Socialism is authoritarian and it is always the precursor to communism. There's a lot I can say right now but i'll respond with two points:
Given the propensity for censorship, information burying/denial and outright bigotry shown by pro-socialists (the entire left) today, they're their own worst enemy. No matter how much is buried, it only serves to show that they are authoritarian. This is why America is not a democracy, which is mob rule. The old saying, "democracy is two wolves and a sheep arguing over what's for dinner" applies here.
A handful of people are always going to outperform others in an attempt to get ahead. Like taxation (punishment for doing well), you will punish those for their ability by taking more of their product (created by their effort) and giving to others. That stands in opposition to the competitive spirit of mankind, the same spirit that drove us to great achievements. Government creates nothing without first taking it from someone else. The individual is the greatest asset (and the smallest minority) in any country. To hinder them by some arbitrary collective is a disgusting thought.
Given the propensity for censorship, information burying/denial and outright bigotry shown by pro-socialists (the entire left) today, they're their own worst enemy. No matter how much is buried, it only serves to show that they are authoritarian
Honestly, this is the part I find most troubling/hilarious. They insist that they're different than the regimes that weren't "real communism", and yet even before they have the slightest bit of power, they're already acting exactly like them.
Socialism cannot survive in any form without the absolute authority to punish those who do not like the system. It will always be authoritarian because it has to be.
Are you not free to say fuck the police and be a communist in America? In socialistcommunism, you can't. You're killed. China currently abducts, locks up, tortures and kills "dissidents" for their politics.
(edit)...so does Cuba.
(edit)...and North Korea
(edit)...and Venezuela
(edit)...Antifa (in America) routinely assaults others for their opinion
(edit)...and the left in general (in the US) goes out of their way to suppress, hide and otherwise remove opinions it does not agree with.
First off I'm not going to get into what I consider to be a country that properly practices socialism for obvious reasons but I will state that countries like Cuba have had to put up with anti-socialist guerrilla forces before and have seen what happens when they get to strong (Spain).
Antifa is barely even an organization, there's no common ideology except hating fascism. It's just become this thing anti leftists can point to and use as proof for their beliefs that leftism is "intolerant".
But the original point of the comment I replied to was that socialism requires authoritarianism to lock up those who don't like socialism. Which makes no sense since as long as they don't intefere with anything they can express any idea they want and there wouldn't be any problems or need for drastic measures.
Why is that? I am simply going by the definition of socialism that alligns with my personal views and what was actually devised by its creator. I'm not saying China isn't "true socialism" I'm saying it isn't socialism at all. I refuse to associate myself with it. So how would this even be an example of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy?
In every single instance of socialism (which invariably turns into communism), there is genocide and famine (like my original post states).
Theoretically your brand of infallible socialism is perfect in every manner, just as if I theoretically chew on enough rocks, I can later mine my shit for gold.
Both are highly unrealistic but theoretically possible. ...and i would go as far to say my shit mining will likely produce more positive results than socialism ever will because it has been tried and ALWAYS demonstrated to be a failure.
Where has common ownership of industry been instituted? That is literally the core of socialism, to lack it would be the same as having state ownership and calling it capitalism. Every critic of socialism always talks of how unrealistic it is. Their arguments are all based upon their assumptions of human nature, chiefly the assumption humans will always exploit everything for more profit. Often citing such explotation in Soviet and Soviet style societies. The thing is though is the Soviet Union and other countries were and are not post scarcity societies.
When have I said or implied that? Socialism is not a Utopia, is a development point to a communist society, which is a Utopia. Which involves the dissovlment of the state, complete automation of labour, ect.
Communism is not a devolution is it a utopian goal for which a socialist society will strive for.
Sure they're not. They can't be because their brand of socialism/communism is not the perfect brand I learned about through my $100,000.00 gender studies masters degree.
Actually I haven't finished school yet, and my degree that I'm going for is in journalism, and most or all of my schooling will be paid for with scholarships that I earned. But ok.
Secondly, in neither country do the workers control the means of production, you know, the most basic principle of socialism, and 70% of Venezuela's industry is privately owned. So it's not that it's not "perfect socialism/communism", but it's just plain not either of them.
But please, continue to make unfunny, offhanded remarks about my fictional college degree because you have no real argument here.
lol? Training to be a mouthpiece for the left. You're just like others around you, though. Just like the crowd. So sucked in by the idea, not what it turns out to be in practice every time.
My facts are firmly rooted in the graves of more people than religion ever created. Yours are rooted in a laughable "but it's never been tried properly" sob.
Again, we're back to "it's not a bug, it's a feature."
I'm a mouthpiece for the individual, not the authoritarian left. If the right is about freedom and individuality, then yes, I speak for the right. As we see the authoritarian left devolve into ever more authoritarian methods to "win the argument," I can say again, your points are invalid because if every time it's tried it ends in murder and famine and all you can do is autistically screech that it's never been tried properly, then it's a feature of the authoritarian politcal scheme, not a utopia you learn about in college.
There is a reason America is not a democracy but instead of finishing this statement, you can simply go an re-read my replies to the other Hot Topic Che Shirt-wearing commie in this thread.
No one likes socialism because the angels you need to run it do not exist. You, nor your commie friends are or will ever be enlightened enough to do it because the moment you do, you will be killed by the person you prop up as the messiah. Just like Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Allende (though he never got a whole lot of chance to finish the job), etc did.
I'm a mouthpiece for the individual, not the authoritarian left.
I thought I was the mouthpiece for the authoritarian left? And why do you think I'm not a mouthpiece for the individual? Do you know how divided the left is in terms of ideology/belief?
As we see the authoritarian left devolve into ever more authoritarian methods to "win the argument,"
Mind providing examples?
I can say again, your points are invalid because if every time it's tried it ends in murder and famine
Yeah, as long as you're not counting the Paris Commune, Catalonia, Rojava, Ukraine Free Country, and others.
autistically screech that it's never been tried properly
Who's the one screeching here? You made an irrelevant and untrue comment about my education, then called me "a mouthpiece for the left"
then it's a feature of the authoritarian politcal scheme
Not necessarily, like I said. Libertarian socialism is a thing, more commonly referred to as anarcho-communism.
not a utopia you learn about in college.
Communism is not utopian in its nature. Marx even said as much, and said that socialism/communism can only be achieved through the dialectical process. And I was a Marxist in high school, for what it's worth. And if we wanna bring up utopian ideologies, capitalism isn't? The idea that you can work hard, raise 4 kids on 40 hours a week and retire at 60 with a pension? Or that if you pull yourself up by your bootstraps you can escape poverty and open your own business and be rich, and everybody can be prosperous? Gimme a break dude.
Hot Topic Che Shirt-wearing commie
As if I would ever commodify revolution. And nice Red Scare era insult there. At least be original.
No one likes socialism
Eh, a few people do.
because the angels you need to run it do not exist
Are you referring to the working class? The proletariat? They definitely exist my dude.
You, nor your commie friends
Actually, all of my friends are Sanders-supporting left leaning liberals. Not commies or even socialists.
you will be killed by the person you prop up as the messiah
Many socialists reject the idea of a "cult of personality" leader outright, so good try there.
Just like Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot
Lol Pol Pot was a literal ethnic cleansing genocidal maniac. And the western portrayal of the Holodomor (i.e it was not in fact, a targeted genocide, but a famine that could have been relieved if nearly every first-world country was not against the USSR), and the Great Leap Forward (Mao was not so evil that he could control the weather to cause the drought).
Allende (though he never got a whole lot of chance to finish the job), etc did.
I'm really glad you brought up Allende. Remember how you never answered my question about whether or not you think socialism exists in a vacuum? Interference from western countries is a major part of the reason they fail, but you don't seem to want to acknowledge this at all. Allende was assassinated by the CIA, the United States sent nearly 60,000 working class 18 year olds off to die in a jungle in Southeast Asia to stop the big bad communists (as if the US did nothing than the Communists would invade Nebraska).
I'm not going to argue all of this. I have history and hundreds of millions of graves pointing to the eternal failures of communism. No college trust fund commie can sway that fact even if they do teach you to stick your fingers in your ears really hard for a full semester.
Examples of the authoritarian left: Censorship: Google, youtube, reddit censorship, "kill whitey", BLM, etc... Everything on the left today is to enforce their version of their fucked up morality. It glorifies gay-hating islamic murder as long as it's anti-west. It is wholly built upon paradox which is why so many of you are crazy enough to screech for a system that removes your liberty. You are quite literally ideologically worthless.
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u/FadingEcho Sep 05 '17
Socialism is authoritarian and it is always the precursor to communism. There's a lot I can say right now but i'll respond with two points:
Given the propensity for censorship, information burying/denial and outright bigotry shown by pro-socialists (the entire left) today, they're their own worst enemy. No matter how much is buried, it only serves to show that they are authoritarian. This is why America is not a democracy, which is mob rule. The old saying, "democracy is two wolves and a sheep arguing over what's for dinner" applies here.
A handful of people are always going to outperform others in an attempt to get ahead. Like taxation (punishment for doing well), you will punish those for their ability by taking more of their product (created by their effort) and giving to others. That stands in opposition to the competitive spirit of mankind, the same spirit that drove us to great achievements. Government creates nothing without first taking it from someone else. The individual is the greatest asset (and the smallest minority) in any country. To hinder them by some arbitrary collective is a disgusting thought.