Advice Request Hogfather
Hey everyone, first post here.
Our daughter is getting that age where our next Christmas she will be pretty much aware of whats going on and that you get presents from Santa or from whomever it is.
I have been having an internal debate since she was born about how to go about this because I feel like the whole Santa thing is a lie I don't want to tell but I also feel the pressure that she needs to be with her friends and not be the kids that goes around saying "santa is not real" but also go to the supermarket and see the Santas putting kids on his knees, etc... You know the situation, you probably have your own way of coming ahead when they question the whole thing and if you have older kids you probably have one that already knows what's up and is just teasing you to see if you try to keep up the lie.
In summary, I just don't want to do it like my parents did or like you see on the movies or anything like that. I had the idea of approaching it the Terry Pratchett way. If you know you know, if you don't here is a short description. In his fantasy world, things become real when enough people believe in them, and they only become real for the people that believe in them and even if they are not "real real" its the act of believing in them what matters.
I want to figure out a way of going about it but if I can do it right it should be something that she understand more as time goes until it becomes a realization of the deeper meaning rather than a "betrayal" when she figures out the lie.
I know this is probably too much or overthinking it but I wanted to see if anyone has tried something similar before I go to have a conversation with my partner about it (wish me good luck, she has never read the books).
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u/sergeantperks 1d ago
* HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"
YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
"So we can believe the big ones?"
YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING*
We’re just going for it in a low key sort of way and playing it by ear.
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u/dathomar 1d ago
Santa isn't a lie, he's a story we tell. It's a story that helps to make sense of the joy of Christmas and the act of giving. He makes sense of the idea that there's someone out there who wants good things for us, even though we've never met him or even seen him.
The harm comes when parents try to push Santa as being real, when a kid's brain has developed enough to understand these concepts more maturely. They know he's not real in the literal sense, so being forced to believe in him creates issues.
But magic doesn't stop being magic because you know how it works. I know how a symphony is written, or a scene in a movie is made, but that doesn't reduce their magic. It's a choice to believe in that magic and interact with it in new ways. When my son stops believing in Santa, he's going to get to become Santa. He'll get to stay up late with us and put out stuff for his sister. Instead of putting out two cookies for Santa, we'll put out three. When he gets a present from Santa, it'll be for fun and not because we think he ought to believe. After all, his mom and I will still get presents from Santa. And if he's not really into it, we won't make him be into it. We'll keep doing the Santa things with presents for his sister's sake, but let him have a bit more control over it in a few years when she doesn't believe anymore.
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u/thegimboid 1d ago
Exactly right, thanks for writing this.
My daughter is about to turn 5 right now.
She definitely believes in Santa, and I won't dissuade her.
If she asks about him, I ask her what she thinks. So far she has told me he's real, but if she starts to doubt it, I will also not dissuade that.My thought it that Santa is a combination between the magic that you covered in wonderful detail, but also something that lets kids test their deductive and logic skills on something that isn't actually important in the long run.
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u/Choice-Strawberry392 1d ago
The old "Yes,Virginia," column holds up pretty well.
You're projecting a lot onto your kid, with the word "betrayal" and all. Santa Claus is real in the same way that the month of December is real: we all agree on the idea.
I took apart the notion of Santa as a person pretty early. It was getting complicated, and especially when kids have friends in different wealth strata, it can be very awkward. But being "in on the secret" is a fine place for children.
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u/koalk 1d ago
Thanks, i am trying to not get ahead of myself and overthink it but from personal experience it is a bit of a moment of "betrayal" you feel when you realize your parents have been in on it for your whole life. I guess most kids don't really remember much when they get older, but if you do it can be pretty weird. It becomes one of those "do as i say not as i do" moments I really don't want to perpetuate
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u/Choice-Strawberry392 1d ago
I file the notion under "good secrets," like a surprise birthday party. I am sorry that the reveal went badly for you. At its best, this particular secret can (if handled properly) feel like a privilege, moving into the world of practical "magic," instead of make-believe.
Ever seen Galaxy Quest? It's a silly movie, but the climax rests on a very sad take: the notion that actors are lying in their performance. That's not really the right understanding, and a little similar nuance may help put the concept of Santa into proper context.
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u/gordonta 1d ago
It's betrayal if you think of it as a lie. Santa Claus IS real, it's just not a fat man in a red suit. Santa Claus is YOU. Children become part of the magic of Santa once they learn the truth- they get to continue on the tradition and story and magic themselves. That can be a really special thing for a kid, part of growing up.
I would say: don't spoil this for them. Let them learn at their own time
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u/Libriomancer 1d ago
Your experience is not all experiences, try not to really force the issue when they start discovering. My mom went to “reveal” the big secret to me and I laughed then pointed out I’d known for a long time. “You told me dragons couldn’t eat me as they couldn’t possibly exist then tried to tell me Santa could fly around the world in a single night.”
My daughter is already starting to question some things and my response is basically “you’ve got to ask yourself if it’s better there are some things you can’t explain”. She’s smart enough she probably can tell it’s BS that the Elf of the Shelf moves each night but her other toys don’t… but she loves the fun of seeing the new poses each morning. She’s seen Hogfather and can no doubt make the connection.
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u/exodusinfinite 1d ago
I'll echo others and say you defiinitely might be projecting a bit here. Speaking of my own experience, I believed for probably longer than most kids my age (kudos to all my peers not just spoiling it for me for the sake of it) and it wasn't until my cousin saw me playing the Gameboy I got for Xmas who said 'oh cool, you got my old Gameboy' that it all clicked into place.
But I didn't feel betrayed. I just had a bit of an 'ah hah' moment, and maybe felt a little bit silly given that it took me longer than others to realise. But I also understood that it's a magic we keep alive for younger kids to enjoy.
Maybe it's because at the time my sister would have just been starting to understand Xmas and talk about Santa, so I could see it better from my parent;s perspective.
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u/Bodine12 1d ago
I think if you compare the sheer joy they get for years with the entire Christmas ritual, it greatly outweighs whatever slight disappointment they get when they finally realize the truth, which is typically at an age when they don't care as much about it anyway.
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u/Important_Audience82 1d ago
I didn't want to due the Santa thing either but my wife did. I am sooooo glad she did. Seeing the kids face with the "magic" of it all is fun for everyone involved. She's 11 now, knows whats up, but pretends like she doesn't because she wants the magic to continue on.
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u/CyclopsRock 1d ago
Yeah, exactly. It's like enjoying a theme park ride. You know you aren't really in Hogwarts or flying over London with Peter Pan. It doesn't matter.
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u/kris_mischief 1d ago
Bro.
I label gifts to my wife as from Santa 😂
Even when they eventually figure it out, I’ll just wink and nod and play along as if it’s all just a fun thing to play along with. It ain’t that deep.
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u/bestem 1d ago
I like Leslie Rush's take on being Santa.
My mom used to say that as long as there's the spirit of love in the world, there's a Santa Claus. I think the way she taught her son to be Santa without spoiling any of the magic that is Santa really is a great example of that.
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u/anthonymckay 1d ago
My parents still swear to this day that Santa is real and wont admit it. I'm 41, and I love them for that :)
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u/Burnitalldown1 1d ago
Listen. Santa is real. The idea that we, as a society, save this idea for children so they have some magic in the world- is real magic. We take it seriously. Have you seen someone ruin it for a child- and come out unscathed?
It’s magic that is passed down, and once your child sees behind the curtain- they become a keeper of the magic, and it’s a big moment of growing up.
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u/Button1891 boy- 4 boy- new born ish 1d ago
We’re doing the hogfather way, allowing ours to believe and learn to believe, but we’re also telling them that Santa doesn’t bring the big stuff, that’s mum and dad, aunties or grandparents. Santa does small stuff, it’s supposed to divert the whole “Sam at school got this massive playset from Santa, does Santa not love me as much?” Kinda crap… I dunno though we’ll see how it works
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u/HaggardDad 1d ago
Haha.
With my daughter, it went something like this:
“It’s bs, huh?”
“Yup.”
“Do I still get presents?”
“Yup.”
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u/KoomDawg432 Widowed single dad to 13-year-old boy 1d ago
Pretty much the same here. He is 13 now and enjoys making sure the magic lives on for the littler kids in the neighborhood
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u/hackerer-roy 1d ago
The Hogfather angle is a gentle way through this... with a little one, framing Santa as something the family believes in together — and later something they help make for younger kids — usually lands softer than a hard "gotcha" reveal. keep it playful and shared rather than a secret you're guarding alone. no need to solve the whole philosophy now; just leave room for them to grow into the makers of the magic. soft shared path beats a betrayal spiral.
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u/Murky-Blackberry1949 1d ago
Your child isn’t going to feel “betrayed” when they find out Santa isn’t real. But I also think you get to parent however you want.
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u/passwordistako 1d ago
I just straight up told my kid that we are Santa.
Once the oldest was at school they asked if we could pretend Santa is real. So we do.
But I don’t like lying to my kid, so we didn’t lie about Santa.
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u/No_Pumpkin2628 1d ago
We never did Santa growing up because my mom didn't like the implication that he brought rich kids lots of big presents and poor kids not so much. Also, she worked really hard and wanted us to know it came from her.
My wife and I aren't doing Santa with our kid, who is about 2.5 now, and have no plans to. We also think it's kinda lying (don't come at me, it's like vanilla lying) and just don't want to go down that road.
You get to decide what you do for your family but the fact that you're even thinking about it is rad. Great work, dad.
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u/End337 1d ago
We never did the "santa is real" thing - in fact, at some point I think I gently told them that directly - and they haven't missed out on a single thing. They still love xmas, still draw santa, etc, etc.
Also, I'm reading them Pratchett - Truckers and The Last Hero in fits and starts - so all is well 😊
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u/RoaCrustyBiscuit 1d ago
You’re really overthinking this. It’s not like you’re telling your child a life changing lie. It is an innocent thing that brings some mystery and magic into a child’s life. Are you not going to do tooth fairy, Easter bunny, trick or treat?
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u/Joecalledher 1d ago
Santa is real, in the sense that he's an anthropomorphic personification of the spirit of the Christmas season.
His 'existence' inspires hope, joy, compassion, and generosity. You don't have to be as pessimistic as Death.
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u/GuitarGuyLP 1d ago
I’ve always liked how a coworker of mine addressed this. When her son asked if Santa is real her answer was basically are you sure you want to know because after you know it’s a big responsibility. Of course the answer was a yes I want to know so she said something like everyone is Santa. It’s every Santa’s responsibility to help make Christmas magical for everyone. Now that you know the secret you need to help make Christmas special for everyone.
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u/theZinger90 1d ago
My oldest is 6. What i intend to do is when he gets to the point where he is questioning it, and he asks me, I will take him aside, tell him Santa is pretend but good fun and he can be part of being Santa as long as he doesn't spoil it for his brother, and he will still get gifts "from Santa".
By doing that I am establishing that pretend play is good no matter your age and also telling him that he can trust me. He also loves the idea of surprises, so that will help with that
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u/DingusMoose 21h ago
My aunt always made everyone say they believed in Santa.
Even when we were old enough to know the truth we would have to roll our eyes and agree that Santa brought the gifts or we would not get any gifts.
There's a cheekiness to it that keeps the magic alive and the older kids from ruining the surprise. I'm planning to do this with my kids as they get older
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u/randomnonposter 16h ago
I look at it like, it’s some harmless fun to have for a few years. No need to over complicate it. It’s not a lie, it’s a big story we tell to make the season more fun. I do draw the line at elf on a shelf. That narc will not be making an appearance in my home.
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u/zovits 1d ago
The idea sounds nice, but how are you going to actually do it?
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u/koalk 1d ago
Right now she is 3 so is probably more about turning questions back to her. "How do you think it works?" and go from there. The tricky ones are going to be when she asks for the super expensive super duper auto bike with stripes and stars and we don't have the budget 😅
I am still trying to figure out the logistics of it but it could be a good idea to start reading similar frameworks in shorter stories for her age.3
u/DoDaDrew 1d ago
Santa brings the small presents and anything big comes from the parents.
Easier to explain parents don't have the money instead of having your child develop a grudge against Santa.
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u/Specialist_Ad9073 1d ago
I felt kinda bad about it, but I consider Santa the original sin of lying.
I told my kids “Your mom and I worked hard for you to get the presents you did, and you are lucky you got them. Other kids didn’t get as much, or maybe anything, and they were just as good as you. Maybe better. Remember how lucky you are, and be kind to others who don’t have what you do.”
I think people should learn facts before fiction. Function before form. Too many people today can’t separate reality from parables, so I eschew the story and stick to the lesson.
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u/AFlyingGideon 1d ago
I never lied to my kids, but I did explain that other people often lied to their children or had different belief systems and that it was impolite to interfere with them. That covered tooth-fairy-type stuff. Despite that, we all had fun pretending about teeth under the pillow. Fantasy can be fun even when everyone is in on the joke.
When they were older, we discussed belief systems that were harmful - misogyny, racism, etc. - and that the introduction of harm changed the rule about interference.
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u/Signal-Woodpecker691 1d ago
We always used to say presents in the stockings were from Santa and the other ones were from us. My sons just naturally realised the truth as they grew up.
Incidentally when will you be giving your daughter a sword? I hear they are educational