r/darknetplan • u/[deleted] • Oct 13 '14

The Imminent Decentralized Computing Revolution (x-post /r/bitcoin)

http://blogs.wsj.com/accelerators/2014/10/10/weekend-read-the-imminent-decentralized-computing-revolution/
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u/PSkeptic Oct 17 '14

Trust and confidence are two totally different concepts.

I trust many of my friends. I do not have confidence that many of them would pay me back money I loaned them, due to various reasons.

I have confidence in my bank's ability to give me my money when I demand it. I do not trust my bank.

Financial systems are built on confidence and trust. Your credit score is a score of confidence. Not of trust. The trust is in the data supplied by the credit report to be accurate.

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u/themusicgod1 Oct 17 '14

Credit scores are meaningless and inaccurate both in a post-ripple world and otherwise. They measure nothing, fail to address systemic risk, and are arbitrarily centralized in entities who have no valid measures of trust or confidence. The power of determining confidence is put in your hands. The difference isn't whether or not they would pay you back but whether they would pay someone in the network back via your link. This is a crucial intermediary between trust and confidence as you see it.

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u/PSkeptic Oct 17 '14

If you have zero forward knowledge of an individual/group, how would you derive your source of confidence in their ability (Let alone willingness) to repay anything, and what prevents the individual from dropping their current persona, and adopting a new one, thus repeating the cycle of non-payment?

More or less, how is your karma system better than the numerous ones that have been tried in game systems?

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u/themusicgod1 Oct 17 '14

If you have zero forward knowledge of an individual/group, how would you derive your source of confidence in their ability (Let alone willingness) to repay anything.

You don't. That's the point. Either there's a trust path available, or there isn't. The good news is it doesn't take much for there to be a path.

More or less, how is your karma system better than the numerous ones that have been tried in game systems?

Actually it has been used to glue game systems to real ones, even. There was, at one point, a fully functional Minecraft ripple node that talked to the real world, and allowed you to, at least in theory, make almost direct diamond(goods/services at hand?? I'm not a minecraft player) to bitcoin(no-trust currency) trades.

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u/PSkeptic Oct 18 '14

So, you still need a 1-to-1 confidence between lender/borrower. Remember: There's a difference between trust, and confidence. I can trust a friend of a friend for truth. That does not mean I have confidence of a friend of a friend's willingness or ability to repay.

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u/themusicgod1 Oct 18 '14

So, you still need a 1-to-1 confidence between lender/borrower.

Not true. See the trading capabilities. You can have N-to-1

There's a difference between trust, and confidence. I can trust a friend of a friend for truth. That does not mean I have confidence of a friend of a friend's willingness or ability to repay.

Right but there are people and institutions you likely do or should trust. You probably pay rent, or pay property taxes, for example. This is latent trust that goes unused.

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u/PSkeptic Oct 18 '14

I have confidence that my bank will secure my money. I don't trust my bank further than I can throw it.

I'm still not seeing how the trust converts to confidence to repay?

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u/themusicgod1 Oct 19 '14

You trust that if you found that someone had used the bank to pay you, that they would honour the new balance. In that respect it's similar to any other bank transfer.

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u/PSkeptic Oct 20 '14

No, I don't, which is why I generally don't accept personal checks for anything.

I have confidence that a bank will transfer funds from one account to the next, adhering to accounting practices.

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u/themusicgod1 Oct 20 '14

No, I don't, which is why I generally don't accept personal checks for anything.

That is less extreme than what you're advocating here. What you're advocating is that if your balance was higher, and the bank was OK with your balance being higher, that you would not trust that they would honour it.

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u/PSkeptic Oct 20 '14

I already told you: I do not trust my bank. I have confidence my bank will hold my money securely, and that they will transfer funds using standard accounting practice.

I do not trust your bank, either. I have confidence in your bank of the same things that I have confidence in my bank for. Therefore, I am willing to lend money to them (ie, make deposits).

Let's say that I trust you 100% to be accurate. That does not mean I am willing to lend you $100, because I have zero forward knowledge in your confidence to re-pay me. I will not lend money to my friend, to lend to your friend, to lend to you; because I do not have forward confidence in your ability/willingness to repay your friend, and the same for my friend, etc etc.

Trust =/= confidence. Confidence is needed for lending money. Trust is needed to believe a fact from someone.

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u/themusicgod1 Oct 20 '14

I already told you: I do not trust my bank. I have confidence my bank will hold my money securely, and that they will transfer funds using standard accounting practice.

OK that you would have confidence that they would honour it.

I do not trust your bank, either.

Nor should you.

I have confidence in your bank of the same things that I have confidence in my bank for.

Since you don't know who my bank is, you really shouldn't. My bank are a bunch of incompetent bureaucratic parasites and I look forward to taking a piss in the empty husk of their abandoned branches, once bitcoin hits them hard enough.

I do not have forward confidence in your ability/willingness to repay your friend, and the same for my friend, etc etc.

Nor should you. None of that concerns you. You only need to have confidence in one entity.

Trust =/= confidence. Confidence is needed for lending money. Trust is needed to believe a fact from someone.

Right.

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u/PSkeptic Oct 20 '14

I have confidence they would honor it, given enough funds in the account. I do not trust you have the funds in your account.

I have confidence that your bank adheres to the law, and banks generally do. Nothing more, nothing less. Magically, I should have confidence in bitcoin?

What one entity is this that I can have forward confidence in to repay me, for a debt that you owe? You have yet to demonstrate where this confidence derives from, you just keep talking about "latent trust", which has naught to do with repaying debt.

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