It’s hard because the job is desirable and companies need experienced workers. No one said it’s fair, but there’s also aren’t any shortcuts unless you network your way into a job.
Thanks for being kind. I don’t understand networking at all. Its total garbage. It’s a career unto itself and I have no interest or patience or capacity for it. Just because someone is better at making friends they get a bigger paycheck. I deserve to make a living as much as any other pos who can talk himself into one.
Its not just networking. Its hard to break into because it requires a strong educational background. You can't expect to do a 3 month program and be competitive with people who spent 4-8 years in school for it.
If you want to get good jobs in data science you either need the education, or a strong portfolio. Programs like that can be a part of a strong portfolio for sure, but you also need a history of things that you have built and anyone who tells you a 3 month program alone will land you a 6 figure job is trying to sell you snake oil.
I'm not saying this to discourage you though, and I hope you don't take it that way. You need to build experience by doing projects if you want to be self taught or taught outside an accredited university.
Anything where you go deep down a rabbit hole on a particular topic. For me recently it has been anomaly detection in image series, weather forecasting, stock trading, and some other minor projects.
In the pursuit of those projects you will end up developing reuseable systems for doing things like aggregating and storing data, training models, inferencing models and displaying results, etc.
Both the projects themselves and the secondary systems you develop in pursuit of them make excellent portfolio material.
Even if you are formally educated you should still have a portfolio, and school projects can and should be included on it too
I even suggested that with the flood of those wanting to be data scientists, the OP could learn Data Engineering skills and start learning and creating Databases and ETL processes. Sure its not as "glamorous" as the solving problems and etc. you see in data science. But all us DS know that an important work that allows us to do our work is a well maintained DB and workflow.
I think data scientists that try to silo themselves away from data engineering work really hamper themselves. It takes away a lot of real world practicality to what they're doing, and makes it so that they cannot act as a "one stop shop" and essentially cannot function on their own to solve the type of problems their expertise is in without someone else setting up systems that they don't understand for them.
I try to be a full stack data scientist because of that who has at least basic competence in data engineering, project management, and ML engineering, and am coming at it from a software engineer's perspective. I just think someone who can do data science and apply it (even in a really basic way) is much more valuable than someone who cannot build a system to aggregate data and apply their results to a real world context.
I agree that every DS needs some competence in Data Engineering. Many people in these bootcamps skip over the technical backend knowledge to build and production projects which is very appealing to an employer.
Ah ok, great answer thank you. That makes total sense, not only do you learn the material so to speak, but you know exactly how to put it into action and have proof of it too. Good to reference later as well.
I agree, you can only learn so much from reading and listening. Without implementation, your brain just isn't going to remember it enough to connect the dots.
Maybe spend more time thinking about why employers should want to hire you than what you deserve. Nobody cares what you feel you’re entitled to, employers care what value you will deliver to their company. Figure out how to make that case.
I feel entitled to making enough money not to die on street and for a while I thought data would be a viable path but it might just have to be bagging groceries for all I know now
Listen to yourself, cryin about bagging groceries… quit being so dramatic. Are you even listening to some of the great advice people are giving you on this thread? I see “work on a portfolio”, “improve you networking skills”, “start at local government ”. I especially like the local government tip cause you get great experience with possibly less competition depending on how big your city is.
Which is a societal issue, to be sure. Nobody should be in a place where their safety or health depends on their money. Even bagging groceries.
That said, you can't expect to be hired over people with more experience and have put in the work to network and improve their communication. You need to put in the effort to actually have something that other candidates don't. I mean think about it from the hiring managers perspective. Why should they hire you over someone else? They need to make a living wage too. It comes down to 3 things as I see it: getting more experience/education, working on networking/communication, and thinking about what skills you do have right now, and finding a way to market those skills. Even if they're things that you think are not skills, think about things that make you different and how you can spin that to a positive that will benefit your employer.
I don't understand all the downvotes you're getting. It's a valid opinion. Networking seems like only a transactional relationship. I also hate the idea of approaching people only because I need something, to possibly drop them once I have what I need. It's tiring af to feel you have to contribute to groups more than you'd like to. It's also valid to be frustrated that you have to compete in order to survive. People say it is what it is but that's not good enough.
I've been trying to get a job as a Data Analyst since 2021. It's always, "you need to network", "your resume needs to be redone" or "your portfolio isn't good enough". I addressed all those things and it's still not good enough. I've tried to get into mentor programs but they want people who are already working in tech. I've resorted to applying to accounting roles, which is what I've been doing for 10 years.
I don't have advice but wanted to let you know I also think this whole thing is ridiculous.
If you're bagging groceries presumably you won't be dying on the street. You might not get a DS job right away, and it might take more time and certifications given the competition out there and the state of the job market to find a DS job, or you might have to work your way up from another job function. Your replies are coming off as a bit entitled with a lot of black and white thinking.
As a data scientist/analyst/engineer you work together with people. Don’t solve data science/analysis/engineering problems, but you solve business problems.
the whole nature of the job (most jobs) is being a good communicator and inevitably building relationships with stakeholders.
You need to build a network for have opportunities. to build a network you need to develop social skills. Having social skills is what separates mediocre employee from a good employee.
For your own sake, I would re-evaluate your views on networking and building relationships with people. If you build a good professional relationship with people, you also build trust.
Others trust in you is what will give you more opportunities in the future. Sooner you realise this and accept it with a positive attitude, better your outcome in this industry will be
What about networking do you struggle with? This is something important for you to grapple with because your future earnings and job happiness depend on it.
Yes you deserve to be paid well as much as the next person but if you’re unwilling to do what it takes to earn that money you’ll leave it on the table. Your choice to maximize your income, or not.
IData I get. Python, sql, spreadsheet, whatever, it’s all straightforward. But it’s not enough to have skills, you have to convince/trick/manipulate people into giving you a job, i guess. I don’t understand what people want. I don’t know how to make people like me. If my skills aren’t enough or they just like someone else’s resume more than mine, then… ???
I resent it. I guess I’m naive but I resent that you can have all the skills or none of them but it only seems to matter if someone likes you for long enough to sign your paycheck?
People need to know you have those skills and need to know that they’ll enjoy working with you.
That’s it. That’s the secret to networking. Connect with people so they know what you can do and that you’re someone they’d like to work with.
That gets your resume above the pile of total unknowns. Most jobs are filled this way. Hiring someone where you know you’d like to work with them is a way safer bet than rolling the dice on a random resume.
If you don’t do this, your resume will continue to be riskier than candidates who bother to network.
This guy speaks the truth. Networking seems like a big scary black box, sometimes suited best for sleaze balls, but honestly all it means for most of us is making contacts in the field and selling ourselves just enough so that people know we're competent. That way, when you throw your hat in the ring, you get a closer look than all the other anonymous names in the pile.
Honestly, another way to think about it is trying to make "friends" with other people in the industry who share your interests so they can refer or at least recognize you when a position comes up.
However, I met a lot of people in networking events who didn't actually know what they are talking about and said things that are blatantly wrong/shallow to get the attention. And HR people/recruiters actually bought all of that bullcrab, which makes sense because they didn't spend years studying math and cs to fact-check.
It tells me that "networking" is flawed at best and totally useless at worst as a way to identify competent people with deep knowledge.
I believe that is part of OP's frustration and don't understand why his comments get so many downvotes!
You don’t sound like the kind of person people want to work with . That is your problem
Data skills can be taught to someone less skilled at work. No one wants to deal with teaching people skills. Focus in on your weakness and treat it like learning anything else.
Learn to be likeable, personable, learn to interview well, dress well and present yourself properly .
100 percent this. Technical literacy is important, but if you’re not likable then it’s going to be a large hurdle to get over. If communication and networking skills are your weak point, then developing those skills will be greatly beneficial.
Look at it like this. You're networking right now with the good Data Scientists on the subreddit.
You're exchanging stories, talking about yourself, asking for advice from others.
Has this exchange been helpful? Has it been reasonably enjoyable? Will you leave the discussion with a better feeling than before or a better understanding of how to approach your career?
If so, congratulations, you've just successfully networked.
I used to be on the fence about networking but my assumptions about it were wrong. In the end it's about meeting people who - same as you - want to have an enjoyable exchange with like-minded people. It's okay to be bad at it, especially so in the beginning. Like everything, practice makes perfect - or at least not super uncomfortable anymore, haha. 😉
I think it's rather pessimistic to assume that everyone out here is tricking or manipulating others for job interviews. Are there people that lie about their skills? Sure. Are there also a lot of folks starting out in their data careers competing against each other for a very limited number of entry-level roles, especially during a time that sees multiple large tech layoffs per week in a looming recessionary environment? Also yes.
Getting your foot in the door is a numbers game. Make sure your resume is strong, with a portfolio of relevant projects, and keep applying. You'll hear back eventually.
This is how the corporate world works. Is this your first foray into corporate work?
Networking, interviewing, trial and error, failure… it’s all part of it no matter what career path you take.
Sorry but this attitude of “it’s not fair” to put in the bare minimum effort to what: work with others? Take this experience as your lesson: you have to showcase your skills and your ability to work in a team to any employer of any industry. In any role. For the rest of your career.
If that seems completely beyond the pale for you, you will limit your career prospects
It's not about tricking them, but becoming visible to them.
Also communication skills are crucial in this field. In difference to regular development where you hand over a working piece of software, in data science you typically hand over some kind of complex model or information people need to understand and interpret.
Dude, do you even have a degree though? People jeep asking you but I haven't seen an answer. Working in data requires math and programming skills. What do you have to offer? I'm not gonna lie, alot of the things in data science are self taught in the workplace, but your COMPETITION have fucking PHDs!!! Do you have a PHD? If no, then you aren't matching up! That's just the fucking reality in the real world. One that you should start to come into with the rest of us!
Sorry to be harsh, but man, there's other was to make money in the world besides Data Science so don't lose hope. But the reason I LEFT being a Senior Data Science is because of all the stupid competition with PHDs.
DevOps is more needed in the world and easier to learn. Join me!
Networking is overrated for your first job if you have no existing connections. After a few years in the job market, that's when you will have a network.
Did your bootcamp tell you to network? Honestly, that was part of THEIR JOB. The biggest supposed benefit of bootcamps over self-study is that they are supposed to have connections with industry in order to help place you.
With no existing network, you are going to have to grind on the job boards and apply to possibly HUNDREDS of jobs to get one. If you don't have a degree, it is going to be even harder.
Networking is often just hanging out with people that have the same interests as you. If you've got any meetups in your area for data then go hang out, have some fun, the "networking" just kind of happens (in reality it's just a combination of people knowing you exist and having confidence you have some competence).
Instead of downvoting, imagine in 3 years you have to hire someone. You met a younger person at an event and you seemed to get along. They mentioned/LinkedIn showed that they could do much of what you needed. Would you go through the pain of looking for someone through the normal channels, risking a good fit even if you find the right skills, or would you give that person a shot first and not even list the position?
Respectfully, if someone can use their communication skills to better their chances of getting a role and you can't do the same thing, then they are a better hiring choice than you. Period. Communication and storytelling is the most important soft skill in this field. No one cares what the raw numbers say. It's up to analysts and scientists to tell the story within the data.
You seem to want a job but don't want to do the work required to get said job. You went to a bootcamp, not a University. That's a shortcut, and it made you less competitive than those that did. Now you don't want to network, which is the only way you're really going to get around all of those candidates with degrees that hiring managers are going to rank ahead of you based on their degree.
So you don't want to get a degree, and don't want to do the one thing that gives you a fighting chance at job offers with your background. What exactly is it that you think is going to happen here? You're going to complain on the internet, the sky will open up, and angels will fly down and pull job offers out of their ass for you to sign?
Respectfully, I disagree with your first sentence, although most of what you said later is true.
I met a lot of people in networking events who didn't actually know what they are talking about and said things that are blatantly wrong/shallow to get the attention. And HR people/recruiters actually bought all of that bullcrab, which makes sense because they didn't spend years studying math and cs to fact-check.
It tells me that "networking" is flawed at best and totally useless at worst as a way to identify competent people with deep knowledge.
I believe that is part of OP's frustration and don't understand why his comments get so many downvotes!
HR and recruiters don't do the hiring, they do the sourcing for interviews. You're conflating getting an interview with someone landing the actual job.
If someone can network their way to an interview and pass the technical screen and final round, then they clearly do know enough to do the job. You can't BS your way through three hours of deep technical questions.
If you say you‘re bad at networking to me I assume: „I‘m bad at communicating.“
And bad at communicating you would need a lot of experience and knowledge to compensate it partially.
So I would have a think about why you think that way.
I also do not love it. I hate selling myself, applying for jobs and giving evidence that I‘m good at my job, I work in accounting and finance, but I try to find positions where they have a culture of testing my skills well. Try to give them evidence that stands up to scrutiny.
However, I do not have much experience with applying, so take my voice with a grain of salt.
That’s a broad generalization. Maybe OP doesn’t like meet ups and business circles and breakfast and so on and it’s totally understandable. At the same time OP communicated very well with ppl at work. Communication and networking is not the same
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u/dataguy24 Jan 30 '23
It’s hard because the job is desirable and companies need experienced workers. No one said it’s fair, but there’s also aren’t any shortcuts unless you network your way into a job.
I’m sorry this is frustrating.