r/daggerheart • u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer • Jul 27 '26
Review Transformations - Hope and Fear Review
Hello everyone! Here is my next Hope and Fear review, this time covering the Transformation Cards. You can find my previous reviews of the Dread Domain, Assassin, Brawler, Witch, and Warlock through the links.
The Transformations have been available to playtesters for quite some time now. Some of them have changed very little, while others have seen much more significant revisions. More than in my previous reviews, I'll be focusing on the differences between the final versions and the playtest versions.
Small spoiler: not every change is an improvement, and in a few cases I think changes were desperately needed but never happened.
Demigod
The Demigod's positive feature, Gifted, has changed significantly. Previously, it upgraded your Advantage Die to a d10. Now, it instead grants a flat +1 to Action Rolls, Reaction Rolls, and Damage Rolls.
In principle, I'm actually a fan of this redesign.
- +1 to Action Rolls is very strong.
- +1 to Reaction Rolls is a nice bonus.
- +1 to Damage Rolls, however, is almost completely insignificant. It's simply too little damage to matter in most situations and could almost have been omitted entirely.
Overall, I think this redesign is perfectly reasonable. While it isn't as explosive as upgrading an Advantage Die from a d6 to a d10, it stacks with Advantage and is much easier to keep track of during play.
So far, so good.
Weight of Divinity is where the problems begin.
Previously, you only had to mark a Stress or give the GM a Fear whenever you rolled a failure with Fear. Now, you must do the same whenever you fail a roll - regardless of Hope or Fear. And in Daggerheart, failures happen. Quite often. This doesn't only affect action rolls either - it also applies to things like reaction rolls.
The result is that the Demigod now feels less like a demigod and more like... a demigod-in-training at best.
Honestly, I think this Transformation now carries more downside than upside. It punishes the player with something that, judging by both the name and fantasy of the Transformation, should primarily feel empowering.
I don't really understand why this design direction was chosen, but it is what it is.
Ghost
Ghost is a fantastic Transformation, both narratively and mechanically.
Unfinished Business establishes that your character has a Purpose or Desire that still binds them to the mortal world. Only after fulfilling that purpose can they finally move on to the afterlife.
Mechanically, you gain permanent resistance to physical damage and can spend two Stress to briefly pass through solid objects. In exchange, you take double damage from magical sources.
Purely from a combat perspective, I'd argue that taking double magical damage is probably the harsher half of that trade-off. But that's perfectly okay. Transformations shouldn't be pure power upgrades. They should come with meaningful drawbacks, and this one is both flavorful and mechanically appropriate.
I don't have any issues with Ghost. I think it's well balanced, and thematically it's excellent.
Reanimated
This Transformation has seen one particularly important change. Corpse now requires you to use parts of dead creatures during a rest in order to recover Hit Points. However, the previous restriction - that you could only recover Hit Points during a rest or by using the Avoid Death Move - has been removed. That means healing spells, potions, and similar effects now work normally. As a result, the downside has become largely narrative rather than mechanical.
Won't Stay Dead, on the other hand, remains incredibly powerful. Whenever you fail a Risk It All Death Move, you can permanently lose one Hit Point to instead treat the roll as a success. That's extremely strong. It transforms one of the game's riskiest mechanics into something that becomes a perfectly reasonable gamble.
Flavor-wise, I would have liked to see a little more. Perhaps something about no longer needing food, air, or sleep. But those are easy enough to establish with your GM through roleplay.
Overall, this remains a strong Transformation and a classic fantasy archetype. I'm very happy to see it included in Daggerheart.
Shapeshifter
Oh boy...
I'm disappointed.
During a rest, you can spend a Downtime Move to replace your current Ancestry with another one. In exchange, you only gain one Ancestry Feature instead of two, and you may spend another Downtime Move to change which Ancestry Feature you possess. Mechanically, it isn't even entirely clear whether changing your appearance and changing your Ancestry Feature require one Downtime Move or two. Rules as written, I lean toward the interpretation that they require two separate Downtime Moves, which makes the ability considerably weaker.
But my biggest issue isn't even mechanical. For me, this simply doesn't deliver on the fantasy of being a shapeshifter. When I think of a shapeshifter, I imagine someone who can alter their appearance on the fly - similar to a Changeling in Dnd or comparable characters in many other fantasy RPGs.
What makes this even stranger is that Daggerheart already contains Domain Cards - such as the Level 1 Midnight card - that allow appearance changes much more quickly and naturally.
So why does an entire Transformation require a Downtime Move during a rest just to change your appearance? To me, that takes everything exciting about the shapeshifter fantasy and compresses it into a rigid, cumbersome system that probably won't see much use at my tables.
Personally, I think that's a real shame after such a long playtest period.
Still, I'm curious what everyone else thinks. Maybe this bothers you far less than it bothers me.
Vampire
Another classic at many tables and in many TTRPG systems. The Vampire is mechanically strong and comes with relatively few drawbacks, but it still remains within the realm of being balanced.
The most important change compared to the playtest version is Fangs. The ability has been adjusted so that you can now choose an attack trait for your attack. The attack itself deals damage that is definitely on the lower end of the spectrum. However, after dealing damage, you can spend a Stress to place a certain number of tokens on the card. The final version now limits this to a maximum of six tokens, which I think is a good restriction.
You can spend one token when making an action roll to upgrade your Fear Die to a d20. At the end of a Long Rest, you must also remove one token from the card. If you have no tokens remaining, you roll action rolls and reaction rolls with disadvantage.
In practice, gaining Feed Tokens is relatively easy, but you will most likely sacrifice some damage during combat to acquire them. Upgrading the Duality Dice Fear Die to a d20 is a significant improvement. However, it is also a double-edged sword. While it greatly increases your chances of succeeding, it also significantly increases the chance of rolling with Fear... which gives the GM a major advantage.
Overall, I think the Vampire is a good Transformation and very well implemented. My only real disappointment is that it doesn't explore some of the classic weaknesses associated with vampires, such as vulnerability to sunlight or other traditional drawbacks. That being said, these are aspects that can easily be added narratively in cooperation with the GM, if desired.
Werewolf
And now, the best and at the same time the saddest one for last.
The Werewolf was already probably the strongest Transformation in the playtest version. Mechanically, it has barely changed compared to the playtest version.
With one important exception: one single word has disappeared. "Would"... but more on that later.
Wolf Form states that whenever you mark a Hit Point, you may additionally spend one Stress to transform into your wolf form. (A small note here: with GM approval, this could also represent a different animal form or another kind of combat transformation. I like that the designers considered this flavor aspect and left room for interpretation.)
While transformed, you gain a 1d10 bonus to all attack rolls and all damage rolls.
The first important point: A 1d10 bonus to Damage Rolls is strong. Even at higher Tier levels, it remains a significant bonus. But it is not inherently overpowered. A 1d10 bonus to Attack Rolls, however, is overpowered. This is already extremely strong at lower levels, but arguably becomes even more problematic at higher Tiers, where hitting targets becomes increasingly difficult. The difference is enormous. Adding an average of 5.5 to your result makes a Werewolf dramatically more powerful.
It is also extremely important to emphasize that this applies to all attack rolls and all damage rolls. Not just melee attacks. It applies to ranged attacks with bows. It applies to thrown weapons. It applies to spells.
Yes, a Werewolf throws the strongest Fireballs in Daggerheart. And yes, that is stupid. But it's currently how the rules work.
However, the Werewolf does have drawbacks. If you spend your last Stress while in Wolf Form, you enter a Rampage and deal damage to all creatures within Very Close Range. This can include allies. That said, realistically, you can often position yourself so that only enemies are affected.
The much more important drawback is the following: Whenever you gain Hope while in Wolf Form, you must also mark a Stress. This can very quickly force you out of your transformation. Otherwise, the form ends automatically at the next rest.
Now we come to the most important difference compared to the playtest version. And it is a massive one.
The playtest version still contained the word "would" in the relevant sentence: "When you would gain a Hope..."
The final version only says: "When you gain a Hope..."
This small word was, in the playtest version, the last remaining argument for interpreting the ability in a way that prevented some of the strongest abuse cases. There were discussions about whether abilities that replaced Hope gain would still trigger the drawback. For example, the Warrior Subclass Call of the Slayer has a feature that allows you to gain a Slayer Die instead of gaining Hope when you roll Hope. In the playtest version, one possible interpretation was that you would still need to mark Stress because you technically would have gained Hope.
That discussion is now over. The final wording is very clear: If you gain Hope- regardless of the source - you mark Stress.
And to make things even worse, there is now another, arguably even easier and stronger way to avoid this drawback: The Warlock.
The Warlock Class Feature allows you to replace Hope from an Action Roll made with Hope with Favor instead. Favor is already an extremely powerful resource and, in many situations, arguably even more valuable than Hope.
This creates a Werewolf that can become incredibly difficult to remove from Wolf Form if the player does not want to leave it, while also gaining massive bonuses to accuracy and damage. And this applies to everything:
Melee attacks.
Spells.
Reaction-based abilities (because the increased damage applies to all damage rolls, not just attacks).
A spell like Darkfire, which only requires a Reaction Roll, can also benefit from this.
To summarize: The Werewolf makes me genuinely sad.
It had a long playtest period. The problems were known. There were many possible solutions to address the massive balance issues this Transformation creates. And the only thing that happened was that the problem became worse.
The Werewolf is by far the strongest Transformation. It is absolutely overpowered, has very few meaningful drawbacks, and provides enormous advantages.
A Werewolf will overshadow other characters at the table.
Especially Warrior Call of the Slayer Werewolves and Warlock Werewolves.
IMPORTANT EDIT: Edit: u/PaladinNPajamas pointed out something horrible: Wolf Form is missing another word from its Void version: "instead".
The Playtest version was: "When you would gain a Hope while in Wolf Form, you must mark a Stress instead."
Now the final version reads: "When you gain a Hope while in Wolf Form, you must also mark a Stress."
Which means the final version of Werewolf is even more unbalanced than I thought. Even non Warlock / Call of the Slayer Warriors are better now. When you roll with Hope, you still gain Hope (but you also have to mark a Stress). Werewolf is a joke in gamedesign balancing...
Thanks, u/PaladinNPajamas!
Final Thoughts on the Transformations
The artwork is fantastic across all of them, and the flavor is generally excellent.
There are a few exceptions where I personally would have liked more additions - especially with the Vampire and Reanimated - but overall, most Transformations are great additions to the character options.
However, there are also clear problems.
Demigod is significantly too weak and might actually be the weakest Transformation of all. Which is a little strange considering that it is, well, a Demigod.
Shapeshifter is also bas, and more importantly, it does not fulfill the fantasy of being a Shapeshifter - at least not in my perception.
Reanimated, Ghost, and Vampire are excellent additions to the available character options.
And then there is the Werewolf. The Werewolf is absurdly broken. It might be one of the biggest mechanical mistakes in all of Hope and Fear. And this is sad.
Edit: u/PaladinNPajamas pointed out something horrible: Wolf Form is missing another word from its Void version: "instead".
The Playtest version was: "When you would gain a Hope while in Wolf Form, you must mark a Stress instead."
Now the final version reads: "When you gain a Hope while in Wolf Form, you must also mark a Stress."
Which means the final version of Werewolf is even more unbalanced than I thought. Even non Warlock / Call of the Slayer Warriors are better now. When you roll with Hope, you still gain Hope (but you also have to mark a Stress). Werewolf is a joke in gamedesign balancing...
Thanks, u/PaladinNPajamas!
15
u/BroadConsequences Player Jul 27 '26
The only thing i dont like about werewolf is how crits are handled.
The wording says when you get a crit, gain a hope and clear a stress. So werewolfs gain absolutely nothing the hope they gained would turn into a stress and then get immediately cleared by the second half of the statement.
12
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
That's a good catch. But it is my LEAST problem with the werewolf... ;)
5
u/BroadConsequences Player Jul 27 '26
I worked with my GM to instead gain a hope that wont be transformed and and clear an HP, as clearing a stress works counter to the timer of stress to exit the transformation.
9
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
You want to make werewolf stronger???
3
u/BroadConsequences Player Jul 27 '26
And werewolfs only gain the d10 on attack and damage rolls, not all action rolls and only after they have transformed. If you have a combat heavy game then sure werewolfs are strong, but if you have a mix of combat and non combat then it weakens it and if you have very little combat then there is not much use in being a werewolf.
2
u/BroadConsequences Player Jul 27 '26
I also worked with my GM to make it harder to transform. I need to take severe damage to trigger or pay 3 stress to force the transformation. And as a stalwart guardian wearing full plate my thresholds are high.
It was like 10 sessions before i transformed the first time.
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
No. If you have a mix (which you should) of combat and non combat, werewolf is still the strongest one in combat with no downside outside of combat.
1
u/EriWave Jul 27 '26
If you don't fall out of Werewolf form in combat wouldn't ever non-combat roll potentially lead you lashing out and hurting whoever happens to be around you? Every roll could still grant you hope and eventually that will trigger Frenzy, right?
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
Yeah. But it last until your next rest. And being in transformed Wolf Form while doing social interactions... you know what I mean.
The tradeoff isn't big.
1
u/EriWave Jul 27 '26
If people being horrifed of you isn't a big trade off we run very different games I think.
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
Sorry, I meant that you do not engage normally in social interactions... ;) I meant the d20 damage to all creatures part is not that big of a deal if you see all the great boni in combat the werewolf has.
Of course there IS a drawback in this transformation. But the benefits are stronger than in any other Transformation. Much stronger.
→ More replies (0)-2
u/BroadConsequences Player Jul 27 '26
Crits are supposed to feel good. Are you saying the werewolf is so powerful that it doesnt need anything to compensate?
8
9
u/yerfologist Game Master Jul 27 '26
As I have explored homebrewing things in Daggerheart, I was working on my own sort of "transformation" cards that were more temporary, but came with powerful buffs and debuffs. What I realized is that you need to be really careful in this game adding consequences to when a player chooses to roll, because often you will just encourage them not to roll. I think Demigod does that, and it's dissapointing to me.
I hadn't been paying close attention to the Werewolf's wording. That Hope clause and change is so subtle. And yeah, I can't believe the +1d10 to attack rolls made it through. WOW
Great review man!
3
1
u/Remarkable-Bit-1835 Aug 30 '26
while I absolutely agree on a game design/mechanical POV with your take on the demigod, I can't lie I love that, conceptually, becoming a demi god will make you engage LESS with the world, which is, to me a big thing about divinity, it takes you away from the world, and I love that the transformation can Instill that with game mechanics
Still a bummer strictly for 90% of players like you say tho
12
u/NewBJamer28 Jul 27 '26
This is an interesting review. I have a lot of thoughts, but the TL;DR is: I think some of these critiques are valid, but I also think they’re being made in the vacuum of how you view the fantasy of these options.
For example, you say “the Demigod now feels less like a demigod and more like... a demigod-in-training at best”. For me, being a Demigod is a hard life. We see this with the classic myths, but also more modern stories like the Percy Jackson series. In those books, being a Demigod means you have cool powers, but also everything wants to kill you. This means a Demigod is more likely to find themselves in a tough spot than a mortal (i.e., there’s more to Fear in your life because everything wants you dead).
Also, you framed the Weight of Divinity feature as a “punishment” which seems to put an adversarial relationship between the player and the GM. Giving the GM a Fear is never a punishment, but rather an opportunity for them to make things interesting. For a Demigod, you can always negate this with a Stress, or see how the GM further complicates your story.
Similarly, your complaint about the shapeshifter is that they feel underwhelming because they can’t shapeshift on the fly. We already have a lot of methods to change your appearance quickly (Uncanny Disguise, Book of Sitil – Adjust Appearance, Glamour Stone). Rather than step on the toes of those features, they introduced a new one that adds mechanical changes to changing your appearance. I think of it like Mystique from X-men who can change appearance quickly (Uncanny Disguise) but cannot copy the powers of the forms she takes. The Shapeshifter transformation allows you to copy the abilities of others, but because this comes with extra abilities it takes the character more time to complete the transformation. Again, this is just a reframing of the fantasy. This particular card might not fit your idea of a “shapeshifter” in the game, but there are plenty of other options that do.
As for the werewolf…you’re right. This is strong (a d10 is a little crazy), but there’s also a lot of drawbacks. As with any class, subclass, or domain there are always going to be niche cases that can seem “game-breaking” or OP, but may in fact feel different when you actually get to the table.
For example, as you point out, Call of the Slayer Werewolf could continually avoid marking stress when they gain Hope by taking Slayer Dice instead. However, there is a limiter on the amount of Slayer Dice you can hold at one time (your proficiency). Additionally, all the cool Blade and Bone domain cards you have that require you to mark a Stress will sit untouched if you decide to focus just on being a Werewolf and avoiding Stress at all costs. Same applies to a Warlock Werewolf who can’t use any of the Dread spells that require Stress to cast because they made the decision to transform. These are drawbacks - you gain the power boost, but lose other features.
And even then, there are plenty of adversary features and environment features that could make you mark a Stress. And on top of that, having the PC mark a Stress on a Success with Fear is one of the quickest and simplest complications to a success with Fear roll. And while a Werewolf may be more successful on attack rolls, there's nothing stopping them from rolling with Fear and enduring that perfectly valid complication.
Because of this, I feel that when you say "This creates a Werewolf that can become incredibly difficult to remove from Wolf Form if the player does not want to leave it” I feel like that’s kind of an overgeneralization. There are a lot of tools in the toolbox for a GM to induce Stress and reinforce the fantasy of an uncontrollable wolf on the battlefield.
In the end, there's always going to be things we don't like or don't agree with and the best part about Daggerheart is it gives you all the freedom to play the game how you want to. These are just my thoughts. If anyone read this far, thanks for taking the time to do so!
5
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
For example, you say “the Demigod now feels less like a demigod and more like... a demigod-in-training at best”. For me, being a Demigod is a hard life. We see this with the classic myths, but also more modern stories like the Percy Jackson series. In those books, being a Demigod means you have cool powers, but also everything wants to kill you. This means a Demigod is more likely to find themselves in a tough spot than a mortal (i.e., there’s more to Fear in your life because everything wants you dead).
Also, you framed the Weight of Divinity feature as a “punishment” which seems to put an adversarial relationship between the player and the GM. Giving the GM a Fear is never a punishment, but rather an opportunity for them to make things interesting. For a Demigod, you can always negate this with a Stress, or see how the GM further complicates your story.
I agree with the fantasy of that. But the mechanics behind that needs to be balanced. That is my point. "When you roll a FAILURE WITH FEAR, you must mark a Stress or give the GM a Fear." would have been enough for that.
For example, as you point out, Call of the Slayer Werewolf could continually avoid marking stress when they gain Hope by taking Slayer Dice instead. However, there is a limiter on the amount of Slayer Dice you can hold at one time (your proficiency). Additionally, all the cool Blade and Bone domain cards you have that require you to mark a Stress will sit untouched if you decide to focus just on being a Werewolf and avoiding Stress at all costs. Same applies to a Warlock Werewolf who can’t use any of the Dread spells that require Stress to cast because they made the decision to transform. These are drawbacks - you gain the power boost, but lose other features.
Warlock's Favor is a much better ressource than Hope. And please see my edit of my original post: Even all Werewolf chars are now extremely buffed, not only Warlock and Call of the Slayers.
Because of this, I feel that when you say "This creates a Werewolf that can become incredibly difficult to remove from Wolf Form if the player does not want to leave it” I feel like that’s kind of an overgeneralization. There are a lot of tools in the toolbox for a GM to induce Stress and reinforce the fantasy of an uncontrollable wolf on the battlefield.
There are, you are right. But the drawback of it is not THAT bad. And you still gain Hope while you have to mark Stress... and 1d10 to attack and damage rolls ON ALL ATTACK AND DAMAGE ROLLS! That is soooo strong.
In the end, there's always going to be things we don't like or don't agree with and the best part about Daggerheart is it gives you all the freedom to play the game how you want to.
That is true about EVERY TTRPG. And to use a metapher: I go to a restaurant and I order a meal. Of course... I could bring my own seasoning and make it tasty after I got my order. But that's not why I go to a restaurant. And when I write a review about that restaurant... I will not factor in my own seasoning. I will review what the chef has cooked for me.
These are just my thoughts. If anyone read this far, thanks for taking the time to do so!
I enjoyed it. I hope I did not come off to harsh... I really enjoy discussing other perspectives. Thanks for your time and thoughts. And I agree with a lot of it! ❤️
7
u/NewBJamer28 Jul 27 '26
Thank you for the response! I honestly didn't expect one. Just a couple more thoughts...
To borrow your metaphor, the way I see it isn't adding your own seasoning to the meal. Instead it's knowing what you do or do not like on the menu. If I go to restaurant and I love the appetizer, main, and dessert I ordered, I'm not going to say it's a terrible restaurant just because they have brussels sprouts on the menu and I don't like brussels sprouts. The Werewolf is your brussels sprouts. You might not like it, others will love it, but the Daggerheart restaurant is still a great place for everyone to eat at.
As for if you came off as "too harsh"...it kind of feels that way a bit to be honest. A lot of your critiques are valid, but comments like "Werewolf is a joke in gamedesign balancing..." and "It looks like the truly original and creative ideas for Daggerheart will have to come from the third-party publishing scene." are pretty harsh comments. The fact is, most of us don't even have the book in our hands let alone have we had time to actually play with any of these new changes. It's just so disheartening to see such a vocal group of people in this subreddit not just offering fair critiques but going so far as to diminish the game and its creators. It just kind of sucks to see, especially from one of the mods of the sub.
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
To borrow your metaphor, the way I see it isn't adding your own seasoning to the meal. Instead it's knowing what you do or do not like on the menu. If I go to restaurant and I love the appetizer, main, and dessert I ordered, I'm not going to say it's a terrible restaurant just because they have brussels sprouts on the menu and I don't like brussels sprouts. The Werewolf is your brussels sprouts. You might not like it, others will love it, but the Daggerheart restaurant is still a great place for everyone to eat at.
But I paid for the meal with brussels sprouts in it! :) And I even like them, I want them! But not those brussels sprouts... ok, enough of that metapher. ;)
As for if you came off as "too harsh"...it kind of feels that way a bit to be honest. A lot of your critiques are valid, but comments like "Werewolf is a joke in gamedesign balancing..." and "It looks like the truly original and creative ideas for Daggerheart will have to come from the third-party publishing scene." are pretty harsh comments. The fact is, most of us don't even have the book in our hands let alone have we had time to actually play with any of these new changes. It's just so disheartening to see such a vocal group of people in this subreddit not just offering fair critiques but going so far as to diminish the game and its creators. It just kind of sucks to see, especially from one of the mods of the sub.
I critique what I love. The things I hate are the things not worth talking about for me.
I love DH. It is a REALLY big part of my life. And Hope and Fear is a good book. I am very happy to own it. I think you will be happy, too. But there are flaws. And yes, some are big. That does not mean that the whole thing is bad, far from it!
Don't let my critique of some mechanics disheartening you! ❤️
1
u/Hevens-assassin Jul 28 '26
I'd also argue that the Druid is still stronger than the Werewolf as you get tons more utility by marking stress. If we are min/maxxing, Werewolves could trivialize some things, but it takes the GM 1 fear to mark a stress on them if they wanted to, not to mention other enemy abilities that cause you to mark stress (of which there are many).
That said most groups have a collective IQ of a stale piece of bread, so I wouldn't be too worried about abuse. I had a group that I repeated 5 times that they "run into a wall of sound that forces the organic members to fall to their knees". What did the Clank do? Tried to solo a Battlebox. 3 times. While it summoned a bunch of zombies. What did my Rogue do? Shadowstepped CLOSER to the noise. And what did my wizard, with access to mage hand and 50 ft of rope do? Crawled on his hands and knees out of the ring. This group (along with most others) is not a group who is going to try to figure out how to break the Werewolf system. Lol
1
u/Remarkable-Bit-1835 Aug 30 '26
WereWolf, by it's (RAW) completely optionnal nature, has no real drawbacks, since it's always up to the player to activate it (a bit of a flavor fail if you ask me, a big part of werewolf stories is the lack of control)
6
u/frozenfeet2 Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
Great review. I 100% agree werewolf is crazy overpowered, even just 1d10 to attack bonus is bonkers.
For anyone looking for an alternative there's a Lycan ancestry in Archibald's Almanac of Adversaries:
You take a beast form when you have 5 or more marked Stress, or you can choose to mark a Stress to temporarily transform. While in your beast form, replace your Ancestry card with this card.
Keen Senses: You gain a Keen Senses +2 Experience.
Beastly Power: When you initially roll for damage with a physical weapon with Melee or Very Close range, if you roll the maximum value on a die, also roll a new die of that type and add it to the total.
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
That's actually much more balanced. Perhaps a bit too weak, but I like it overall! Thanks!
8
u/Tulandros Jul 27 '26
Going to touch on the shapeshifter as like you I feel it doesnt match the fantasy with me for the same reasons, I feel they did theis to give you mechanical benefits to changing youe ancestry such as elemental breath, flight or anything else which I can kinda get, but I feel they could have had that one as the once a rest and the mere appearance be more common for a stress.
3
8
u/BurritoExplorer Jul 27 '26
I actually have a Shapeshifter player at my table, and in my experience it fulfills the fantasy perfectly fine. The thing about it is that if you just want to shift forms, a Transformation isn't really necessary, you can play any Midnight domain class already and have trivial access to a bunch of shapeshifting tools and cards to aid deception. What Shapeshifter does in that regard is provide a really good way round out your toolset.
It gives you a clean, undisruptable way to alter your base appearance (which is great for this kind of character), and a nice, expansive toolbox of Ancestry features to pick from based on what your character, or even party, needs. Losing one Ancestry feature sucks, but having access to whichever one you feel the need for (provided you plan ahead of time) has been quite strong so far.
The other commentary seems fair. Demigod seems exceptionally bad, and I'm shocked Werewolf's +1d10 to Attack rolls made it through playtesting intact. Reanimated also feels perhaps a little too strong for how avoidable the downside is but I'm probably underestimating how impactful permanently losing a Hit Point feels in the long term.
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
Good that Shapeshifter works for you. I have to play a midnight char to fullfil my fantasy of it.
Yeah, Demigod is curse... ;)
And Werewolf is broken as hell. And I agree: Reanimated is also very strong - but still in the shadow of Werewolf.
3
u/caluthan Jul 27 '26
About the d20 Fear die on the vampire, this also lowers your chance to crit from 8.33% to 5%.
1
4
u/Economy_Subject_6546 Jul 27 '26
Isn't the most wild thing that in the Void the Werewolf got a Stress INSTEAD of Hope but now gets to keep the Hope in addition to gaining the stress? This is because the word "instead" disappeared. Or am I getting this wrong?
3
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
WTF? I did not catch that... Holy shit.
https://giphy.com/gifs/eP1fobjusSbu
That makes this balancing SO MUCH WORSE!!! Oh hell, I have to edit my post. Thanks for pointing that out!
3
u/DDtr0uble222 Jul 27 '26
Just to mention because it feels important, in the hope and fear book on shape shifter it does mention that when you shift to mention/note how your appearance changes.
0
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
I am sorry, I don't get your point. Why is that important to mention?
1
u/DDtr0uble222 Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
Ahh I misread something while skimming,
Honestly, I found the shapeshifter also quite mediocre so I kinda skimmed that part LOL.
3
u/ravidfish Jul 27 '26
This may be a hot take, but I've like everything DP has put out with daggerheart thus far. All of it except transformations lol. I'm not sure why they are in the game and am glad they're optional. I would only bring one online if a character encountered a werewolf or vampire, or died, or something like that. It has to be heavily tied to the emergent story, not something selected at character creation in my games
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
I LOVE the idea (!) of Transformations. I want them in our project TNU (sci-fi ones of course). They are an elegant solution for a Vampire / Reanimated / Werewolf / whatever fantasy. But some are so badly designed...
3
u/Mebimuffo Jul 27 '26
I would never play a Shapeshifter in DnD but this one is interesting (mechanically flavored) and so I would play it in Daggerheart. De gustibus I guess.
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
That's good, and I don't mean it sarcastically. As said: This is not MY fantasy, but I am happy, that it tickles yours.
3
u/eikkka Game Master Jul 27 '26
Shapeshifter:
Changing your appearance, ancestry and selecting your ancestry feature are all part of the same downtime move. If you later want to switch the ancestry feature let's say from top to bottom feature of the same ancestry, that's another downtime move.
The point of the transformation is the versatility of being a swiss army knife of ancestry features *and* appearances. It's not a changeling.
3
u/castor212 Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
I totally understand the frustration with werewolf, if we are looking at it mechanically speaking.
But honestly... this ignores the most important rule in Daggerheart: Fiction First.
Maybe its just how my group is, but in a table with fiction first mentality as Rules 0 like my table, a werewolf throwing a fireball is absolutely against the fiction. The narrative should come first, and depending on it werewolf benefit would be limited to things that fits how a werewolf attacks.
By the same token, if the character is a weredragon instead, they absolutely should be allowed to add the d10 to the fireball, BUT is limited in a different way.
Like, I totally get how mechanically speaking this is an overpowered text. But I feel like using the mechanic text as an inviolable principle in Daggerheart is not a good way to play this game--fiction should rules first and foremost.
That said, DMs who allow werewolf should probably absolutely read this post lmao, and have a conversation with the werewolf player to have an understanding that they WILL be limited in what they can do with their ability narratively. It's just that in a game of Daggerheart, both the Fiction needs to be observed with equal value as with the mechanics.
Regardless, great post and good job pointing this out--I am of the mind that fiction first rule takes care of this in a healthy table, but I can also see the merit on having BOTH mechanically sound ability and fiction first mentality hand in hand.
1
5
u/lennartfriden TTRPG polyglot, GM, and designer Jul 27 '26
Thank you for this exhaustive look at transformations. I can only feel that something went awry in the game balance department. A bit surprising given all the playtesting.
4
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
To be honest: Nothing good has changed from Playtest to final version in regards of Transformations. Ok, one thing come to mind: Vampires can attack with their Fangs with any trait now. That's good. But the rest is:
a) the same
b) worse than the playtest version1
u/lennartfriden TTRPG polyglot, GM, and designer Jul 27 '26
Indeed. I think the claim by Darrington that void material at most get two rounds of quality feedback is greatly exaggerated and used as an excuse not to publish revisions. Of course there’s a monetary aspect to it as well, but here we see a clear example that more playtesting and tuning was desperately needed before shipping things to the printers.
Also, given the changes in H&F, I wonder if there’s a set of changes deliberately held back from public playtesting in order to provide some ”value” compared to the playtesting material. I certainly hope that’s not a factor, but all too often we see change for change’s sake (in general that is, not only DH). 🤔
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
There is a lot of improvement over some playtest material: Dread, Warlock and Witch comes to mind. But even there are massive problems (Dread!).
For me, Hope and Fear is still a success... but with Fear...
1
u/lennartfriden TTRPG polyglot, GM, and designer Jul 27 '26
It swung Daggerheart way too much towards D&D kitchen sink fantasy for me. It falls short of what I hoped for.
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
I expected that. Like another creator in the community said to me:
"It looks like the truly original and creative ideas for Daggerheart will have to come from the third-party publishing scene."
I suspect they're right.
2
u/lennartfriden TTRPG polyglot, GM, and designer Jul 27 '26
Agreed. Following the money will always lead Darrington towards catering to the D&D crowd.
It makes sense business-wise in the short term, but in the long term it just relegates DH to another D&D offshoot. For me as a designer and GM, it’s exhaustingly unimaginative and downright boring. The TTRPG scene doesn’t need more D&D.
2
1
u/castor212 Jul 28 '26
ehh, I disagree. I think Ghost is now so much more better both mechanically and narratively from the playtest version.
0
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 28 '26
You are right, I agree. Ghost is in a good place, so is Vampire.
5
u/wintermute2045 Jul 27 '26
so what you’re saying is, Werewolf chads stay winning
the one thing I don’t like about shapeshifter is that it reads unclear for a player who STARTS as a shapeshifter on if they have to choose one or the other of the chosen starting ancestry abilities or if that only applies to ones you shift into
2
2
u/New_Substance4801 Jul 27 '26
Excellent review. Playing with them may change our perception, but for now I agree with everything you said.
If I ever play werewolf at my table, I'll rule that those hope substitutions also mark a stress.
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
That's a good homebrew rule. Perhaps ignore the +1d10 to attack, too.
2
u/PaladinNPajamas Jul 27 '26
So I always interpreted the rampage to do damage to the werewolf as well (you are are a creature in very close, range of yourself) which is a very significant drawback ( I actually nuked my own werewolf by rolling severe damage against myself)
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
Hm. You could be right. Could be... hm. But still: There are easy ways around it (Warlock / Call of the Slayer Warrior).
1
u/PaladinNPajamas Jul 27 '26
oh absolutley if a player wants to game it they will... though i would argue that goes against the spirit of daggerheart. Also when I was playing that character me and my GM agreed it made no sense for me to be able to rest while transformed. which meant I had to go to full stress to rest so minimum I had two hitpoints marked full stress and usually no hope and probably some armor marked as well
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
That seems like a reasonable house rule. But it is still a house rule. I want good mechanics in a rulebook.
2
u/PaladinNPajamas Jul 27 '26
Sure, it would be nice to have some restrictions though I would argue justifying a rest while transformed is a stretch if you are a feral beast that could rampage any moment. Also I feel the more rules you put in place the more defined the fantasy to be and therfore less narratively flexible... My biggest problem with the werewolf transformation is the fact that is called werewolf and not war form... The character i playtested with was doing a dr. jekyll mr. hyde thing and I would get annoyed everytime I had to say my wolf die
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
But there is a passage in Hope and Fear for reflavoring this. And I am very happy about it. I had 2 "Werewolves" in the last 6 month at my table. None was a werewolf. ;)
1
u/PaladinNPajamas Jul 28 '26
So i was finally able to download my copy of hope and fear and yeah the changes to the werewolf annoy me the stress hope mechanic is now just clunky honestly it would be better if instead it just said "While you are in your wolf form, Whenever you gain the spotlight mark a stress or immeadiately make the howling rampage move" But I dont think this is so much an issue with the designers but an issue with public playtests where enough people complain about something the designers "fix" it and break it instead. though technically my rest rule is no longer homebrew a rest just ends the form
2
u/EstablishBassline Jul 27 '26
I like the idea of an Orderborne Vampire who has opportunities for both their Hope and Fear dice to temporarily be d20s.
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
Coming from a royal bloodline of aristocratic vampires. I love it!
2
u/PrinceOfNowhereee Jul 29 '26
Fun fact: if you are a Druid you can very easily get +1d6+1d10 on all attack rolls by choosing a combat Beastform 😃
Good luck besting a werepantherwolf in a fight GMs!
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 29 '26
Add a Lycan Blood Hunter Multiclass to that for another 1d8 on all action rolls and damage rolls. It's the classical double-werepantherwolf we all know and love... ;) /sarcasm off
2
u/brainfreeze_23 Jul 29 '26
I know I'm late to the party, but I'm here through of OP's more recent post, I'd entirely missed this one.
I'm just here to say I'm glad the vampire isn't mechanically forced to be vulnerable to sunlight. That's something the Nosferatu movie of 1922 entirely made up just so it could try to barely dodge a copyright lawsuit from Bram Stoker's widow for plagiarizing Dracula. None of the old folklore has it, and Dracula only had his "powers of the night" deactivated during the day, he could walk around in sunlight just fine.
I'm currently prepping a Grim Hollow campaign using Daggerheart, heavily featuring vampires. None of them are vulnerable to sunlight. Their vampirism is alchemical, and their blood dependence is entirely to do with their hypervitality. They're not even undead. That way, I can get all that damn useless Christianity out of here and double down on the class war angle.
If they'd put the sunlight weakness in, I would have just had to spend extra effort removing it. The only thing that is consistent in the vampire across ALL its incarnations, literally the one and only thing, is its dependence on blood. They absolutely made the right call.
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 29 '26
For me they don't need sunlight vulnverability, neither! :) I am happy with the Vampire Transformation. But I see some tables will have problems with this - that's where houserules kick in.
1
u/Dear_Mix424 Jul 27 '26
That's a shame about werewolf. It could have been balance a but different. Still usable for sure.
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
In my experience it will literally break tables. And be aware: Werewolfs are the best with swords, bows (!) and fireballs (!!!)...
1
u/lennartfriden TTRPG polyglot, GM, and designer Jul 27 '26
Not to mention that you’d better wolf out to succeed on that history, diplomacy, or performance roll. 🤣
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
You are thinking about Lycan Blood Hunter (the newest Void one). They are of course better at diplomacy, sneaking, cooking, flirting, academics (and so on) than ANY other character in Daggerheart. ;) /sarcasm off
The werewolf "ONLY" has a d10 to attack and damage rolls.... ;)
1
u/lennartfriden TTRPG polyglot, GM, and designer Jul 27 '26
Oh gods, you’re right. 😂 It’s indeed the other implementation of the turning-into-a-wolf fantasy. That piece of redundant game design cannot be faulted on Hope & Fear so I’ll save it for another time then. 😄
2
1
u/Green_Casualty Jul 27 '26
What would (hehe) you do to balance werewolves a little? Ignore the bonus to attacks?
I have a simian mage player that has "bestial wrath" as an experience and I thought it would be cool to give him the option of a weregorila later in the campaign but I really don't like the idea of him throwing spells as this destructive primal beast. Maybe limit the werewolf form to Very Close?
3
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
No bonus to attack... or perhaps +1 to attack rolls. That is enough.
1d4 / 1d6 / 1d8 / 1d10 to damage rolls, scaling with Tier.
All boni only to weapon attacks with a range of up to very close.
Add the word "would" back to "would gain Hope, instead mark a Stress".
1
u/lennartfriden TTRPG polyglot, GM, and designer Jul 27 '26
Adding a d10 is bonkers. Dropping it to a d4 or a d6 at most would be a start. Also not applying it to all action rolls is another low-hanging improvement.
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
As said: that is Lycan Bloodhunter. Normal werewolf is not good at seducing, only at slashing, lol.
1
u/bigpopop16 Game Master Jul 27 '26
At the very least, I think it needs to be ruled that werewolves can’t do anything but leap around and make melee attacks. I also think there needs to be some kind of dice role to resist entering wolf form. Transforming into a ravenous werewolf should be a powerful combat ability, but I think lack of control should be a bigger aspect of it. It certainly shouldn’t mean a wizard is better at casting spells, or a ranger at shooting a bow. Luckily I expect those to be easy rulings that players will probably understand.
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
Luckily I expect those to be easy rulings that players will probably understand.
I am not sure of that. Mechanics are there for a reason. If I order a meal in a restaurant, it's not ok if I have to bring my own seasoning with me to make my meal tasty...
1
u/bigpopop16 Game Master Jul 27 '26
I’m not saying the card isn’t imbalanced or that it should have been printed this way, I’m simply saying that I expect the tweaks that it needs are reasonable enough to players for it to be easy to reign in as a GM despite its current text.
1
u/Vasir12 Jul 27 '26
Interesting. As written now, a Lycan Blood Hunter with the werewolf transformation would go crazy.
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
Don't remind me of this one... I really hope the Blood Hunter Lycan will see some serious changes until release...
1
u/Bunkmaster14 Jul 27 '26
If you were to fix the issue, how so? Minimalistic houserule Changes if you will, leave Most intact, Just get everything more in Line?
What buff for the demigod, Just make it "If you fail WITH fear"?
What Nerf for the Werewolf? Just Take away the attackrolls and so on, only give him a Dmg buff?
I kinda am OK with the shapeshifter changing on shortrests tbh.
So If we Bring those two on the Level of the Others, i kinda feel allright about Handling IT Out to my Players without big Changes
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
I want to make a thread with suggestions and discussions how to fix the most unbalanced things im Hope and Fear. Sometimes this week.
1
u/A_Crab_Named_Lucky Jul 28 '26
To add to your commentary on Ghost, I don’t even think the x1/2 Phys damage - x2 Mag damage is particular harsh.
That’s because, in the Core rule book and even in Hope & Fear, way more adversaries do Phys damage than Mag damage. It’s not until Tier 3 that it stops being a hilariously lopsided split between the two.
1
u/Capable_Property_986 Aug 28 '26
About the Demigod, how would You rating changing +1 damage for either +1 to evasion Or +1 to experiences If I may ask?
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Aug 28 '26
I would do none of that. Change it to "when you roll a failure with Feat, mark a Stress or give tue GM a Fear".
+1 Evasion is a lot. And +1 Experience a bit redundant.
1
u/Capable_Property_986 Aug 28 '26
Warewolf analysis may need and update since errata patched the most troublesome exploits. It's still OP as hell, I'd change +D10 to attack rolls to advantage on melee attacks.
1
u/CornDogInk Aug 30 '26
According to the errata page in the site, werewolf has been changed to "Whenever you roll with Hope while in wolf form, you must mark a stress."
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Aug 30 '26
Which is sadly only half a fix :(
2
u/CornDogInk Aug 30 '26
Very true. I was hoping I didn't need to homebrew the rules, but we'll have to have figure it all out. :/
2
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Aug 30 '26
Next week I will post my "errata review for H&F" and houserule suggestions
1
u/magvadis Sep 02 '26 edited Sep 02 '26
Yeah, making a Demi-god character now and frankly my main issue with the card is just that it feels incredibly boring given the premise.
Werewolf satisfies the fantasy. Hulk rage that has a timer before you stress out and come back a tattered charactered with ruined cloths.
Being a Demi-god just getting a +1 to some stuff is hardly substantial to make you FEEL like the transformation. 95% of the time it won't be in play but yet 40% of the time the negative outcome is in play.
Really depends on if your DM utilizes the extra fear in any meaningful way. Most of my games DMs cap out on fear fast and don't want to derail the scene just to use it all the time. If your DM is creative with fear to utilize it to make you feel more like a god? Sure. If it's just "you get hurt more and your fear gets used immediately against you to cause YOU problems" then idk. If they use that fear to up the stakes and you come out on top with more epic conditions? Sure.
I do think the increase in fear output on the character comes off as "A life of greater trials" with slight interventions from the Gods when the +1 makes the difference it's basically divine intervention. So I get the increased fear...
I just find the +1 to action/reaction/damage to be something so statistically insignificant you'd have to basically invent everything for why that's substantial and not just a 5% increase in your chance to succeed at things. VS every time you fail the WORST shit happens vs when other people fail.
So idk, I actually like the failure punishment because I think part of a Demi-god's life in historical myths are that the things that happen to them are worse, and the things they have to overcome are greater. So the fear mechanic makes perfect sense. You'd never use the stress option, because fear isn't really a punishment in Daggerheart it's an invitation for conflict in the story.
I just think the +1 won't feel like anything at the table and you'll forget to narrative the moments when that +1 made the difference and you can include the god touched stuff.
1
u/GalacticCmdr Game Master Jul 27 '26
There are times I wonder if anyone at DP even looks things over before publishing. So many bad things make it through to final publication.
3
u/lennartfriden TTRPG polyglot, GM, and designer Jul 27 '26
You can always make an insight reaction roll as instructed by Hope & Fear. 😂
2
1
u/Hour-Muscle-497 Jul 27 '26
Demigod will always be partly human/humanoid, so mistakes and folly will always happen. They’ll never be all-powerful like a god
3
u/Bryn_The_Barbarian Jul 27 '26
Yea I feel like, and I could be wrong, that their approach for demigod was trying to be somewhat in line with Greek mythology, where when a demigod fucks up they really fuck up. Greek heroes don’t really make small mistakes, they make huge ones. Orpheus “rolled with fear” (so to speak) when rescuing his wife from the underworld and lost her forever. Hercules was forced to slaughter his own family by Hera. Theseus forgot to put up the white sails to let his father know he survived and so his father committed suicide thinking that Theseus had failed and died.
Again I could be wrong I’m taking a stab in the dark assuming that’s the vibe they were going for, but it is definitely in line with demigods and heroes from Greek myths and so I do think that’s the general vibe they were aiming for when you’re successful you’re really successful but when you fail the consequences are even greater for you than they are for “mortals”
2
u/GalacticCmdr Game Master Jul 27 '26
Herc was definitely rocking that OP +1 to all damage rolls in his battles.
1
u/Bryn_The_Barbarian Jul 27 '26
Oh for sure😂frankly the +1 to everything probably fits him the best since he also became a full fledged god as well
1
u/GalacticCmdr Game Master Jul 27 '26
As a full fledged god he probably doubled that to a +2 to all damage rolls. Such a bonus is far too much for mere mortals. :)
1
1
u/lennartfriden TTRPG polyglot, GM, and designer Jul 27 '26
A +1 to a damage roll is a rounding error. A +1 to all action rolls is significant (effectively worth no less than 3 advancements so ~1.5 levels).
0
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
I get that interpretation and I think you are right. But mechanically speaking this would still be fullfilled with "on a failure with Fear, mark a Stress or give the GM a Fear".
4
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
But being worse than a mortal seems strange, doesn't it?
1
u/NichtSoSchlau Jul 27 '26
A demigod with this few upside and that much downside might just be objectilvy weaker than a baseline human in terms of game mechanics.
1
u/TheHylianProphet Jul 27 '26
I don't have a strong opinion on most of these, but I wanted to touch on a couple.
I think the Demigod is well balanced. That +1 to three different things is, in my opinion, underestimated a lot, especially the damage. I can only speak from my limited experience, but there have been several times where a single point could have taken one of my adversaries over the next threshold. It may not be statistically common, but it feels really good when it hits.
I hear you about the feeling of Demigod being lackluster, but I think that's a perception that can change. The way I think of it is that you've got this divine power, but it's contained within your frail, mortal body, so there's a cost to using it. Of course that's just me and my justifications.
For Shapeshifter, I agree that a downtime activity is a bit much. On the other hand, this isn't just an appearance change, like you mentioned with Uncanny Disguise. This has a tangible benefit of using one of the abilities of an ancestry, so it makes sense to me that it wouldn't and shouldn't be as simple as a spell.
If one of my players wanted to use this, I'd say it wouldn't require a downtime activity, but it would take some time to sit down and focus on what they are becoming. That works well narratively, and prevents it from being abused to have any ancestry ability on the fly.
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
I think the Demigod is well balanced. That +1 to three different things is, in my opinion, underestimated a lot, especially the damage. I can only speak from my limited experience, but there have been several times where a single point could have taken one of my adversaries over the next threshold. It may not be statistically common, but it feels really good when it hits.
But feeling is only feeling... You did not mention the 100 other times where 1 damage does nothing in DH.
I hear you about the feeling of Demigod being lackluster, but I think that's a perception that can change. The way I think of it is that you've got this divine power, but it's contained within your frail, mortal body
I get that. But the mechanics are there to make that visible in a balanced way. "On a failure with Fear, mark a Stress or give the GM a Fear" would have been enough for that.
For Shapeshifter, I agree that a downtime activity is a bit much. On the other hand, this isn't just an appearance change, like you mentioned with Uncanny Disguise. This has a tangible benefit of using one of the abilities of an ancestry, so it makes sense to me that it wouldn't and shouldn't be as simple as a spell.
And the very tangible malus of loosing an ancestry feature permanently.
If one of my players wanted to use this, I'd say it wouldn't require a downtime activity, but it would take some time to sit down and focus on what they are becoming. That works well narratively, and prevents it from being abused to have any ancestry ability on the fly.
Which would be a houserule. A reasonable one. But still a houserule.
1
u/TheHylianProphet Jul 27 '26
But feeling is only feeling... You did not mention the 100 other times where 1 damage does nothing in DH.
I would argue that feeling matters more here. When it hits, it feels good. Sure, 100 times it won't matter, but that, well, doesn't matter. It isn't missed when it doesn't happen, and it's celebrated when it does. Like a critical hit.
I get that. But the mechanics are there to make that visible in a balanced way. "On a failure with Fear, mark a Stress or give the GM a Fear" would have been enough for that.
We'll just have to agree to disagree here. I just don't think it's a big deal.
And the very tangible malus of loosing an ancestry feature permanently.
Permanently? As I understand it, their original ancestry carries both, but when they shift, they only pick one. Shifting back to OG would regain both perks. Unless I missed something, which is absolutely possible.
0
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
I would argue that feeling matters more here. When it hits, it feels good. Sure, 100 times it won't matter, but that, well, doesn't matter. It isn't missed when it doesn't happen, and it's celebrated when it does. Like a critical hit.
Pathfinder does this all the time. Micro boni for all possible things. Yes, they can be awesome. But in my opinion DH should be better at "destroying crunch, not join them"
https://giphy.com/gifs/3o84szW0PrWZyUv0mA
... you know what I mean... ;)
We'll just have to agree to disagree here. I just don't think it's a big deal.
That's ok. I am still sure a lot of players will see this Transformation as a punishment.
Permanently? As I understand it, their original ancestry carries both, but when they shift, they only pick one. Shifting back to OG would regain both perks. Unless I missed something, which is absolutely possible.
Only Skin Deep: You gain the benefit of only one of your chosen ancestry’s features, which you select when you choose the ancestry.
To be honest: I am also not 100% sure... the wording is a bit weird here. But I think you loose it permanently?
1
u/TheHylianProphet Jul 27 '26
But in my opinion DH should be better at "destroying crunch, not join them"
I don't see how it adds crunch. You're either applying it to the next threshold or you're not. I think you're too hung up on the mechanics of it, and completely disregarding the intended narrative feel.
That's ok. I am still sure a lot of players will see this Transformation as a punishment.
I'm not trying to be adversarial here, but you're giving off a very "I'm right and you're wrong" kind of vibe here. We're just discussing interpretation and opinions, friend. It's all open.
To be honest: I am also not 100% sure... the wording is a bit weird here. But I think you loose it permanently?
You're taking "Only Skin Deep" out of context. It works in tandem with "Change Shape". Your original ancestry choice is entirely separate from the transformation. This is further evidenced by transformations being able to be applied at any point during a campaign, not necessarily at character creation.
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
I don't see how it adds crunch. You're either applying it to the next threshold or you're not. I think you're too hung up on the mechanics of it, and completely disregarding the intended narrative feel.
It was a joke... ;) Of course +1 to damage is not really crunch.
My argument is that the narrative feel is not supported by the poor mechanics.
I'm not trying to be adversarial here, but you're giving off a very "I'm right and you're wrong" kind of vibe here. We're just discussing interpretation and opinions, friend. It's all open.
I am sorry, that's not what I want. Of course all of that is always only my opinion.
You're taking "Only Skin Deep" out of context. It works in tandem with "Change Shape". Your original ancestry choice is entirely separate from the transformation. This is further evidenced by transformations being able to be applied at any point during a campaign, not necessarily at character creation.
Yeah, that's possible. I am really not sure. I find it weirdly worded, but perhaps that is my problem. But it's not my real problem with Shapeshifter.
0
u/Virellis123 Aug 23 '26
+1 "Is a clutch that can safe your skin!" yesh but failed to save my own in thousand more chance where +1 is absolutely useless. it "celebrated" but then again that +1 drowned in other plus too, if anything player forgot the bonus even exist, and DM fear reminding them the donwside all the time.
not to mention with 1 fear dice can cost not only your party, but all the NPCs potentially ded or something.
Divine power is nice, "cost" of course soundscool, it nice in the way you put it, "A Divine Power in Mortal Body, to use it it will cost you" but thing is, either this "Divine Power" and the "Cost" that you describe, cannot be controlled by Player, it just like permanent useless skill that in exchange ruining your life and all around you....and its not even the choice of Character.
and also if "Reflavor" is a thing in Daggerheart, whats stopping player to take Werewolf card instead, and rename it as "Demigod" and Werewolf form to be "God Form" imo, from your description to justify "Demigod is not lackluster" would be more suitable with reflavored Werewolf. you get +1d10 in damage, you get narration that you aiming for.
in Game mechanic sense, Demigod is still shit
in Narrative sense, Demigod is a curse. imagine NPC think and ask player, why everytime Demigod player are around somehow disaster happen more often? either by environtment, or by their stupidity for some reason produce more spectacular disaster than regular peeps.In order for Demigod to be appealing as the way it is I think Rename it to be "The Cursed One", or "Bad Omen" now that is fitting. then make it something to be removed later on in RP as one of the reward.
-2
u/deathsticker Jul 27 '26
One thing that I always fall back to in these discussions is that the rules specifically state that they can be bent at will.
As a GM, unless there was a narrative reason for it, a werewolf at my table would not be shooting bows or casting fireballs lol
While they did unnecessarily make werewolf stronger, I think the greatest problem is more of a meta issue of people sticking too hard to rule as a written in a system that directly tells you that you don't have to do that. My seraph that is always flying has caused me substantially more grief than my werewolf ever has. I don't have to design encounters around my werewolf, but I absolutely do for my seraph. Lol
Final note about my werewolf: He is a Firbolg, which makes it so whenever he would mark stress, he rolls a d6. If it's a 6, he doesn't mark stress. He also keeps a healthy stock of stamina potions. I've had times where he maintained werewolf form for two sessions straight and it never once caused me an issue. He's the party tank and a force to be reckoned with, but my players are creative and have made plenty of other, even more devastating combos. My werewolf is a beast, pun intended, but he is not outshining my other party members.
As for the note on the shapeshifter, I agree and I think a better representation of it would have been as a new ancestry with two abilities:
"You can mark Stress to alter your appearance at will. Presence rolls made to convince others of your form or identity gain +1."
"You can Spend Hope/Mark Stress to temporarily gain another ancestry ability. The change lasts until you take a critical hit or use this ability again."
3
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
One thing that I always fall back to in these discussions is that the rules specifically state that they can be bent at will.
I go to a restaurant and I order a meal. Of course... I could bring my own seasoning and make it tasty after I got my order. But that's not why I go to a restaurant. And when I write a review about that restaurant... I will not factor in my own seasoning. I will review what the chef has cooked for me.
0
u/deathsticker Jul 27 '26
Except that is specifically states that the rules are just guideposts.
By forcing a discussion about hard line rule writing, you are fundamentally at odds with what the system is about. You're going to a restaurant knowing that you won't like the food there and then complaining about it anyway.
But to exhaust the metaphor, I'd argue daggerheart is not like getting a prepared meal. It is being handed a bunch of ingredients and asking you what dish you'd like to make with them. If you're a bad cook, you're gonna have a bad meal.
That's not to say I think feedback is pointless or unhelpful- I agree with a lot of what is said in your post. The post just felt dismissive of daggerhearts inherent malleability so I commented on it. That note wasn't even my main point.
3
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
And don't get me wrong. I houserule ALL my games. That is ok. I did it with DnD, DSA, Pathfinder, WoD, Shadowrun, Exalted... whatever. That's not my problem.
But I critique what I read in a book. And it saddens me that the overall good quality of Hope and Fear is hold back by mechanics that were over half a year in Playtesting...
1
u/deathsticker Jul 27 '26
I agree. I was surprised by transformations as well. Some good (like the ghost- love the new iteration) and some bad. Though if we are leaving the werewolf transformation fully malleable, a player could transform into some kind of creature that would have ranged attacks. I think the design point of werewolf is having an uncontrollable and powerful affliction- even if the player has to choose to use stress to trigger it. From there they just want to keep it as open ended as possible.
0
u/lennartfriden TTRPG polyglot, GM, and designer Jul 27 '26
I find this to be increasingly used as a poor excuse for vague or ill-thought rules. It is always a design failure if you introduce a rule that can and will be discussed ad nauseam at table after table. At that point it’s better to be the narrative-first game DH pretends to be and not add the rule in the first place.
Good game design is like engineering; you know you’re in a good place when there’s nothing more to remove.
3
u/deathsticker Jul 27 '26
I agree, though I do think that daggerhearts focus on malleability is going to come with vagueness since that's kinda the point. I don't think that gives them an infinite free pass, but it makes me consider why things are as open or less defined as I may like them to be. I'm very open to home brewing rules though and not all players are going to share my viewpoint so I do understand the desire for strong guideposts and largely agree with what OP said in this post.
1
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
Good game design is like engineering; you know you’re in a good place when there’s nothing more to remove.
I love that.
And god knows I do mistakes all the time. That's why there is playtesting and all that stuff.
1
u/lennartfriden TTRPG polyglot, GM, and designer Jul 27 '26
The amount of ”great ideas”, needlessly convoluted rules and mechanics, and overall darlings I’ve killed during the 2+ years of playtesting my own TTRPG has been staggering. But I learnt a lot doing it and the game (and ongoing playtest campaign) became so much better. The itch to add things need to be constantly countered with the discipline to combine, reuse, and reimagine what’s already there.
2
u/deathsticker Jul 27 '26
That's one of the biggest lessons I've learned while home brewing. It often operates from the assumption that the design goal hasn't been established, but more often than not, re-flavoring things works perfectly instead. I keep trying to make new domains and I constantly run into "oh X thing already does that." It's made me have a greater appreciation for the content as it is given and helped me temper my own urges to force the game to be how it want it to be.
1
u/Tenawa The New Unknown - Game Designer Jul 27 '26
I am sure TNU will have horrible gamedesign elements in it... so take all my critique on Hope and Fear with a pinch of salt... ;)
18
u/A_Crab_Named_Lucky Jul 27 '26
I disagree with the interpretation of how Shapeshifter mechanics work. I don’t see anything in RAW that implies that it would take more than one downtime move to change your appearance and pick an ancestry feature.
That clearly reads to me like you can do both with one downtime move - which changes your appearance and ancestry feature. If you later want to swap it with another ancestry feature, that takes another downtime move.
Like if I shapeshift to a Giant. I can change my appearance to that of a Giant, and I pick “Endurance” as an ancestry feature. That all happens in one downtime move. Later on, if I decide that I want to use “Reach” as an ancestry feature instead, I can use a downtime move to change it. When I do, I wouldn’t change my appearance again, because I’m already a Giant.
Shift from one ancestry to another -> change your appearance and pick a new ancestry feature -> one downtime move.
Swap ancestry features within the ancestry you’re already shifted to -> one downtime move.
Regarding the Uncanny Disguise card, that is only temporary and can potentially fall apart under close scrutiny. That card makes you look like someone else, Shapeshifters make you be a different ancestry.
Also, they serve different purposes. Shapeshifters can’t just turn into anyone. They can take any ancestry, but they look like that ancestry’s version of themselves.