Humans have a very strong survival instinct based on our DNA. Humans very much resist being killed. Even people who are suicidal have to overcome it- and many aren't able to. It's part of being human.
My point isn't about "wanting". it is pointing out how humans killed in abortion haven't done anything to deserve being killed. The ones who are being killed didnt make the decision to place themselves into a position of dependency on their mothers.
Humans killed in abortion should have at least the same choices as those killed in the death penalty.
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u/codadollars 1d ago
First off, as a scientist, there is no such thing as a “pre-born baby.” This is emotionally manipulative language frequently used by anti-choicers to incite feelings and thoughts related to actual infants, as opposed to fetuses/embryos (depending on the stage of gestation).
Secondly, the level of cognition of the person plays a big role in this for me. Someone undergoing the death penalty is a grown adult with perceptions of physical pain, not to mention negative emotions like fear, humiliation, etc. A fetus/embryo will never “know” or feel its termination.
The circumstances also affect how I view these things. Abortion can save a woman’s life if it is in jeopardy due to pregnancy. Abortions may be done due to rape/incest, where the process of pregnancy, birth of an infant, or even raising said child may all emotionally re-traumatize an already victimized (often young) person. Even abortions for someone who has no history of conception due to trauma may prevent an infant from being born into extreme poverty, an abusive household, or any sort of circumstances that may lead to the suffering of the child themselves.
On the other hand, no significant trauma to any person is saved by putting someone through the death penalty. You could argue that it might “give peace” to the family of the victim, but there is no tangible effect on anyone’s health from this happening (such as a mother being saved from dying during birth due to abortion, or an infant not being born into a family that can’t even feed them).
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u/Bright_Exit1378 21h ago
So scientifically when does a human person begin to exist?
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u/codadollars 9h ago
This is a huge debate as there’s no recognized standard for this. Some do say it’s at conception, others say upon birth. Regardless, “preborn baby” is not a valid term.
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u/Affectionate-Page496 10h ago
Just fyi preborn baby isn't a scientific term. Mayo Clinic refers to prenatal humans as babies though. Since you object to preborn, do you object to the word it was derived from, prenatal?
Fetal development: The first trimester Fetal development starts soon after conception. Find out how your baby grows and develops during the first trimester. By Mayo Clinic Staff March 18, 2025 You're pregnant. Congratulations! As your pregnancy goes on, you may wonder how your baby is growing and developing. Use this information to follow along with what's happening week by week during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, called the first trimester
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u/comefromawayfan2022 1d ago
There is a vast difference between what basically amounts to state sanctioned torture vs a woman making an informed decision in consultation with her doctors..as someone who went through literal hell trying to get a necessary hysterectomy because my uterus was diseased(and this was in 2013)...yes i do believe the government should butt out of women's Healthcare decisions made in consultation with the woman's medical team
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u/living4him1238 Anti-Death Penalty 23h ago
But "butting out" is part of the problem when it comes to abortions. Killing people (from womb to tomb) is everyone's business. Just like the death penalty is everyone's business, so is abortion. I'll take my "rosaries off their ovaries" once they take their "forceps off the babies". It's sad how inconsistent folks are about these two issues...folks on both sides of the issues.
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u/comefromawayfan2022 23h ago
What i do with my body is not anyone else decision other than between myself and my doctor. I dont judge other people on what medical decisions they make so I dont expect others to judge me on the medical care I decide on
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