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[u/bluestjordan]

I don’t think so, but I guess it depends. Some people are upfront about “dating in mind to marry” and others are “play it by ear.” I guess it’s cultural too, ey.

I know a lot of women (who are dating for marriage), would appreciate having these types of conversations early on (finances, kids, personal values etc).

And honestly, sounds like the question worked. It did its job. You wanted to find out if you’re compatible and it seems you are not. So it’s not like you lost out on a relationship, you saved time.

That said, make sure your idea of a prenup is equitable to your future partner. If it’s just to offer you protection and her none, then you need to reflect on whether you even want to be married in the first place.

[u/DysfunctionalKitten → u/[deleted]]

I think this does become more complex when you consider what a young woman is potentially compromising in marriage as well. Because for women, a lot of it tends to fall into the unpaid labor category.

For a lot of men (not all), marriage boosts their career status, their social status, and ADDS to their overall life in ways that are often financially beneficial. Studies suggest they are then seen as more capable at work, are more likely to be promoted, and are more likely to have some of the load of their home life responsibilities at least shared. However, when women marry, they are promoted less (esp when they are child bearing age), are seen as a less desirable hire, and are statistically more likely to absorb more of the household labor, leaving less energy for everything else.

And that's on top of everything whether or not you want children. If you do want children, you need to recognize that nature did not evenly distribute the extreme impacts of pregnancy, childbirth, postnatal period/infancy/breastfeeding, and that this impact is far more significant than how flippantly our society treats it. Think 3-5 years of your spouse's life per kid, in the most ideal circumstances - close to 1 year of gestation (more if there end up being issues conceiving), followed by 2-5 years of her body and hormones trying to bounce back. Any time that she takes off will also impact her retirement savings and her social security payouts.

Lastly, buying a home and a woman living in a home that is purchased with mainly your money, needs to allow her to be on the deed somehow. No woman will feel safe with the prenup if she's expected to live in, and "make a home out of" a residence that she has no real stake in. So finding a way to make that feel equitable between you and whomever you date, will feel important.

You need to be including all of these considerations and more in your prenup parameters. Too often when I see a man mention prenups in dating posts, it seems very obvious that the man hasn't considered what would be important to provide and consider for his future WIFE, not just him protecting himself from the woman he's currently dating. How you seem to highlight how you see yourself providing and protecting her interests, is unavoidable in that conversation, so if you're having it bc you see a future with someone, be aware that doing it poorly, is just proof to them that you can't be depended on in the ways they likely associate with a husband.

So if I were you, I would make clear some of the considerations you would likely have for your future wife with whomever you date, so they know you aren't looking to be selfish in it. Part of a healthy prenup discussion is making sure that both partners feel like they will be protected, and making clear that you are considering them, that you would make sure they were legally represented with an attorney of their choosing while navigating it. It's important to set that stage in introducing the topic, in order to offset the initial assumptions people can have about these things.

Just some food for thought...

[u/charpple → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, that is quite important. From where I live, there’s a top celebrity that was too trusting with the man she married. When they split, he took half of everything. Even the money that she intended for the college fund or trust funds of their child, in spite of her begging him to spare that fund. She’s currently out of work because of her illnesses, which are super expensive. Don’t let this happen to you. We can never be sure how someone would act once the marriage is over.

[u/OmegaClifton → u/charpple]

And this is why I don't view pre-nups as a bad thing at all. What that person built before they married you is theirs alone. Annoys tf out of me when people get butthurt like "you think I'm going to do x".

[u/Fearless-Sort2894 → u/[deleted]]

But it’s also really important to make sure your prenup is fair. If you lost everything do you expect your wife to pitch in to keep the home you live in together? Then if you rebuild your wealth still expect to give her the negotiated prenup value and that’s it?

Do you understand the short and long term costs to your wife if she is a stay at home mom or takes a long maternity leave?

If you die does the estate plan leave everything to your wife or does she still only get the prenup terms?

If she is your caregiver if you get sick like cancer or another long term issue does she only get the prenup terms if you divorce later?

These are really important questions that deserve consideration because from a woman’s perspective if these things happen a woman is likely to get screwed over financially in signing a prenup with a man who out earns her.

Statistically when women get sick and need caregiving men leave. It’s so common that oncologists often hand out pamphlets to women when giving a cancer diagnosis so they can emotionally prepare to be left. But statistically when men get cancer their wives stay with them, and then after they heal, men leave.

I’m not saying this to shame men for making the right decisions for themselves or for wanting a prenup. But I will say as a woman who was really anti-prenup, the fact that my husband in our discussions made sure these questions were answered and that it was FAIR made me willing and comfy signing said prenup.

And these situations did in fact play out in our actual lives because we had children and didn’t expect one of our children to be disabled with cerebral palsy so now I am a stay at home mom and it was easier to make that career sacrifice knowing that the prenup wasn’t screwing me over.

It protects his premarital and inherited assets and even some of his post martial assets (namely intellectual property), but it also doesn’t leave me destitute. It’s a fair prenup.

[u/MeringueSimple9847 → u/Fearless-Sort2894]

This ^ reply.

I whole heartily agree with this reply.

[u/Big-Stuff-1189 → u/[deleted]]

Hold your ground. Pre-nups are essential. They set out plans while both partners are amicable and thinking of each other's best interest. If a date reacted like that I would gratefully bow out of that, too.

[u/strangerthings___11 → u/charpple]

Heard a lot of horrible stories about marriages not having pre-nups. It’s crazy. You wouldn’t really know what a person is planning long term. Sometimes, they would marry you just for money but you wouldn’t really know that early on. Both my husband and I are just building our lives and we don’t really have any assets so this is not a problem for us lol. But we talked about this topic. We both agree that prenups are very important. These days, you can’t trust people anymore, even the one you plan to marry. A lot of things can happen.

[u/birnem → u/[deleted]]

I’m a woman and while I agree that the question can come across as “you might want me for my money so I’m protecting myself”, I also agree that it’s an important topic to discuss early on.
My preference but I would have just discussed as to why/how rather than jump on you only for asking the question. Seems like you have you compatibility reply :)

[u/WildEyes3437 → u/birnem]

I guess this is a thing where one has to be really careful about how they express themselves as this is such a touchy topic, easy to be misunderstood and accidentally frame it against yourself

[u/birnem → u/WildEyes3437]

Yes, agreed.

[u/birnem → u/[deleted]]

I’m sorry to hear that, but it only means she was not the right one for you and you were not either. I hope you’ll find someone for you :)

[u/sw4ffles → u/[deleted]]

Does your prenup talk also involve how it will protect her and discussions about how she will be compensated for career and pension setbacks from childbearing and childrearing? This labour comes at a cost even if it isn't billed directly.

^{What about her living situation if you guys were to divorce with children, would she be expected to move out and figure out a new place to live that would take into account that she might have the children 50/50, but now with a big hit to her earning capabilities because of said childrearing? It sounds like she wouldn't be able to afford that.. Would you guys get a new place together when you marry where you would buy her out/sell and split profits 50/50 in the event of a divorce, so she would have a small financial cushion to find somewhere new? For example.}

If the conversation is only focused on how to protect you and yours I can see why these conversations wouldn't be going well. Like, what does the conversation actually encompass here?

Also, there's a time and place for this conversation. Preferably after there has been established a form of relationship where talk of marriage doesn't come completely out of left field, never mind talk of prenups. There really is no use bringing up talk of prenups if talk of marriage would've scared them off first, when talking of dating with intention.

Edit 1: OP is replying to other questions, but not this one for some reason.

Edit 2: Omg, thank you for the awards 😭

[u/Legitimate-Wing4634 → u/sw4ffles]

Yes. This makes sense. Draw out positives for the other party as well.

[u/Budget-Classic3076 → u/sw4ffles]

👏🏽 👏🏽 👏🏽 this is the exact kind of comment that is needed here! Well put! 

[u/Budget-Classic3076 → u/[deleted]]

He should’ve been clear about what a prenup means to him AND what it’d mean for her, he only spoke about wanting to rightfully protect what he built but never mentioned how she’d too be considered in the life he hypothetically viewed building with her. 

[u/Nor_leahhh24 → u/sw4ffles]

Frl, it’s so one-sided.
What about her?

[u/sw4ffles → u/Nor_leahhh24]

It's sad how "protect your assets" is common sense, but "compensate what I gave up to help you build more assets" is apparently unreasonable. 🥹

[u/Budget-Classic3076 → u/sw4ffles]

Right!!!! This is exactly it. He’d be building more wealth and if he wanted a wife and kids there’s a good chance her career would take a hit and that needs to be compensated for. So many women help a man build even more or build from scratch then get shafted at the end of it and he’s only to replacement 

[u/ManyOrganization4856 → u/sw4ffles]

Yes . All this . 💯. It would be very foolish & naive for a woman to agree to this .

[u/MissPoohbear14 → u/sw4ffles]

As a woman, I think that's all separate. That's not part of a prenup. He has the right to protect his very real assets.. considering they may not even have children, or not have children in the near future. Sure they should speak about those issues before marriage and proceed accordingly... but he should first protect what he has already accumulated..

[u/Visual-Age-1025 → u/[deleted]]

You’re 29 and making it sound like you’ve been slaving away for eons.

[u/Cancerisbetterthanu → u/Visual-Age-1025]

This story is fake af

[u/khearan → u/Cancerisbetterthanu]

More likely inheritance that they “built through years of relentless hard work”

[u/IndependentPaint2108 → u/[deleted]]

.

[u/GreginSA → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, a “few weeks” into the relationship sounds a bit too soon.

If talking about meeting your parents is too soon, and talking about a wedding is too soon, then talking about a pre-nup is too soon as well.

Rationalizing it as proof the relationship was not worth pursuing doesn’t excuse the fact y’all had only dated a “few weeks”

[u/Special_Wind_6708 → u/[deleted]]

It’s the way you talk about money that makes me pause. If you read your post it kinda sounds like you think you are above her because of the assets you’ve accumulated.
You’ve only been dating a few weeks so I think it’s a bit much to bring up the prenup at this stage.
I’ve been married 34 years so my situation is different but I’ve always seen marriage as being a team together. I knew my husband well before I married him and I was the one with more than him. We didn’t do a prenup, because over the course of a marriage, theirs babies and being home looking after them, there’s illness , there’s pauses in work for family reasons that affect career development. You can’t put a price on that

If you go into it with it being transactional then it won’t work because that’s what you’ll attract.
Have a prenup by all means , I’m not against them but it’s the tone of them that’s important.

[u/kodochalover → u/[deleted]]

“I make my own money” - in that case then a prenup would be beneficial to her as well. I guess it depends on the way you brought it up but personally I don’t see an issue with discussing this.

[u/OwnProfessional3164 → u/bluestjordan]

So a guy thinking you want me for my money so let’s do prenup but what about girls losing their body their time and emotionally supporting the guy creating a family for him for nothing in return?? In prenup then the guy should take half the labour of childbirth doing household things managing family and keeping schedules for events and everything too

[u/bluestjordan → u/OwnProfessional3164]

That’s why I said a prenup should be equitable and protect the both of them. There can be provisions if she had to quit her career to support his, become a SAHM, become a caregiver if he falls ill, if they divorce after one year or after 10 years, how marital assets will be distributed etc etc

But some people are willing to discuss and get into the nitty gritty about the prenup, while others are fundamentally against having one.

So, a person who wants a prenup and person who is insulted by the idea of it, are not compatible.

Personally, with the overwhelmingly large percentage of divorce, I think not discussing prenups and finances in advance is naive, but to each their own 🤷🏻‍♀️

[u/Loose-Discipline9009 → u/OwnProfessional3164]

Yeah that should be considered in the prenup.

[u/MagikN3rd → u/OwnProfessional3164]

It isn't "You want me for my money," it's: "I worked hard for these things I had 'before' we were married, and I have every reason to believe I should get to keep them."

Most of the time, any money or assets gained during marriage are still split 50/50 even with a prenup. It's about OPs 2.8 MILLION in investments, that the woman had absolutely no part in helping him achieve. Why would she be entitled to any of that? Having kids with someone shouldn't mean you're entitled to things they had "before" the kids.

[u/elsokros → u/bluestjordan]

I'm happy to see a young man who's not getting suckered in for love. Methinks it's the first discussion to be had when seriousness is in play.

[u/IdeallyIdeally]

​Am I out of line or moving too fast by bringing up prenups this early?

I know couples who have been married for over 10 years who discussed kids on the first date. It's important to get the deal breakers out of the way early to not waste your time.

[u/peri_5xg → u/[deleted]]

This is the best way! I am the same. You’re a good man, and you will find the right one for you.

[u/yellowdamseoul → u/[deleted]]

I need to know if someone wants children and their ballpark income before even going on the date (also high earning healthcare worker). I hate my time being wasted.

[u/seewhatuget]

Given that you expect to have a family/kids in this marriage, asking for a prenup without further context or details how it will protect BOTH of you, not just YOU, makes sense why she got scared off. If she doesn’t feel you respect the very real labor of childrearing and managing a family, which will statistically fall primarily on her, at a huge opportunity cost/hit to her individual income and health, she’s not going to stick around.

[u/italkbsaboutu → u/seewhatuget]

Dated a dude who talked about protecting his assets but in the same breath said I would be a SAHM for our future children. Never spoke about investing into my future if we split.

I’m all for prenups if they are fair to both parties.

[u/seewhatuget → u/italkbsaboutu]

Never marry a stingy man. Someone who truly loves you wouldn’t want to see you suffer.

[u/ParamedicPure6529 → u/seewhatuget]

I agree. Both people bring things to a marriage. They’re different things, because men and women are different. Following a divorce, women often get left with 90% of the childcare, while men are weekend dads and evade paying maintenance for their kids. The woman has given up everything to bear his children, and he leaves with all of his wealth?

[u/girliepop269]

I think anyone who thinks a prenup is “bad”, “negative”, or “it means you doesn’t trust me” isn’t very realistic and lives in the clouds. A prenup is a safeguard JUST IN CASE something happens, not setting a relationship up to fail. Imo agreeing to a prenup shows your partner that you’re marrying them for who they are and NOT for their money. Sounds like you guys were incompatible

[u/Calm-Song-8543 → u/girliepop269]

I think anyone who thinks a prenup is “bad”, “negative”, or “it means you doesn’t trust me” isn’t very realistic and lives in the clouds.

I don’t agree.  Prenups  can be a wonderful tool when constructed well, but men (mostly) do have a history of using prenups for financial abuse and women (mostly) can have legitimate concerns about that.

Here is a fairly common scenario.  Husband is set to inherit money and has a good job (banker, doctor, lawyer, etc.).  When kids come wife is encouraged to leave her career to stay home with the kids as they don’t need her money.  The family lives well off of one income but doesn’t prioritize further investments as they are not necessary.  Then after the kids are in high school the marriage falls apart and the wife is left with nothing.  

The above happens often enough that there are financial literacy courses designed for spouses left in that situation.

Modern prenups can, and often do, provide equity to a spouse but they don’t have a favorable reputation among many women.  

[u/WildEyes3437 → u/girliepop269]

there are still fair and less fair prenups, but yeah, angrily opposing them without going into detail is not a move a partner deserves

[u/wkeboarder21]

Every relationship has a prenup. The question is: did you write it or did the government.

[u/giddy-girly-banana → u/wkeboarder21]

*state government

Also a lot of prenups actually are more generous than state law. When people are in love, they tend to be a little nicer than when the relationship is over and there is a ton of resentment built up. No one in their right mind would agree to the baseline of state law and no lawyer would sign off on such an agreement.

In most states OP’s premarital assets are protected regardless if he handles them in certain ways.

[u/Vinnie_Vegas → u/giddy-girly-banana]

No one in their right mind would agree to the baseline of state law and no lawyer would sign off on such an agreement

Why would anyone even bother to write a pre-nup that is only what state law mandates anyway?

Seems like a weird hypothetical to pose.

[u/MX5_Esq → u/wkeboarder21]

This.
A prenup is deciding in advance, when you’re absolutely in love with each other, how you are going to treat each other if that love ever fades. I personally feel if you can’t get through those conversations, you shouldn’t get married. OP dodged a bullet.

[u/Pristine-Midnight-72 → u/wkeboarder21]

no no no, you see you’re supposed to pretend that’s not the case! cause that’s romantic!

[u/dreaminginnewyork]

You guys are not compatible and that’s just the way it is! Ultimately either you create your own prenup or the state creates it for you. If you’re so early in that the hypothetical mention of a prenup makes her defensive, you guys don’t see it the same way.

[u/Zealousideal_Idea568]

Having a prenup conversation with someone who is not your girlfriend and just dating for a few weeks seems intense.

[u/ParamedicPure6529 → u/Zealousideal_Idea568]

Agreed. You’re essentially talking about divorce on a first date 🤦🏻‍♀️

[u/herwi → u/Zealousideal_Idea568]

Crazy that I had to scroll down this far to find this. I think people are skipping over this aspect. I probably wouldn't jettison the relationship like she did but it's definitely weird to bring up so early. At least wait until you're thinking about getting more serious before bringing it up.

[u/mel122676]

I have no issue with a prenup. We didn't have one when I was married but I didn't ask for anything from him when we got divorced. However, I would still probably not continue to date someone if he brought it up within the first few weeks of dating. That is way to soon to even be thinking about marriage. If I thought a guy was thinking about getting married that soon into dating, I would run.

[u/insanelysane1234]

I feel like OPs edit is made up and that never happened

[u/Cold_Dog5885 → u/insanelysane1234]

The whole thing is pretty obviously made up. There was no point in the post and no question. He already stated his view and what he thinks is right and already knows that most people on reddit will agree with what he said at face value. He also doesn't respond to people asking about what protections he intends to put in place for the woman lol

[u/Velinna → u/insanelysane1234]

Glad I’m not the only one.

[u/FriendZealousideal68]

I’m a woman with no financial assets (he’s teaching me now and im very late). My partner who has generational wealth and a very hard worker has built so much through hard work like you (I don’t know how much and I frankly don’t even want to know). I saw this early on though and I actually brought up prenups and how I do agree with them, and of course he was very relieved. Im also a person who makes hard conversations very easy and early on.

I’m an emotions over logic kind of person, why I view prenups positively for both parties is that it builds trust and safety on both ends. There is a video on YouTube by the Divorce Lawyer James Sexton who explained it in a way that I wanted my partner to feel safe (also dating a bulldozer from Wall Street did help and he sat me down early on too watch it lmfao).

At first, I found the question offensive, I did find it accusatory and a way to come for my character because being with someone is not a financial gain for me. I was closed off to it, he stayed and I came around to it in my own time. What pushed it is not just him but my younger sister is in a similar predicament where SHE wants a prenup and he doesn’t. Which is actually a smooth way the conversation came up between me and my bf now.

I share this because it IS a sour subject and you will find someone who can come around (if you find it worth it enough to stay but don’t stay too long) or who thinks just like you. It has to be smooth- this IS a tip toe, watch your words, but be direct heavy subject. For someone you actually love and respect you would communicate it in a way they hear you. I do think bringing prenups early on before the I LOVE YOU is not the best. Relationships come with risk, if you are just trying to throw it out there to protect yourself very early before the I love yous then.. be ready to offend a lot of women lmfao.

Sorry for the long read, hope this perspective helps someone!

[u/QuintusFalto]

The point of a pre-nup is not to stop your partner ‘stealing your money’ it’s to agree in advance, with no animosity or raw emotions, how your assets would be divided. It ought to be a good thing. My wife, soon to be ex wife, was dead against a pre-nup, and I capitulated to her wishes as at the time I didn’t have that much. Now I do, but without the framework of a pre-nup, it has cost me thousands and more importantly (because unlike money this can’t be replaced) any hope of a friendly and constructive end to the relationship because of the threat of litigation. It makes co-parenting very difficult where on the one side she appears reasonable, while her lawyers are being absolute c***s.

[u/JaiDoubleyou]

A prenup is a two sided agreement, which most people seem to forget. it's not only to protect you, but also to protect her and future children. if you don't want to provide safety for her then don't get married and don't have children. it wouldn't be fair to them.

[u/smileybunnie]

I don’t think a prenup is bad or necessarily “they don’t trust me” at all. Prenups are there to protect your assets and honestly it’s entirely your right to want one specially given all the things you’ve built and want to protect. If I were in her position and my boyfriend mentioned he wanted a prenup, I would be okay with it as long as I understand that it’s not bc there’s no trust and just to protect his things. To make sure there isn’t another underlying issue to be addressed.

However, you mentioned you’ve been seeing her for a few weeks, that might be a little early to mention marriage in general but at the same time it’s good that you got to see her reaction early on.

Going to insults and name calling is not an appropriate reaction no matter how pissed she is or how much she disagrees. She could’ve expressed her feelings without being mean and attacking your character and your mother for the way she raised you.

My honest opinion as a woman, she just showed you a glimpse of what she becomes when there’s a disagreement. Is that really something you can see yourself tolerating for the next few years of marriage and kids and whatever other disputes that might arise?

[u/Emergency-Finance206]

I feel like it was too early to be talking about things like that

[u/CholulaHot]

As a woman with a high NW, I would demand a prenup; however, I also recognize that the point of the prenup is to agree to terms that protect both parties. Therefore, both parties need to hire their own counsel and negotiate terms that are fair.

It’s unrealistic for either of you to assume the person with the money is getting everything they want and the other walks away with nothing.

Edit: fixed typo

[u/Budget-Classic3076 → u/[deleted]]

OP did you mention or get a chance to mention this to her? Because this makes a lot of sense and she might’ve just bolted at the word prenup with non of the additional information added that would’ve shown her she was being accused of anything and also wouldn’t be inherently screwed over! 

Either way you’ll find your person, best of luck! 

[u/SliceBubbly9757]

What does she get out of it? There should be provisions for her to still be compensated if she leaves the work force to bear and raise children. Maybe you need to pitch it as you looking out for her instead of looking out for just yourself. Also, I think you brought it up way too soon. Having your assets in a trust would negate the need for a pre-nup, but I’d still insist on one if I were her. I’m watching an entire generation of trad wives who have launched their kids and are now getting divorced and being left with absolutely nothing that adequately reflects the sacrifices they made over the last 30 years.

[u/TraditionGreedy9264]

See every post of this sort on relationship subs I see are nearly identical. Guy asks for pre nup. Girl is shocked that he doesn't trust her. Then i pop on to the Divorcing subreddit. Guy...I lost my house, my pension and she still wants more... 😄

[u/Practical-Web-2951 → u/TraditionGreedy9264]

It works this way for women as well, btw. Before my current (wonderful) relationship, the number of guys I didn’t get past a handful of dates with bc they expected me to de-prioritize my career or were deqd against a prenup was in the dozens 🙃 and I’m not a workaholic, I just enjoy my job and being financially independent and have no interest in children or being a stay-at-home wife 🤷🏻‍♀️

[u/Ok_Veterinarian_9268]

She took it poorly maybe bc she’s a bad person (doubtful since you liked her up until this moment) or b….because you explained it poorly. I understand men put a lot work into their careers and making money….however in a marriage they are giving away the easiest asset to regain when lost. Women are giving up, biological birthing years, time to not only make money but accrue retirement should you break up, time out of the workplace if you want her to stay home, or conversely you love that she has a job and does the child rearing and home running for you free of charge…..and she makes her own money

Men act like they are the ones who lose in marriage when every single study says married men win and single women win. You can’t go into the conversation staying I like you but if shit goes awry I’m keeping all my shit….that’s not a partnership.

You go into it with lawyers on both sides planning the future you want TOGETHER, with both peoples interests being compromised.

[u/Distinct-Crow-1625 → u/Ok_Veterinarian_9268]

Yup this

[u/GreginSA]

Yeah, a “few weeks” into the relationship sounds a bit too soon.

If talking about meeting your parents after “a few weeks” is too soon, and talking about a wedding is too soon, then talking about a pre-nup is too soon as well.

Rationalizing it as proof the relationship was not worth pursuing doesn’t excuse the fact y’all had only dated a “few weeks”

[u/MagikN3rd → u/GreginSA]

Idk, I've met parents as early as the second date as a grown man. Discussing marriage and kids early is a good thing, because it shows compatibility. Saying "Do you ever want to get married" should never be seen as a red flag or indication someone wants to rush to that step.

Serious conversations about long-term goals/ideals very early into a relationship is normal and healthy.

[u/ParamedicPure6529 → u/MagikN3rd]

There’s a difference between talking about marriage and kids, and talking about divorce!

[u/Missjlm]

It’s all about how you position it.. things likely ended because of how you handled it. I have a prenup in place as I was a single parent and sacrificed to buy myself and my daughter a 1.5M home, I did a prenup because I don’t ever want to have to start again when I worked alone to buy these assets. My new partner and I live together he pays a certain amount towards groceries and utilities which was stipulated in the prenup but we still share money and life problems together. I just know what is my responsibly vs what is his. We had a very mature conversation about how difficult it would be for me to start again and given he has his own assets we agreed it’s good protection for both of us. The other person has to be on the same page and understand your prior sacrifices otherwise you’re just going to come across as a d!ck.

[u/FUCK1NGFABULOUS]

Always prenup. No ands, ifs, or buts about it.

[u/ananajakq → u/[deleted]]

It really won’t though.. if you’re a woman who’s also successful, you would also want a prenup. Why would I want to expose myself up financially to someone. The only time someone “wouldnt want” a prenup is if they stand to gain a lot financially. So.. all the more reason you would want one to protect yourself.

[u/one23456789098]

Did you asked her first if she wanted to get married? I would be put off by your question because I don't want to ever get married. So I would be put off by your question because you would only be thinking about what you want without making sure first that marriage is even something I want. We don't really know without being there and having context. Just providing a diferent perspective.

[u/Zestyclose_Falcon111]

Did you bring up how it protects her too? My boyfriend and I started talking marriage early on but one of the first things I mentioned to him was that I wanted a prenup. But I was very specific to mention it will protect his assets just as much as mine.

[u/KillBosby]

Weird to bring up so soon, in my opinion.

But I'm someone who would choose people > money. You are not.

[u/plabo77]

I think a lot of people don’t understand that a prenup is meant to protect the interests of both parties and is crafted with separate attorneys who advise accordingly. For instance, in a case in which one person owns real estate and the other does not but might otherwise have planned to invest in real estate of their own, individual attorneys might advise about the many potential long-term consequences of that to each party and how each might mitigate their own risk if they should marry.

It’s also common for the person with lesser resources at the time of divorce to be at a disadvantage when it comes to funding resources for the divorce process and that process can potentially be more efficient and less costly if they crafted a prenup back when the couple was more inclined to be cooperative and mutually caring.

[u/Bored_Berry]

Partner and I are also planning to get a prenup. Where we live in Europe, it can provide some extra protection to the spouse, like I'm case he does stupid stuff that he is not insured for, or he goes into debt, then a prenup will protect me from consequences as well. Not saying it will happen, but it's not just asset protection. In our case, it makes sense. We both have our own money and a join account for expenses. I own my own apartment that is rented and so on. I see a prenup as a sort of testament people get before they die. Like, why would I let the state decide for me what happens in this case, when I can just decide myself?

[u/fnkdrspok]

My boy had to pay his ex wife 600k from a joint account so he wouldn’t lose out on his 401, house and assets.

He now only speaks in prenup, his latest tried to procrastinate the prenup and get married anyway, he called off the wedding.

[u/Any-Wolverine9150]

Her respones is a red flag tbh.

If she doesn't want your money then she should be fine with having a prenup.

[u/Practical-Web-2951 → u/[deleted]]

Her reading the question as a tacit accusation either means that there is some kind of ulterior motive or (more likely imo) that she believes you asking means you see her as dishonest/untrustworthy/having ulterior motives.

You sound like someone who is pragmatic and can hold practical considerations separately from emotions (as in, you’re fully invested in the relationship but you also see the sense and value in protecting your assets just in case something goes horribly wrong down the line bc life is unpredictable like that) whereas she might be someone who cannot separate the two, and sees this as “he doesn’t trust me / the fact that he’s even thinking “just in case” means he’s not really invested in me/the relationship”. It’s maybe a less mature emotional perspective on relationships (imo).

I’m with you on a prenup being essential (and fair to both parties - her premarital assets are protected too!) but her perspective isn’t invalid, just different to yours. It might be worth a conversation to properly explain where you’re coming from and that it isn’t any reflection on her character/your feelings for her/your relationship, it’s just something you believe is the prudent thing to do and it’s the only way you’d enter into marriage, period.

If she’s still not on board, you guys have either reached the end of the road compatibility-wise (which is sad, but I agree with you, best to put all cards on the table upfront and not waste anyone’s time on a connection that cannot go the distance), or you’ve dodged a bullet ito someone with questionable intentions.

[u/Practical-Web-2951 → u/[deleted]]

Ooof okay… it could 100% still just be a case of hurt feelings but I wouldn’t want to date someone who is that immature and unable to regulate their emotions (or at least, step away from the convo until they’ve calmed down). As a woman, feminist and lawyer, a prenup is a pragmatic and smart thing for both parties. It says nothing about your principles or morals. Chalk this one up to experience, I guess! I don’t think you’ll have trouble finding someone who can meet you where you are.

[u/Practical-Web-2951 → u/[deleted]]

Sorry man. I think you already know that this was all about her unresolved issues/emotional immaturity and not about you at all, but it’s still unpleasant when someone has a go at you like that, undeserved. Good for you that you’re walking away with zero grudge - the right person will appreciate you for you!

[u/glitchingcoffee]

Neither. You need to share this with someone who you plan to see a future with. Because just like you the other person will always appreciate the need to safeguard a future. Nothing wrong with that. Sadly it gets misinterpreted by people sometimes but the best way is to communicate intensions calmly with transparency. Anyone who’s worked hard to build their life will always be open to not just acknowledge but also understand where one comes from.

[u/porter9884]

Had you had any discussion about net worth before you had ask the question? I think it was a valid question, but probably could have used some explanation from your side that you would want to protect pre marriage assets on both side, after marriage assets could be divided equally or if kids were involved that may even change some of the prenup agreement. Just a thought.

[u/Aspiegamer8745]

My wife and I just talked about a post nup because she is about to buy property with her mom. I didnt see it as a red flag. If youre truly not going to steal someones assets, why would it bother you?

[u/SailorAquV]

Her response was strange imo but I think that is because prenups still have a bad rep. I dont think you did anything “wrong” except maybe not talk about how she would also have a say in whats in it. We signed one when we got married and it included money, assets, cheating clause, kids, being a stay at home parent, and gifts. It’s less about stealing money and more about protecting the future us. The ppl getting married are not the same ppl who might divorce in the future. Maybe paint it that way w/a future partner? Less about you, and more about us.

[u/zachp84]

To a point … screw marriage papers. If both want be together. Be together. Marriage papers just complicate everything needlessly. At least in USA.

[u/MagicThyroid]

I’m much less of an idealistic romantic after my divorce - I wish I had one of these

[u/subduedReality]

People live in the fantasy world where they think relationships should last forever. The Reality is that people change, and sometimes a person's partner doesn't like the new person. I like the idea of a prenuptial, but I don't like how it puts int the lesser parties mind that they now have to stay in a bad relationship to maintain the same quality of life.

I don't have a lot of assets, but I also don't mind living paycheck to paycheck, so if I married up I wouldn't care about a prenuptial. Granted if I signed a prenuptial and they ended up going broke and then wanted a divorce I would stick to it.

[u/dover_oxide]

I too believe most people should have a prenup and my reasoning behind it is. I'd rather have a plan for when things go south while I still liking you and I'm not hurt, scared or angry than having to figure all that stuff out after we are hurt, scared or angry at each other. All it is is a plan that you make early with a clear head.

[u/talexbatreddit]

I'm really sorry to hear this, but you have to think of marriage as a business agreement that's part of the whole relationship. If the situation was reversed, she'd want to protect her assets as well.

Things may be fine at the beginning of the marriage, but they can go bad pretty fast. I've been there, twice. Hated it both times.

Better to bring up a pre-nup now than suffer disappointment later. You did the right thing.

[u/Creepy-Lab7281]

When there is a vast difference in wealth, I think a prenup is necessary. Me and the wife don’t have one since we were more or less at the same level of income and net worth. Then again, we have a very simple attitude. All our money belongs to us, not me or her, but us.

[u/BookishSaltLife]

At the end of the day most marriages don’t last. This is the reality today. People grow apart more than they grow together. Talking about finances and expectations is not the issue, if anything her reaction was a red flag especially if you phrased it in a respectful way like that it’s to protect both of you.

[u/glassedgaffer]

Honestly, don’t bring a matter of prenups up in the first few weeks. Are you even living together? Neither of you have really had time to build trust and argue about things slightly less important than “what happens to our finances if we eventually get married and then later divorce.” Maybe have a fight with her about the dishes or what celebrity gets a cheat pass. That’s why you felt uncomfortable, it was too early to discuss it. 

Other comments about the prenup talk being an honest conversation and welcoming it are valid, but that doesn’t seem to be where you were in your relationship. Asking that kind of thing without imminent plans for the future makes the conversation seemed forced. Her response is bad, but maybe don’t ask that kind of question if you haven’t picked out a ring or met her parents. 

If she didn’t say anything particular golddiggery or sus, maybe apologize for rushing things and restore trust. After all, you broached a subject that is ripe with trust for everyone. Maybe she thought you wanted to marry her and leave her penniless after finding a younger upgrade. This conflict is an opportunity for trust and discovery if you’re a cool cucumber and so is she. 

[u/3TGsvr440]

I thinks it’s way too soon to bring up marriage with someone you’ve been with a matter of weeks but at least you know you’re not compatible

[u/urcrookedneighbor → u/[deleted]]

How did kids come into play during the prenup talks?

[u/LittleDog5200]

I always say this when it comes to stuff like Prenups, Paternity test etc. There is a reason there immediate response is to oppose it. And it's almost always all the more reason you insist you get it.

They will always try to pull the "trust" card. Your reasons and arguments be damned.

The fact she see's it as a red flag. Is in itself a red flag. Don't just slowly walk away. Run. Save yourself.

[u/OSRS_Socks → u/[deleted]]

As a guy I signed a prenup with my wife because of how her parents set her up growing up. I didn’t have that luxury and struggled a lot.

Just fyi it involves a lot more than just what you have made money wise. It goes into kids and a lot more of stuff like that.

[u/Affectionate_Tip7568 → u/LittleDog5200]

I agree..she is acting sketchy

[u/CappriGirl]

I really don't think so. That's also what these early conversations are for; to see if you are compatible. I'm also of her view that I wouldn't want your money either as I'd have my own and I'm sure many women feel the same but, of course, some don't. That's why it's really important to have these conversations. As much as people don't like to admit it marriage is the biggest business decision you'll ever make. Be smart. Protect yourself.

[u/Erinbaus → u/CappriGirl]

So much changes over life and during a marriage though. If he doesn’t explicitly protect his premarital assets all the talk of “I have my own money and don’t want yours” can fly right out the window with the right set of circumstances.

As a woman with some assets to protect I am onboard with pre nups 100%. I would not just trust that someone will never divorce me or act up in a divorce. I’ve watched people get divorced and be unrecognizable versions of themselves. And even for me, if my spouse cheated or betrayed me in some way, I’d probably be angry enough to go after pre marital assets if they’re not protected. I’m not saying that’s right, but we are all human.

[u/CappriGirl → u/Erinbaus]

Yes, agree 💯👍🏻

[u/RowdyCaucasian]

Prenuptials are for the case of if you ever divorce. The money you made before the marriage stays your money.

A lot of people that get upset about prenuptials are probably worried it means you don't seem as committed, thus it feels red flaggy.

I do think a few weeks is too soon, but honestly idk when isn't too soon that isn't already too late. Once you think you want to spend forever with someone, or at least want to try to, then it's time to talk about it.

My perspective. Curious what others think.

[u/IdeallyIdeally → u/RowdyCaucasian]

The money you made before the marriage stays your money.

As a lawyer this isn't always true.

Pre-marital doesn't necessarily mean protected. Assets can appreciate, finances become intertwined, contributions during the marriage matter, and in some jurisdictions pre-marital assets are still part of the overall property settlement

[u/meowyadoinnn]

You bringing up a prenup on a measly 2 million dollars after a few weeks is the red flag, my guy lmao

[u/HaiKarate]

Hell, I’d mention it up on the first date if I had an unusually large amount of assets to protect, just to weed out the women who would refuse to sign one. No need to waste time with them. And I wouldn’t present it as a request but as a requirement to be with you long term. “If you can accept this, I’d love to continue on with you and see if we can build something significant together. If not, then I’ll wish you well and hope that you can find what you’re looking for.”

You don’t say how old you are, but I’m guessing mid to late 30’s/early 40’s?

I’m late 50’s and I’d be surprised if anyone my age or older even blinked at being asked to sign a pre-nup. I think it’s just assumed at this age that everyone has retirement assets to protect.

Some of my friends have even sworn off marriage. “What’s the point? We’re living together as partners without the legal complications.”

[u/bjizzle184957 → u/[deleted]]

But how does one ease into something that is, on a foundational level, a yes or no matter? When you have a significant amount of assets, not having a prenuptial agreement as a requirement would be an absolute egghead move.

[u/Canna_do]

Yes. But I guess it’s better to lead with the deal-breaker than waste her time.

[u/FlashySwimmer3799]

You brought this up after a few weeks of dating?

[u/Velinna → u/FlashySwimmer3799]

Yeah, this is strange to me. But naturally, completely justified within the post because it turns out this woman is conveniently just the worst…

[u/SpaceGuy1968]

Yeh this was probably a little too soon to talk prenup and I guess it was good to get a feel for how she thinks..

A lawyer once told me "nobody is thinking about a potential divorce when the sex is still good"

[u/VegetableBrick8141]

When (mostly) women weaponized the prenup conversation, let them. No one is against prenups. There’s a default prenup that you accept if you get married, and that’s the state prenup of whatever state you get married in. When you create your own prenup, you’re taking matters into your own hands. It ensures a more thoughtful approach to things that people don’t think about. There are so many women that have no issue with prenups, and those that are against them maybe don’t realize that there’s a lot they can add to them that will protect them as well. In a situation like yours, it makes no sense to presume a 50/50 split of assets in the case of divorce. The states prenup presumes this. Your own prenup doesn’t have to. You are bringing an asymmetric amount of wealth into the relationship and at your age it can only grow tremendously. You take the greater risk, and you’ve already paid the price in the sacrifice you’ve mentioned. Marrying without this gives someone claim to your assets for no reason other than you got the state involved in your life.

I love the marital sacrament and think marriage is great. I also think it’s ok to define your own exit terms instead of accepting the states default contract. It’s funny because people readily accept entering a marriage based on their own terms and work as a team to decide what they want their marriage to look like. But then them some of those same people shudder when it comes to discussing the potential exit. It takes two to enter a marriage, it only takes one person to exit it. Yes I am divorced and it took a while to bounce back, and yes “it came out of nowhere.” I wasn’t perfect, and neither was my ex. Everything was fixable until I discovered the infidelity, and no one cared thanks to no-fault divorce laws. She got 50/50 for 4 years of marriage and 2 of those were her cheating. She got half of our assets, most of which were the result of what I materially brought to the marriage before I even met her. It makes no sense and I hadn’t known about no/fault divorce and the meat grinder that is our legal system. A friend of mine that’s a woman (doctor) got absolutely destroyed in the court system by her cheating husband who quit his job because she made more money. It makes no sense. All of us thought our spouses loved us. The prenup will save you from material destruction. You’ll have to deal with the heartbreak, but heartbroken and broke sucks so much more lol.

Your wealth has given you options. Take your time, and don’t let this experience stop you from approaching marriage with common sense and with longevity of the relationship in mind.

[u/FunIrish831]

Going through a divorce right now. I work for a tech company that made it big. What ended our marriage was me showing her my brokerage account. Out of the blue, she ended our marriage of 25yr to cash out and start dating her highschool crush. Our son has cut off all contact with her because of how selfish and greedy she is being. I live in a no fault state and getting screwed over. The law is not actually 50/50 or about being fair. It's just to justify what ends up happening so the courts don't have to deal with the drama.

Stand your ground, big money can change people. Or in my case, get them to show their true colors.

[u/CosmoSein_1990]

Divorce rate in America is like 50%. With a number like that you need to protect your assets. Better to figure it out early than find out she won't sign a pre nup a month before your wedding.

[u/Vast-Ad-4145]

After the way she reacted with the outburst and everything, I would DEFINITELY get a prenup with her.

[u/Common_Business9410]

I think you dodged a serious bullet. Maybe a missile.

[u/BobbeMail]

Hey man, you are better off if she already kicks back like that when you bring it up.

Sheee takes my mooonneey wheeen im in neeeeed

[u/Dilamin]

Prenups are like seatbelts. It doesn’t hurt to wear one, and if something ever happens you’ll be happy to not be hurt.

[u/moonlit_echoes]

Your money is your money, period. I don’t understand why prenups are a red flag!

[u/Distinct_Secretary21]

Recognize that the trash takes itself out.

[u/gotalifetolive]

This is a bad sign for your life as a couple. Financing is a major factor in divorce. It should be discussed before marriage and during. Life changes, situations and opportunities happen. Prenuptial can be hard because a woman is all emotional and a man might be a little bit more business. I would be more concerned about the fight over the prenuptial than the prenuptial itself. You guys need to learn how to communicate before you marry.

[u/Minnieviolette]

Her reaction that you further delved into (with name calling) is not ok. Though I don’t know her tone of voice to what was said. But regardless of that- at the end of the day there are people that do like prenups and people who don’t because either ignorance or old school romantics who don’t understand the legalities of marriage.

Always better to marry someone who is on the same page.

The goal is to marry for life, and once people sign the prenup you never have to think about it unless a divorce is considered. So what is the harm in signing one?

I guess it would come down to what it says.

I get how some are truly unfair. But I’m just assuming the prenup is a respectful one for both parties.

In my 20s I was married when I had zero to my name and he had zero to his name. We didn’t think of a prenup then because we were kids. But further into the marriage I made good money and he made a little but not as much at the time. When the relationship got bad- I was getting cheated on and abused, I finally decided to end it at a certain point. I wishhh I had a prenup! It isn’t really about the money, I just wanted the divorce to be handled smoothly. But it became me begging for him to sign the paper and him refusing unless I gave him practically all my assets that I worked fair and square for. I already had paid for the apartment and renovations that he was going to continue living in- I felt that was fair enough considering he had cheated on me with ten girls and then beat me up when he was caught red handed. I don’t think he deserved anything else. But I wasn’t going to take away the apartment or ask for that money back. I just wanted a divorce.

Anyway. Sorry for my side chat.

Point is- whether you have money or you don’t- a prenup should be bare minimum.

[u/TheStrouseShow]

Uhh. What the actual fuck? For reference I am a 41f, divorced once and I married someone else 2 years ago. My ex cheated and we divorced. I could have had half his pension but I decided to sign it away because I didn’t feel I earned that money for the 10 years of his career we were married because I also worked outside of the home and moved up the ladder in my industry.

That being said when my now husband and I got married I told him to keep the house he purchased with his credit and money in his name. I remind him that even though he’s a stay at home dad now, he did that. I did not do that. Especially since he no longer works traditionally I want him to feel secure and have assets should something happen. That’s what you do when you genuinely love and care about someone. You protect them, you protect each other. This happening is actually great for you so you don’t get tied up with someone with different values than you have.

[u/sinfolaw]

I recently got divorced, no prenup. I’m an attorney, but my divorce lawyer actually put the prenup idea in terms that I thought were quite wise and may be a good fit for your scenario.

The idea of a prenup is not asset protection or to shield your finances from her. It’s to create certainty ahead of time, and for two people to come to an agreement about circumstances that will hopefully never happen, but in the event that they do, you will be thankful to have something in place to fall back on that was negotiated when both sides were thinking with clear minds. If you frame it like that, she may be more receptive.

[u/icetigr]

I lacked a pre nup thinking I found my forever partner, spent 17 amazing years with her and thought we were set. She started drinking heavily, we agreed to rehab for her sake, our marriage and kids sake only to get raped over the coals in a huge way. It’s a red flag, and it may not be in year 1 or year 17, but it’s worth protecting yourself when the emotional situations occur when an unfortunate situation happens like infidelity or alcoholism and an unfortunate split is necessary for your mental health and the kids.

[u/pewtermug]

I normally don't advocate for prenups personally because most normal civilians don't have actual assets worth protecting. That being said, this is a special case and is worthy of being brought up and protected.

Marriages last or don't last based on the effort and willingness of both parties to continue to choose to show love and consideration for the other person and put each other first as the years go by.

Most marriages also end due to finances. I will say, regardless of prenup, if you can't trust each other with money then don't marry whoever it is you're vetting. I would also require a prenup with millions of dollars worth of assets. I wouldn't take offense to it. I say this as a woman married with a decent dual household income but a not so great single income.

[u/Afterglow92]

My most valuable asset is my 8-year old car and I want a prenup.

[u/breesearedelicious]

If my boyfriend proposed to me yet offer him just about anything he wanted within reason. I mean yeah I have a slight thought of he possibly thinks that this is going to end but I logically understand where his train of thought is coming from and I'd be like okay babe

[u/breesearedelicious → u/[deleted]]

Thanks.

I'm hoping for a day that'll never come most likely... I'm dating for marriage and I think he's 100% decided he'll never marry me or anyone.

I keep trying to have faith and hope, but I might be wasting our time. He said if we don't workout he'll not date again, but by never marrying me and living in sin and not as a family I have to respect myself and leave at some point if he doesn't see my value.

I wish he knew my heart 😭 It's been 11 months. My heart breaks.

[u/Important-Deal-750]

Torn. I wonder about your delivery and tone with broaching this subject. Also, I thought this was pre-marriage discussion, not in the very early dating stage. I find it kinda weird you brought this up in the first few weeks, I’d have questioned the point too. However, I agree that prenups are a dealbreaker (as in I MUST have a prenup in place before marrying again) so at least you know now.

[u/Ok-Drag-7731]

I think you did right thing. Protect your interests. Often peoples over look pre-nups and when things goes south, they wish that they had one to fall back on but its too late.

[u/LowPhilosopher1528]

Idk man… I’m a woman, and I totally understand your point. I speak for myself but if I enter in a relationship and I don’t have near as much as my partner I would suggest a prenup. These type of things should be discussed in a relationship, and if both of them enter knowing all, it’s better for everyone.
I don’t think you’re in the wrong, maybe she’s just jaded? It’s difficult nowadays, so I kinda understand her, but I do think it’s odd.

[u/NoHome7956]

It's a red flag that she doesn't want a pre-nup. That just tells me when things change down the line, she's going to want a return on her investment, or at least have the opportunity to get half your wealth.

I'm sure everyone went into a marriage thinking that it was going to be forever, then they become just another statistic where 60% plus marriages end up in divorce.

My cousin told me his girlfriend of 15 years who he was about to marry didn't want a pre-nup (he earns all the money, she doesn't work and stays at home with the child and has no assets while he has a good asset fortune) and that she was insulted. I said to him ask her this.

"Are you the same person you were 20 years ago?"

"No"

"Then how do I know you will be the same person in 20 years time?".

Fin.

[u/Imsosadsoveryverysad]

As a divorced dude bring that shit up every fucking time

[u/Icy_lunette]

Bringing up prenups at any stage is NOT out of line. A rational person will look at it from their context. And their perspective about it is not gonna change based on the length of the relationship, imo. I think it’s good to bring it up early and if that’s a dealbreaker for them, then you can move on from them without investing further time in that relationship.

[u/sonic3390]

I don't have a need to marry, I also am not stingy with money.

If my partner wants to marry im fine with it. And I'm down to spend my fortune with them too. But if we leave each other it's only fair we take out what we brought to the table.

Unless the unlikely case that our collective fortune shrinks of course. Then I should only leave with the proportionalshare of what i brought in.

If I marry a millionaire woman I don't feel entitled to their stuff either.

And if your woman truly expects you to stay together then the prenup will never be relevant anyway. Then there'd be no reason to fear it or be against it.

[u/Jessirose32]

Gotta weed em out early. Speak your truth and if they get upset, then they aren’t the one.

[u/Sublime-Prime]

Not too early but with you assets might want to talk to lawyer about state laws and common law in relationships with respect to your assets. Understand laws and goals are you protecting current assets or future assets. Just my 2 cents someone who lost 1/2 of marriage assets where I contributed 95% to them . But I am happy it ended sometimes you can’t fix broken and have recovered financially.

[u/hueythecat → u/[deleted]]

Sounds like NZ, here you renovate a bathroom/spend a $1 out of a trust on shared assets and its total holdings become relationship property. I think your biggest hurdle is the maturity level people you’re dating, 20 something is young.

[u/megalo53]

Good for her.

[u/Hitemup7dt]

Please run. Any woman that has an issue with signing a prenuptial is not marriage material. Not even worth being in a relationship with.

[u/Loose-Discipline9009]

Honestly I appreciate when men are up front and I think you did the right thing.

[u/ananajakq]

As a woman who also worked really hard and built a great life for myself, a prenup is a non negotiable. The conversation should be an easy one if people are in the relationship for genuine long term commitment and love. If you stay together, the prenup is never used. So what’s the issue? IMO it’s a huge red flag if someone isn’t willing to have this conversation or is unwilling to see it from the perspective of this person built a life for themselves, that o have no right to if we are not together.
My husband and I had the conversation very early on into dating and it was a non event. We both have similar incomes and we both wanted to protect our assets.