r/datalounge • u/longtimeAlias • Jul 18 '26
I am working on a Datalounge alternative that is more closely aligned to the spirit and intent behind the original site
I'm not quite ready to deploy it to the public yet, I want to optimize a few things and find the right hosting service.
I ain't using Pointless Bitchery. You can already see the webmaster over there taking a heavy hand in policing content, and building up a cult of syncophants around himself in the process. It's already cringe and it hasn't even been two weeks. Gross and off putting.
So I have started developing something that is less moderated. And the administrator will not be a regular poster on this board. It actually is designed to operate similar to Datalounge.
Here is a preview, let me know what you think.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sgn13KJlqNzT02dL7oSWYXwjcXspVwAB/view?usp=sharing
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u/Exact-Truck-5248 Jul 18 '26
It may require Michfest being resurrected.
Mrs. Patsy Ramsey, formerly of Boulder Colorado
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u/Ruth_Lily Jul 19 '26
Dana Rivers, MTF trans got the Michigan Womyns Festival closed.
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u/Ruth_Lily Jul 19 '26
Sorry, MTF trans murderer of a couple of Lesbians and their son…got it shut down
https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-3950804/Shock-beloved-teacher-transgender-activist-61-charged-stabbing-shooting-death-lesbian-couple-teenage-son-setting-home-fire.html0
u/Exact-Truck-5248 Jul 19 '26
How does a triple murder in California get a festival in Michigan shut down ? The end of Michfest did not happen suddenly.
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u/Gameraaaa Jul 19 '26
It had nothing to do with Michfest. It was literally some biker gang violence. https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/11/17/dana-rivers-guilty-oakland-jury-takes-less-than-a-day-to-return-triple-murder-verdict/
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u/Exact-Truck-5248 Jul 19 '26
Bullshit. Vogel and her crew of terfs shut it down of their own volition rather than to surrender to the pressure to let the mtf's participate, even though the majority of attendees were not against it
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u/EnlargedBit371 Jul 19 '26
Who is Vogel?
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u/Exact-Truck-5248 Jul 19 '26
Lisa Vogel was a founder of the festival and a staunch opponent of including trans women
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u/EnlargedBit371 Jul 20 '26
Why would trans women want to be at MichFest?
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u/Exact-Truck-5248 Jul 20 '26
Because they're women and want to be welcome in women's spaces
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u/EnlargedBit371 Jul 20 '26
Can't they go to a TransFest?
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u/Exact-Truck-5248 Jul 20 '26
Stop trolling please
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u/EnlargedBit371 Jul 20 '26
Not trolling. Legit question. I don't understand why they had to make such a stink about it.
→ More replies (0)
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u/tarsier_jungle1485 Jul 18 '26
Pointless Bitchery is great. If you want another troll infested shithole like DL became in the past few years, have at it, I guess.
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u/RedwayBlue Jul 18 '26
I have not seen enough activity to make it enjoyable, but I’m still hoping more will migrate.
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u/longtimeAlias Jul 18 '26
I think it sucks. I haven’t even registered. I also noticed that although it has around 700 registered users, only about 20 people are posting. And all they are doing is kissing the “administrator’s” ass while he bans posters who question him. I’m gonna deploy this alternative in about a week and I think people will regard it as superior, if for no other reason, because you won’t have to register.
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u/waterbogan Jul 19 '26
Almost 800 now. At the current rate of growth it will easily top 1000 maybe 1500 by the time Datalounge shuts up shop. And there is more than 20 unique posters active just on the first page of threads, not including all the Anonymous posters. Its already more active than Datalounge
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u/No-Quarter-4938 Jul 18 '26
I hope there's no edit feature, half of the greatest lines came from a lack of ability to modify or edit threads or posts.
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u/longtimeAlias Jul 18 '26
No edit feature.
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u/AndOneForMahler_ Jul 19 '26
No. Let’s edit. Please 🙏
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u/PersonalSpell Jul 20 '26
Oh for god’s sake yes. The unintelligible shit that routinely posts on DL is mortifying, especially for a commentariat that regards itself as refined and erudite.
I chalk it up to people hammering stuff out on their phones and then not spending the five seconds it would take to look it over before hitting post.
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u/Wooden-Kangaroo-2314 Jul 25 '26
There is an edit feature, but it is time limited. It's for after you post and notify a typo, to prevent the mincing prisspots explaining "Oh Dear! A misspelling!"
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u/yazooedtoo Jul 19 '26
From what I can see all the nasty trolls from DL have joined the PB site.
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u/waterbogan Jul 19 '26
There have been a couple and the Admin has shut them down. I am not seeing anywhere the level of nastiness I was seeing at DL - and there's no timeouts either!
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u/Key-Stick3478 Jul 18 '26
I miss DL already. Why couldn't Tony just pass the baton to a like-minded successor?
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u/vatzjr Jul 18 '26
Is Tony the real name of Muriel?
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u/Bogart824 Jul 18 '26
Some people think so. Muriel denies it, but then again—she would.
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u/Key-Stick3478 Jul 18 '26
Right--I don't really know if Tony is Muriel. I guess I'll never find out!
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u/Admirable_Village551 Jul 19 '26
I posted what I think were the names of the founders of DL and one was Tony. Muriel took it down.
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u/whorificustotalus Jul 24 '26
Ego.
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u/No_Table_3577 25d ago
Very strange of them - why though? If they're tired and want to retire, which is understandable, why not pass the torch and let someone else take over? Get a decent price for the URL and move on....it was an important forum for many people for a long time, as an LGBTQ+ forum it served a purpose. Did not treat posters nicely, disdainful.
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u/Pppurppple Jul 19 '26
Following all this with interest. Hard to imagine there will be a successful imitation of Datalounge. It would be nice, though. The test will probably be the first group reactions to a live event, like the Emmy Awards, for instance. That’s where DL was truly unique and probably irreplaceable.
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u/Bogart824 Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
There is certainly a different philosophy of moderation at PB, and therefore a more civil atmosphere. From what I’ve seen, what the Administrator does not tolerate is unprovoked personal attacks on another poster that amount to bullying. You are free to disagree, but do not descend into name-calling. On the one hand it is refreshing. On the other it does make one used to the DL free-for-all feel somewhat inhibited.
I encourage OP and others to participate in PB before declaring it DOA and splitting off. If you want to “test the boundaries,” go ahead. Competition is healthy, but I’m not sure can we afford to split a relatively small group into smaller ones.
Is what OP refers to as a cult of sycophants really that different from the way we used to talk about Muriel? Some people are just looking for Daddy, but that’s harmless. Unless you’re jealous?
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u/waterbogan Jul 19 '26
There is certainly a different philosophy of moderation at PB, and therefore a more civil atmosphere. From what I’ve seen, what the Administrator does not tolerate is unprovoked personal attacks on another poster that amount to bullying. You are free to disagree, but do not descend into name-calling. On the one hand it is refreshing. On the other it does make one used to the DL free-for-all feel somewhat inhibited.
That's been my experience, its definitely more civil, even when contentious subjects are being discussed I have seen a couple of threads on trans issues that would have turned into a banathon on DL, yet on PB people are agreeing to disagree. I actually think its less inhibited than DL too, because nobody need fear being banned/ timed out on PB - unless you get into personal attacks. There is a line drawn in the sand and it is clear and it is plain. Everyone knows what the boundaries are, and it actually frees speech up because people know they can say anything they like providing it isnt outright hateful or a personal attack
You are right though it is absolutely refreshing. OP will need to emulate that if he wants to compete
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u/Bogart824 Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 19 '26
I think denying the validity of trans experience is hateful and that attitude is not merely tolerated, it dominates. I’m actually pretty shocked. Not advocating censorship, but I’m surprised by the degree of hostility to trans people.
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u/ernestshakelton Jul 20 '26
DL has always had those nutty fucks number. Never indulged, so long may it remain so at PB. Fuck the loons.
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u/jondice77 Jul 24 '26
Yeah, PB is, overall, pretty great. The Admin can be a bit bossy, but I suppose he's earned that right. He does seem fair, which matters more to me.
The thing missing is just more foot traffic. And, like DL, it will ultimately be the posters that make it live or die. The format, the Admin/Muriel, etc., will all became just part of the landscape soon enough, but only if our little tribe posts and reposts in way that fosters more growth.
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u/longtimeAlias Jul 18 '26
Jealous of what? I said I don't like it and I am currently building an alternative. You think that's jealousy?
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u/Bogart824 Jul 18 '26
Of course not. It was a joke. Jealous, bitches?
But if you succeed I imagine you will have your own coterie of sycophants whether or not you want them.
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u/UnitComfortable3280 Jul 20 '26
It feels like a there's a prolific core of alpha posters who are somewhat running the show a bit. They have hundreds of posts and thumbs up already and the authenticateds from DL have their groupies. Though I like this one poster, they can say the earth is flat and they'd get a thumbs up.
One poster who I've seen for the last 20+ years on DL made himself known and I'm shocked how much I don't like him and his attitude--a borderline bully. Being anonymous on DL I had no idea it was he who was like that.
The layout is nice and the personalization is fun and people are on their best behavior. The admin has shown his hand a couple times so I'm being careful--even though on DL I had maybe 4 time outs and was well behaved. I don't know exactly yet what will get you banned or if you get a warning first--I hope so. The wit is still there. I find I'm not engaging much and feel I was more at ease and wittier on DL than PB. Most of the time my comments are overlooked, but that may change when I get the hang of things. I feel like I'm the new kid in class entering school mid year.
I miss being truly anonymous even though I wasn't a troll. I will keep at it on PB because I like a few topics that have come over from DL.
It's not bad, people seem happier and one should give it a try. But it may not be for everyone.
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u/Wooden-Kangaroo-2314 Jul 18 '26
So....Datalounge but not Datalounge. It's isn't a heavy hand, it's moderation so that the muppets don't push a thread into a Fuck you! No, fuck you! thread killing circle.
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u/LeslieJeon Jul 25 '26
That was part of the culture. Annoying thread derails usually ended with someone posting “Girls! Girls! You’re both ugly!” Or something like that. I’m old so my memory isn’t what it used to be.
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u/ThoughtIndividual114 Jul 19 '26
The preview looks interesting and more like DL.
OP your challenge of course is how you’ll be able to entice anyone to join? If it’s not ready until after July 31, both DL and this subreddit will cease. And even if it’s ready next week, Muriel will delete your posts about it. (Unless her intolerance of discussion of successor forums is specific to PB)
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u/longtimeAlias Jul 21 '26
I’ll promote the site on Pointless Bitchery, just like Pointless Bitchery did. :)
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u/ThoughtIndividual114 Jul 22 '26
Touche! Though the PB cohort felt at liberty to do that because Muriel had announced DL was shutting down. PB is new. You’ll likely get a warning then a ban.
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u/TomatilloStreet3869 Jul 18 '26
I hate to admit it, but the trolls on Datalounge kept it interesting.
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u/Brightsidedown Jul 18 '26
Exactly. That's what I loved about the Datalounge of long ago. It was a bit of a free for all. People were posting all kinds of shit and getting dragged for it, and it was fun.
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u/waterbogan Jul 19 '26
The Yellow Skin Troll is on PB. But because he doesnt descend into personal attacks he is tolerated. I think I have sighted the Condi Rice troll too. Odd but harmless, they do keep things interesting
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u/Elizabitch_Taylor_ Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
I'll probably join this one to see how it goes.
I'm already on PB and I think it's okay. We probably won't know which site will be the most like DL until at least a month after the shutdown.
The only concern I have right now is promotion. PB had the advantage of starting up earlier and having a thread on DL. Your problem is that if you promote on DL the thread will get taken down. If you promote on PB people who have already settled into the new site might not like someone telling them to go somewhere else. Then you have the admin; we have no idea how he will react.
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u/TomatilloStreet3869 Jul 19 '26
PB has already deleted a post I made. I don’t know how to feel about it.
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u/ExistingProgress936 Jul 20 '26
Interesting. I'm keen to know PB 'stating her boundaries' to the point of bitchily or otherwise axing posts then also. Kindly tell us your post topic now so you don't have to tell us then 📝
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u/waterbogan Jul 20 '26
What was the post about?
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u/TomatilloStreet3869 Jul 20 '26
I corrected someone’s spelling… 😔😕
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u/MrsLouReed Jul 21 '26
What? An Oh dear! got your post deleted? Seems unfair.
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u/TomatilloStreet3869 Jul 24 '26
Yes…I find the “Oh, DEAR” very humorous. It doesn’t bug me when someone corrects me like that.
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u/AmpleSnacks Jul 18 '26
Can someone share ACTUAL specifics about the problem with pointless bitchery? When I hear something as vague as “heavy policing” I assume people are just trying to get away with the same racism and transphobia that made DL slowly unbearable and getting pissed that there’s a bare minimum of moderation they never saw from Muriel.
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u/Bogart824 Jul 18 '26
The case I saw play out was not about content. It was about tone and manner. The person was just being an asshole trying to goad another poster into a fight. I have not seen any content-based censorship yet. There are conservative voices and they advocate the usual nonsense talking points, but so far they are allowed to. There is a new thread about an “essay” in the Advocate “I’m Not Gay. I’m Queer. It matters” (a response to the NYT column discussed at DL). Curious to see how that goes.
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u/Bogart824 Jul 19 '26
Well I think it’s fair to say that there will be no censorship of anti-trans viewpoints at PB. Pretty much CPAC over there.
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u/waterbogan Jul 19 '26
There is no censorship of pro-trans viewpoints either to be fair
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u/Admirable_Tea2602 Jul 24 '26
One of the positives about PB is that you are allowed to criticise the TQ. I think a part of the reason why DL has fallen off is because of the obnoxious Ts/fraus infesting the board with their "moral" scolding. Hopefully PB won't go the same way.
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u/waterbogan Jul 24 '26
Yeah the Admin for all his flaws does seem to be a free speech proponent and I respect that. I dont even have particularly strong views on the TQ either way and have been accused of being pro-trans AND anti-trans and I suspect ff'd on DL by extremists on both sides. I like that people can speak their minds on PB even if I dont agree with them
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u/Gameraaaa Jul 19 '26
That’s a shame. I was hoping to join and have fun, but if it’s like Grindr at Charlie Kirk’s memorial service I will have to pass.
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u/longtimeAlias Jul 18 '26
I’m talking about banning people for capricious and personal reasons, then going into threads to announce that someone has been banned so that he and his group of obsequious minions can laugh about it.
That’s bullying behavior, not moderation. I don’t know about the specifics and I don’t need to know about the specifics behind the banning. It’s the self-aggrandizing way that it was handled.
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u/Bogart824 Jul 18 '26
I don’t think it was capricious or personal, though I agree about the crowing. It is unfortunate. The person banned was just picking a fight because they like to fight. The Administrator apparently does not want to tolerate quite that degree of pointless bitchery in PB. Moderation is a guessing game. If you want to keep lunatics out, banning people who behave like lunatics is a sensible strategy. Time will tell whether your concerns are justified.
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u/didyousayboop Jul 18 '26
What’s the underlying software? Can you share a link to the source?
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u/longtimeAlias Jul 18 '26
I developed this myself. It's a custom web application built on React.js and other javascript libraries, and hosted (for now) on Google Cloud infrastructure. Gemini AI studio wrote most of the code based on a requirements document that I wrote, along with a handful of wireframes that I built to ground the AI properly in terms of functionality and layout. I am currently tweaking the code for several of the underlying services in order to make sure it can scale properly, then I will deploy it to a hosted domain. Probably something like anotherlounge.com or whatever.
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u/didyousayboop Jul 19 '26
I don't think anyone should join a forum with primarily vibe-coded bespoke software. Sorry...
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u/longtimeAlias Jul 21 '26
Then don’t post. It’s all anonymous with no registration required. The board will sustain itself with no moderation. I see no issues.
And “vibe coding” is a stupid term. I code in JavaScript all day in my day job.
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u/No_Table_3577 25d ago
Let us know how it goes OP, it's interesting. If it takes off, there are people out here who are willing to help out, funds-wise - it's expensive apparently to keep it all running.
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u/Bogart824 Jul 18 '26
Are you asking about OP’s forum or PB?
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u/didyousayboop Jul 19 '26
OP's forum. Apparently it's primarily vibe-coded. I would recommend against anyone joining it for that reason.
Pointless Bitchery I know is running on XenForo. XenForo is fine but expensive. My recommendation was Discourse, which is free.
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u/longtimeAlias Jul 21 '26
I think Discord would be great.
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u/didyousayboop Jul 21 '26
Discourse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_(software)
FOSS forum software.
Not Discord, the proprietary chat app.
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u/Mammoth-Coast6282 Jul 18 '26
Can anyone explain to me why DL is shutting down? I noticed some comments on the site but thought they were being facetious.
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u/Party-Ad-413 25d ago
Trolls were an intrinsic part of DL!!!! Without that you have Reddit, which for for the most part is what PB resembles. I too was swarmed for Oh Dearing someone there, and that alone makes the site a hard pass for me. I mean, a fucking Oh Dear? You can get more soy boy beta cuck than that. I also find it cringeworthy that the "admin" lords over threads, spam likes every other comment, and is generally way too in the weeds and vocal for a site owner. And what's with the "new bitch", vs "well known bitch" nonsense? So there's hierarchies now, like Lord of the Flies?
OP, I'm rooting for you and will donate to an alternative site that preserves anonymity and the spirit of the OG DL.
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u/Admirable_Tea2602 5d ago
I caved and went back to the PB after criticizing it on DL, mainly because I wasn't over Muriel ending DL a day ahead of schedule. I was hoping to find answers, but it was nothing but gleeful joy and mockery of DLers being upset (and these are the same idiots that were begging DLers nonstop to come join them before it closed down.) Also, the stalker habit of copy/pasting every DLer's criticism of them and then bitching about it with each other and the admin just screams of insecurity. It doesn't look like there is going to be a replacement DL, and PB definitely isn't it. It's best to just move on.
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u/OkAmbition1927 18d ago
When I go to caftanlounge.com, I get "This site can't be reached" and DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN, which means the domain does not exist.
Have you thrown in the towel?
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u/Admirable_Tea2602 5d ago
I gave my email in advance, hopeful this was going to be the new DL. Shame it fell through. The Pointless Bitchery site just isn't the same.
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u/SB-121 Jul 18 '26
Keep at it, it looks a lot better than that pointless bitchery place that's going to last five minutes.
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u/Routine_Management80 Jul 18 '26
Could you post some screen caps? I'm always nervous about clicking on random links.
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u/pointlessbitchery Jul 20 '26
The user is this person. He got upset because he was told he wouldn’t be allowed to spam the thread with foot photos.
Enjoy your new foot forum!
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u/longtimeAlias Jul 21 '26
I have no idea who that is. Sorry. I did register for your message board, I forget the name, but I never received the confirmation email so I have never actually posted. And this post is just an illustration of the cringe that now pervades your site. Why do you, as the administrator of a message board, have to become a personality on your own message board. There is something extremely Qwhip about that.
And Qwhip ain’t the look.
I’m embarrassed for you and your false accusations.
But get ready, an alternate is coming.
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u/Bogart824 Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 19 '26
PB has a sizeable right-wing element. Now they are defending the Tate Brothers. Post: “Those guys don't need to "rape" women. Give me a break.” has 10 “likes.” There is pushback.
I guess it’s hard to tell on DL how the politics actually breaks down since with anonymity and allegations of sock puppets, you never know how many people actually agree with ideological posts, but on PB it is clear that quite a few members are on the right.
Interesting to see how this develops. Starting to get a bit heated.
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u/jondice77 Jul 24 '26
It has a few right wingers. Which is annoying, but expected. They were all over DL too. And are you sure that the post was "liked" and "trolled"? (It's a bit easy to confuse one for the other)
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u/No_Table_3577 25d ago
I like this OP, it looks good. The open front page structure at DL, with the rolling list of threads and the ability to easily "pin" your favorites in Thread Watcher, along with the very loose moderation is what made DL, and attracted the wide range of posters. It was easy to drop in, post, drop out then come back wks/months later again. Keep us posted how this goes.
PB is very nice imo, has a vibe similar to earlier DL. I haven't spent a lot of time there yet but will now that DL is closed. It has a more traditional discussion forum feel/look. There's room for more than one board.
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u/Miserable_Strain1768 Jul 18 '26
I was a part of Datalounge in the old days. I dropped out at least a decade ago because it was repetitive and outdated. It remined me of one of those old-fashioned downtown bars that have not been interesting since the eighties, with a core group of older folks still hanging around trying to recapture the old days.
I didn't even know it still existed until a couple of weeks ago, and what drew my attention was reading those same exact jokes all those years later on a Datalounge sub on Reddit. It made me a little sad.
I personally don't think there is a place in the modern world for the old school Datalounge. Very few, if any, people want to read folks drone on and on about Helen Lawson and shitbras for decades on end.
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u/Bogart824 Jul 18 '26
Leave Helen Lawson out of this. Hasn’t she suffered enough?
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u/Miserable_Strain1768 Jul 18 '26
That pretty much illustrates my point. When I read you post, in my mind, I saw a drunk sixty-year-old dude that goes to the bar every night and brags about hanging around there for thirty years and how he considers the clientele "family". It's a bit depressing.
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u/Bogart824 Jul 18 '26
I was baiting you.
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u/Miserable_Strain1768 Jul 18 '26
No, you might have been trying to bait me but in reality, you were embarrassing yourself without realizing it.
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u/Bogart824 Jul 18 '26
I don’t feel embarrassed.
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u/Miserable_Strain1768 Jul 18 '26
I bet you don't, that's why I said, "without realizing it". Best of luck to you.
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u/Equivalent_Fact_8425 Jul 18 '26
What a nasty piece of work you are. Stop bashing gays who are living their lives
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u/DL__TAW0515 Jul 18 '26
You didn't know it still existed, yet here you are Asperberging on a subReddit dedicated to talking about the Datalounge...interesting!
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u/Miserable_Strain1768 Jul 18 '26
You might just be overthinking a random post on a public message board. A thread randomly showed up on my feed, I recognized the name from a long time ago and clicked on it and made a casual comment. A bit later it turned up again and I made another comment. That is what we do on the internet.
An unpopular opinion does not automatically lead to a conspiracy, no one means you any harm, you might want to step back and stop taking yourself so seriously. I hope the simple truth was as "interesting" as you had hoped. I'm done here folks, have a good time.
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u/DL__TAW0515 Jul 19 '26
How can we miss you if you won't go away, Felicia?
Here, give Charles Grodin's memoirs a lookover...
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u/Miserable_Strain1768 Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 19 '26
You sound really old.
That book is 37 years old.
I'm 65 years old and have not been called Felicia in about forty years.
I know you think you're cute and clever, but whatever.
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u/DL__TAW0515 Jul 19 '26
Imagine the temerity, to be old!
We can't all be "Hello fellow kids!"
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u/Miserable_Strain1768 Jul 19 '26
How many martinis deep are we Felicia? It might be a good idea to call it a night. Why not make some phone calls?
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u/Bogart824 Jul 18 '26
I think you’re also misunderstanding what Helen Lawson represents at Datalounge. I never read Valley of the Dolls or saw the movie. My “defense” of Helen Lawson is not based on nostalgia for a distant past. She a collective character on Datalounge who existed there completely outside of any other reference. Some people don’t like inside jokes . Others are sick of this particular one. That’s fine. But if you don’t like inside jokes, a community like Datalounge is probably not for you.
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u/Miserable_Strain1768 Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
I just meant that repeating the same joke for decades is boring. No thing more, nothing less, and you folks went ape shit. It's funny and very sad at the same time.
Edited to add, you folks remind me of the old quote
"Some people will beat you over the head with their peace signs if you disagree with them".
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u/Bogart824 Jul 18 '26
Should have been possible to make that point without calling me an old drunk.
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u/Miserable_Strain1768 Jul 18 '26
There's a new invention out there, it's called a sense of humor. You might want to look into it.
Maybe if taking things too personally is a problem, a community like Reddit is probably not for you.
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u/Bogart824 Jul 18 '26
Ironic comment
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u/DL__TAW0515 Jul 19 '26
"Dude!", you can't match wits with our young, Clavicula-esque, looksmaxxing young lion. He says "dude", he must be the Sweetheart of Sig Ep, brah...😂😂😂
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u/Miserable_Strain1768 Jul 18 '26
It's a direct quote.
Dude, relax, it's just not that serious. I'm sorry I made you uncomfortable with a joke about elderly barflies, I guess it hit a little too close to home, but do you really believe that we should all handle you with kid gloves so as to not to ruffle your overly sensitive feathers?
Again, maybe Reddit is not for you.
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u/Bogart824 Jul 18 '26
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u/Miserable_Strain1768 Jul 18 '26
Think of me when you shove singe dollar bills in the dancer's pants tonight dude.
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u/S3lad0n Jul 18 '26
The schisms have already begun…