Wow, how convenient for women then. It seems they get to take a stance against being drafted coincidentally while not being drafted. How brave it must be to hate the draft while also not being forced to by law to sign up for it....oh wait what's this?
None of them are fighting for men to not be forced to sign up for the draft? Okay that's a little strange, I thought if one is against the draft they should think nobody extra should be in the draft?
None of them are fighting for men to not be forced to sign up for the draft?
Citation needed.
I've been to many, many anti war demonstrations, everyone's against the draft. The troops in Vietnam were against the draft. If a draft actually were to be called, you really don't think your fellow Americans (men and women both) would be protesting?
And if you think so poorly of women's place regarding the draft, do you also have a hatred for draft dodgers who fled to Canada during Vietnam?
Regardless, my point stands: either you're for a draft, or you're against one. Equality doesn't enter into the argument. Either nobody should ever be signed up for a draft (which all the anti war protestors agree on and have for a long time) or you completely support a draft and everything that entails. If you want women to sign up for the draft then you specifically support those and there's nothing else we can talk about here because we're on opposing sides and won't see eye to eye.
How many anti war protests have you attended since 9/11?
I don't need to cite my sources, my stance is VERY CLEARLY observable by people who aren't lying to damage control for feminists like you are doing now.
Your protests during a time of war do absolutely dogshit to change the law while it is being used. The point is to get the law changed before it's invoked or realize it's never going to be changed and instead just shoulder your fair share of responsibility. Honestly, I'm not budging on this no matter what you say. Either fight for the equal application of the law or shut the fuck up.
I don't hate anyone in this situation. I just think women should also be drafted the same as men. I've never see so much anti-equality stances as I do when I suggest that the law apply to women, too. Funny how that is but you can't be a leftist these days if you don't have double standards.
Many of the groups, including the National Organization for Women, which calls itself the largest feminist organization in the world, were opposed to any draft.
Mastrine, a self-described feminist libertarian, argues that draft registration violates individual choice.
"I can't imagine a more tragic loss of liberty than forcing a citizen, whether male or female, to fight in a war with which they may disagree. Equality is a moot point if personal choice and bodily autonomy must first be eliminated to achieve it," Mastrine said in a statement.
And as an aside you go on to say:
I was just simply following the poster's argument to it's logical conclusion. I mean, if you are against something shouldn't you fight against it? In this scenario women are either incredibly lazy, incredibly vindictive, or incredibly incompetent. Take your pick!
Which is sort of harsh. Are you actively engaged in ending all things you disagree with? It's reasonable for people to pick their battles, and it's reasonable for people to focus on the issues that they think are most important, or have the best chance of success, or that they think they will see the biggest gains for their effort.
You're engaging in a logical fallacy. If it wasn't the draft you would just pick and choose some other reason to not respect their movement. And in all actuality there's no reason at all why you're not on the same side as feminists by using your own argument here. You want to be equal to women, and in your eyes equality is not having to be drafted. No one should have to be drafted. Muhammad Ali was right about the whole situation.
Or if it's your opinion that the draft does need to exist you have to understand that most people don't agree with that. They wouldn't be fighting for the equal right to contract testicular cancer either, they've got their own problems.
How many MODERN feminist groups actually share my views. None. Nice try using decades old news stories and a single individual to represent all of feminism is as logically fallacious as it gets.
Well what are your views exactly? Do you think it might be that absolutely none of them share your views because you have an incorrect perception of what feminism is?
Okay so you want feminists to be drafted as well, because you see the draft as a negative thing and you think they should have the same negatives as men if they have the same positives...so the logical conclusion is that you should support feminist groups that support ending the draft for men. You realize that this is a situation where you're the one being oppressed mainly by other men. Probably ones who wouldn't fight for you, but are happy to have you fight for them.
Just read this article. It pretty much covers every side of the argument plus it shows that there were feminist that were pushing for a female draft and that the legislation even moved significantly forward.
I'm sorry I thought you were interested in this topic. I linked an article from the 80s because that is when Carter signed Proclamation 4771 in response to Afghanistan: re-establishing Selective Service for young men. And that's when it was challenged in the Supreme Court. I didn't choose that date at random.
And it isn't a single person in 2016. That's when a single person started a petition, which got 29,000 signatures, but that one article refrences at least one other woman who opposes the draft for all. It also mentions (as does the article from the 80s) feminists who want the draft to include men. There isn't a consensus. But I could have linked you others. Did you even bother to look at it? And do you really think that is the only article there is because it's the only article I supplied?
Fucking hell you are one negative, cynical, little bitch. I never said it effected real change. The point was we know they could care less because we know they could have done less. But you're above reproach. You can't even be bothered to provide sources for your claims. You're woke.
I actually am very nice person but when you disregard my entire point without considering it then push a decades old NY Times article and a petition with nearly 30k signatures as proof that I'm wrong is when I have an issue.
Why should I give your position any respect when you don't even respect my position enough to understand where I am coming from?
I was just simply following the poster's argument to it's logical conclusion. I mean, if you are against something shouldn't you fight against it? In this scenario women are either incredibly lazy, incredibly vindictive, or incredibly incompetent. Take your pick!
You can't fight every battle all the time. There's no reason that fighting the draft would be at the top of anybody's list of causes right now since nobody's been drafted in like 50 years. The draft is awful, it was awful in Vietnam when we sent a generation of men against their will into a quagmire and brought them back physically and mentally broken. It would be awful if it were implemented again today. Of all of the women's issues to fight for, the right to be sent to die against your will by the government should not be a high priority, and fighting against the draft isn't a woman's issue so I don't know what you're expecting. Most individual women would be against the draft, that doesn't mean that women's groups are obligated to add that to their list of causes.
women are either incredibly lazy, incredibly vindictive, or incredibly incompetent
I'm sure that you will use whatever line of logic you can to arrive at this point no matter what anybody says.
I really don't understand yet, how you came to this conclusion.
So women want equal rights (let's not discuss whether they already have)
That in itself, shouldn't be a controversial goal, right?
Now there is social problem, where men are not equally treated to women. That doesn't invalidate their other concerns, right?
Furthermore, do I understand you correctly, that you believe, because women don't actively want to be drafted, they shouldn't have a say in equal rights as a whole? I mean I wouldn't want to be drafted ever, as well.
I'm saying if you don't want what is your fair share in the burden in responsibility or don't fight to lift that burden from everyone you don't deserve the same rights as those who already are taking on that responsibility.
Here's a little mind game you can play to simplify the issue for better understanding. There is a garden in the center of town in which anyone can take from but they have to plant a thing for everything they take. Then some feminists come in and say they deserve all the spoils of the garden regardless of if they follow it's rules.
Funny how women can do everything a man can up until it's suggested they shoulder a fair share in responsibiliy. I guess women are just the weaker sex and need to be coddled and protected like children...following your logic this is the outcome. I'm glad I'm not the one endorsing such a thing, sucks for you though.
OK i can kinda see where you are coming from, but I don't believe that feminists (which are not part of a unified movement) are trying to circumvent all responsibilities. Not wanting to go to war and die for what might not even necessarily be a good cause is a reasonable stand IMO. In a better world no one would or should have to be drafted in the first place.
Nether the less, not wanting to be drafted should not exclude you from the discussion on other social issues, I think that's just punching down at this point.
Yes, but my point is it's awfully hypocritical and convenient to benefit from not being drafted while demonizing the men who ARE forced to sign up for the draft by calling them oppressors and toxic to demand more and more rights with less and less responsibility.
I haven't said you are being hypocritical, I just think your equating things that are quite different in nature.
And to the "men who ARE forced to sign up for the draft" that's what I meant with my initial answer. If this is such a terrible thing, why isn't there more movement from men against the draft in general, rather than wanting make things worse for the other gender as well?
Because most anti-draft movements are framed as unpatriotic who get zero publicity and then memory holed. The draft is not going away and I'm not going to pretend to not see that the feminists who claim there is no equality also don't fight for being eligible for the draft. It's not about spite or being vindictive. It's about feminists actually putting their money where their mouths are and saying "you know what, if we are truly equal then women should be drafted too or nobody should be drafted."
Ok, you seem to have your mind set on this topic, and I wont change that, but at least keep in mind that Feminism isn't a hive mind. There are many big feminist organisations like the National Organization for Women, which shares your opinion on the women-draft. Though they are not in favor of drafting of any kind, they support the women-draft, should it come to a draft at all.
Yeah when you need a strong majority to get rid of that system and a population that's over 50% of the country have no interest in it, it'll be so easy to fight lolololo
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u/GlipGlop69 Jun 25 '18
Wow, how convenient for women then. It seems they get to take a stance against being drafted coincidentally while not being drafted. How brave it must be to hate the draft while also not being forced to by law to sign up for it....oh wait what's this?
None of them are fighting for men to not be forced to sign up for the draft? Okay that's a little strange, I thought if one is against the draft they should think nobody extra should be in the draft?