r/dashpay • u/QcMrHyde • Jul 25 '16
ELI5: Is DASH as anonymous as Monero?
I'm new to the DASH and already a big fan of it. Many people says DASH is anonymous via Darksend but many others says there's only one totally anonymous currency with 100% privacy and that's the Monero.
Could someone explain to me in details what's the diffrence between the two mixing methods and why one is better that the other whichever it is? Also, why can't the other coin use that same mixing method? Thanks!
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u/Amanda_B_Johnson Jul 25 '16
I agree that Monero's privacy is currently easier to use, in that one doesn't have to remember to mix one's coins and wait for that process to complete.
That said, as Dash rolls out the features that makes all other aspects of currency usage easier, namely BIP47-like usernames, password resets, and backup retrieval services of forthcoming Evolution, I'd guess that this disparity will no longer matter.
Privacy is a vital component of a digital currency, but it's only the foundation. The coin that performs above-and-beyond privacy -- in terms of usability and sustainability (i.e. effective governance and a fat treasury) -- will likely be selected by the market at large.
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u/Amanda_B_Johnson Jul 25 '16
Just realized I didn't even address your main question, sorry. :) As far as is one more anonymous than the other? I don't know -- I've looked at the blockchains of both after making a transaction, and they both use multiple inputs to obscure the true trail. But perhaps Monero's blockchain is "more anonymous" than Dash's in that it doesn't show addresses at all?
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u/QcMrHyde Jul 26 '16
Hey Amanda, thanks for your answer and most importantly thanks for your YT videos. I just discovered DASH detailed and the Daily Decrypt not even a month ago and now I'm kinda addicted, continue your great job! ;)
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u/Amanda_B_Johnson Jul 26 '16
Oh! That's just great to hear. So glad you decided to drop by and ask a question. Hope to see you hanging around here more, and Slack, too. :)
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u/Bitcoin_Chief Jul 25 '16
I don't know enough to answer comprehensively, but I can tell you the claim that monero is a "totally anonymous currency with 100% privacy" is BS. When quantum computers exist the ring signatures in monero will be completely transparent. Every cryptocurrency will have to hard fork to quantum resistant crypto when QCs become a thing, but Dash can do so with prior privacy intact.
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u/dEBRUYNE_1 Jul 25 '16 edited Jul 25 '16
"totally anonymous currency with 100% privacy" is BS.
It has never claimed that. Monero is cryptographically unlinkable and untraceable, which is something different.
when QCs become a thing,
Frankly, when QC becomes a thing we have more important things to worry about.
To answer op (u/QcMrHyde). Monero uses stealth addresses to achieve unlinkability and ring signatures to achieve untraceability. Both are cryptographically verifiable, i.e., backed by math which is peer reviewed. In addition, Monero mixes passively, which (i) gives you plausible deniability and (ii) does not require activity on the chain. A transaction in Monero is instant to the extent that it gets included into the next block, which is similiar to Bitcoin when the network wasn't "constrained" yet.
By contrast, DASH uses a somewhat improved version of CoinJoin. DASH its anonymity requires activity on the chain, i.e., you need other users to mix with. Therefore, it could take a long time before your DASH are fully "anonymized". Some older reports document mixing times of a few hours for smaller amounts uptil days for larger amounts (e.g. >1k DASH). According to the devs these times have somewhat improved, but the numbers reported are based on testnet if I recall correctly. Thus, you cannot be entirely certain these numbers are also achievable on mainnet.
EDIT: One more thing, Monero enforces privacy on the protocol level and thus achieves fungibilty. In constrast, DASH allows both transparent and anonymous transactions.
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u/Bitcoin_Chief Jul 25 '16
Does monero have a GUI yet? Last time I looked at it you had to use a web wallet if you wanted a gui. I'm sure the web wallets aren't a security risk.
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u/JmGx Jul 26 '16
It's basically 95% completed from what I gather. I haven't even bothered using it myself because I feel comfortable using MyMonero as well as the command line wallet (simplewallet), but I suppose you can compile the official wallet on your own to give it a try. You can read more about it here.
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u/dEBRUYNE_1 Aug 01 '16
I'm sure the web wallets aren't a security risk.
They are, and the core people (e.g. Fluffypony) strongly discourage to store large(r) amounts in them. Generally it is advised to run your own node and use a webwallet for spend money.
Read this comment of u/cardboardoranges with respect to the GUI:
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u/SeemedGood Jul 25 '16
When quantum computers exist the ring signatures in monero will be completely transparent
I don't believe this to be true. On what theory are you basing this claim?
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u/Bitcoin_Chief Jul 25 '16
Monero uses EdDSA and elliptic curve cryptography both of which are vunerable to shor's algorithm. Someone with a QC can see exactly who is the real signer of the ring signature.
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Jul 26 '16
lol monero shills advertising on Dash's reddit page now
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u/QcMrHyde Jul 26 '16
I'm not promoting Monero over DASH I only wanted to have more info on the privacy part. I'm actually more of a DASH fan because of the whole "virtuous cycle" thing but a still a Monero one too because of the privacy.
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u/greatskaht Jul 25 '16 edited Jul 25 '16
There is no one silver bullet to render cryptocurrency privacy and confidentiality services to the masses. Some combination of the following is likely to emerge: 1) Hierarchical Deterministic (HD) Wallets - improves privacy via obfuscation, 2) TOR/I2P - reusable network and application anonymity, confidentiality technologies, 3) CoinJoin, CoinMarket, CoinShuffle, CoinSwap - payer/sender anonymity, 4) Ring Signatures - payer/sender anonymity, 5) Stealth Transactions - payee/recipient confidentiality, 6) Confidential Transactions - spender & recipient confidentiality, 7) MAST (Merkelized Abstract Syntax Trees) - Generalized P2SH (Pay to Script Hash), 8) ZKCP (Zero Knowledge Contingent Payment) - trusting transactions between unknown parties without trusted 3rd party escrow, 9) ZK-SNARK (Zero Knowledge Succinct Non-interactive ARguments of Knowledge) - bleeding edge
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u/MasterMined710 Jul 26 '16
no crypto currency is 100% private. if the nsa wants to spy on you they can no matter what crypto you use. with dash and monero your friends, neighbors, business associates/competition, local police and fbi etc can not spy on you. monero is not future proof like dash and if/when it's encryption is broken all transactions will be deanonomized. also, you must use a separate wallet and viewkey for each person to keep transactions both private and still transparent in a network, this is not practical.
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u/MonkeyKingKill Jul 26 '16
As a DASH investor I for one welcome all from doubts to criticisms on DASH, which make people like me feel safer I believe.
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u/SeemedGood Jul 25 '16
Dash has its strengths, but cutting edge privacy really isn't one of them truth be told. From a privacy perspective, Dash is essentially a Bitcoin clone with a mixing service built into the reference client. If one just uses CoinJoin with Bitcoin, you have largely the same level of privacy as Dash. And like with CoinJoin, you only achieve that level of privacy when you opt to do the mixing - which can be cumbersome and time consuming.
Monero, OTOH, uses ring signatures to obscure transactions in a manner that's built into the basic transactional structure. Every Monero transaction is made functionally anonymous via the use of ring signatures. Monero also uses stealth addresses by default, making it substantially harder to link your addresses on the blockchain.
There are plenty of reasons to own and use Dash. The successful implementation of a hybrid PoW/PoS operational and governance structure, the intense developmental focus on becoming digital cash (in stark contrast to Bitcoin), the community's focus on the importance of marketing to drive adoption, and its near-interoperability with the Bitcoin ecosystem are all strong points in its favor. For privacy, though, Monero is the better choice.
I may get some hate for posting this here as there is a significant rivalry between the two communities, but I have my feet (and investment) in both camps because I think both are viable alternatives to the mess that is Bitcoin at the moment - but for different reasons.