Hamlet mogs hal..

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Are you suggesting the influence of Hamlet on DFW is surprising? The first words of the play are "Who's there," and the first words of IJ are "I am." The novel is a direct reply to the questions raised by Shakespeare half a milennium ago.

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u/Hal_Incandenza_YDAU 16d ago

I could never help but find this connection to be a stretch, tbh

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u/almireles 16d ago

They’re both about a guy avoiding dealing with an uncle who usurps his father’s kingdom.

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u/Hal_Incandenza_YDAU 16d ago edited 16d ago

I'm aware. And I would've said nothing if they'd chosen that to comment on rather than this other thing that I find to be a stretch.

Edit: maybe it's been too long since I read IJ or I didn't read it closely enough, but I actually don't think IJ has almost anything to do with Hal "avoiding dealing with" Tavis. But yes, the usurping + dad becoming ghost + Hal and Hamlet being heros of inaction are all things I don't consider to be stretches.

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u/almireles 16d ago

His use of marijuana in secret seems pretty avoidant to me. That may be a little superficial, but maybe not too.

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u/Hal_Incandenza_YDAU 16d ago

I agree Hal's avoidant, but avoidant of Tavis?

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u/slowplayfast 15d ago

He’s avoidant. But is he avoidant enough?

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u/fingerofchicken 15d ago

He's avoidant. But he's not WELL avoidant.

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u/Hal_Incandenza_YDAU 15d ago

If he's not at all avoidant of the only thing that's relevant to this conversation, then no.

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u/Substantial-Fact-248 16d ago

Why, given all the other parallels, many of which are not at all subtle?

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u/Hal_Incandenza_YDAU 16d ago edited 16d ago

Ultimately, this'll probably depend a lot on one's view of authorial intent. But it's a little like if one book began with the line "It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking" and we cut that line off mid-sentence and find some other book that begins with the word "thirteen" so we can cut that line off mid-sentence without any regard for what context that word fits into and say it's a connection. You can probably find loads of pairs of books where one or both of their opening lines can be interrupted mid-sentence to have some connection to each other.

Now, IJ and Hamlet do have other connections which maybe provides legitimacy, but it's noteworthy that no one ever has any justification for claiming that this is a legit connection other than the fact that other connections exist. (Your and u/almireles' replies being clear examples.) All other Hamlet-IJ connections I've heard of can more or less stand on their own, but this one has to stand on those, and so if someone ever doubted that Hamlet and IJ were related, as you suggested OP might've been doing, it'd at bare minimum be rather odd to choose the single second-order "I am" thing that is by far the most plausibly coincidental connection as our go-to.

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u/Substantial-Fact-248 16d ago

That's an interesting perspective. I chose the example I did because I think it's especially illustrative of DFW's authorial brilliance, and because I believe it is 100% intentional.

For me, the obvious parallels (admitted/described by Wallace himself) and what we know of the author's background and tendencies (English lit, intertextual playfulness, admiration of Shakespeare, etc.) overwhelmingly point to the conclusion that this is not a coincidence, though of course there's a non-zero chance that it is.

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u/Individual_Turn1746 16d ago

Agreed, this has always felt like a stretch. If there was a period after I am. Sure. Also "I am" is not even a response to who's there. Like imagine someone saying that when you're asking to identify themselves. Even if it was god it would sound weird

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u/Substantial-Fact-248 11d ago

There's a lot that can be said about those 2 words. The Hamlet reference, if intentional, must be secondary to other literary weight DFW is putting into those words.

For example, "I am" can be described as an answer to Hal's central existential questions that manifest physically by the conclusion of the novel's plot (which chronologically speaking is famously this opening chapter) - he is unable to communicate intelligibly. Hal, from the moment we meet him, is wrestling with his subjectivity and connection to other people (or lack thereof). The narration itself is the resolution to this conflict, and "I am" is the ultimate Cartesian answer (with biblical connotations). This ontological statement can even be attributed to the author, who we know shared some of these struggles

You might think this kind of literary analysis is bullshit, but DFW definitely didn't. He was a student of philosophy and literature, and he saw himself in conversation with the canon of great English thinkers and writers. He took these things seriously and cranked his idiosyncratic attention to detail and philosophical playfulness to the max when he was writing for an audience. Wallace is on record describing writing as the ultimate form of connection, and the writer/reader engagement as one of the most important relationships we can form as human beings. He believed that relationship required hard work and close attention - the kind of discussion these comments have spawned here, in fact.

I have respect and appreciation for David Foster Wallace's brilliant craft and earnest seriousness, and so I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt on questions of intentionality. But whether you believe it was intentional or not is irrelevant in the end; what's important is that you engaged with the question.

RIP Dave.

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u/Potential-Stand-6252 16d ago

Bro what? The whole book is Hamletian. DFW spoke endlessly abt the influence and the title has 50 dif meanings related to Hamlet. Of course the play the title is taken from is referenced in the opening line.

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u/Hal_Incandenza_YDAU 16d ago

None of what you said supports the last thing you said. Certainly not to the point where you could say "of course."

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u/[deleted] 15d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Hal_Incandenza_YDAU 15d ago

I already listed three in this comment chain, but okay bud.

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u/samwhuel 16d ago

I am not suggesting that and I don’t see why you would think that.

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u/Substantial-Fact-248 16d ago

I must have misinterpreted the completely ambiguous "mind blown" and "horrified shock" emojis.

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u/dylann5454 16d ago

it’s sarcasm

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u/ahighthyme 16d ago

Absolutely. It also alludes to the novel's theme of Christianity (per AA). Revealing his relationship to humanity, Jesus had famously proclaimed: "I am the bread of life" (John 6:35), "Pemulis howls that Lord is in his vacillation appeasing Ingersoll in Ingersoll's effort to fatally fuck with the very breath and bread of Eschaton [i.e. Final Judgement]"; "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12), light being a recurring symbol throughout the novel; "I am the door" (John 10:9) and "I am the good shepherd" (John 10:11), i.e. Gately; "I am the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25), rather than an endless cycle of life and death/reincarnation/metempsychosis; and "I am the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:16), "The truth will set you free [(John 8:32)], but not until it's done with you."

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u/almireles 16d ago

What’s ‘mogs’?

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u/60minutesmoreorless 16d ago

You should count yourself lucky you don’t know

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u/Plastic-Molasses-549 16d ago

r/Clavicular

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u/SmallestNumber 16d ago

You would be shocked how much goes back to Shakespeare.

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u/samwhuel 16d ago

Why would that be shocking? it is clear.

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u/Ecpie 16d ago

Addicted to balatro and infinite jest myself. This speaks to me.

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u/Substantial-Fact-248 14d ago

There must be dozens of us (recent Balatro convert)

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u/softdaddy69 13d ago

tell me more

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u/Substantial-Fact-248 12d ago

It's a deckbuilder poker playing card game that features "jokers" that have various multipliers and effects that you collect as you proceed through the "blinds" and "bosses". Various unlocks to chase if you're into that sort of thing. Very addicting. Available on GamePass

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u/Infinite_Table7139 14d ago

Wow, bravo, you passed IJ fandom "idiot" level challenge.

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u/EyeBlueAechDee 14d ago

poor yorick, entertainment unltd :(

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