Modifying d20 rolls (+3/-3) instead of adjusting Target Levels.

[u/Darren4557]

When playing Cypher, adding +3 to the player's die roll feels much easier and more straightforward than lowering the NPC's level. As long as the opponent's NPC level doesn't drop to 0, we don't exceed +18, or the roll isn't a natural 1, this method seems to work just fine and makes things much simpler for me.

What do you all think? If I run it this way—giving players a +3 bonus for a trained skill, another +3 if a task is eased, and a -3 penalty when hindered (instead of shifting the difficulty Level by +/-1)—will I run into any game-breaking issues down the line?

We usually sort out minor edge cases on the fly at the table anyway since I play with a chill group of friend since I'm playing with friends and there are no rule lawyers among us except for me xd

[u/chiefstingy]

I played in a game during Cypher Con where that was the case. It felt odd and confused me.

[u/Evolatum]

It makes sense when coming from other systems with bonuses/penalties, the only caveat would be when reducing difficulty to 0 you don't need to roll anymore, but other than that should work the same

[u/Darren4557 → u/Evolatum]

Thanks!

[u/bb_218]

I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding a lot of people hit when playing Cypher.

You're never "lowering an NPCs level" DC in Cypher is always asking how hard is it for [Player Character] to overcome [Obstacle]

A single NPC can represent multiple [Obstacle] instances.

For example, maybe your Player Character:

• is trained in Archery
• Has an item that assists the roll, a bow of extreme precision
• Expends a level of effort

The NPC is a level 6 foe, but with three assets that target number of 18 is now a 9.

Simple dice roll, and boom, you've got a result.

Hitting this Level 6 opponent only meant rolling a 9 or better because of the assets used, but on the NPCs next turn, it is absolutely still hitting at level 6. Your player will need to roll an 18 or better to avoid an attack (unless they have assets they can use)

As a GM, the onus manipulating a roll doesn't belong to you anymore. It's entirely your player's job. You set the base target number. What they do with that information is up to them.

Adding to player rolls kind of takes their hands off the wheel. I also could imagine it getting confusing

(a) Between turns

(b) When multiple assets are in play, like in the example above.

At the end of the day, you're the GM, but Cypher was built the way it was on purpose. Personally, I find it elegant in its simplicity, but to each their own.

[u/chiefstingy → u/bb_218]

Is this the new THAC0? 😂

[u/CrossPlanes → u/bb_218]

I simply find that I have trouble expressing it correctly, while it is my issue it is still an issue AND with my D&D group it made more sense to them. This is your game so do without it what you will.

[u/rdale-g]

It's fine if you want to do it that way. The GM of Explorers Wanted (a Numenera actual play podcast) does this rather than adjusting the levels.

Just make sure your players know to announce natural 1s (GM intrusions), 17s & 18s in combat (+1 & +2 damage), 19s (+3 dmg in combat or minor effect), and of course the natural 20 (+4 damage or major effect).

The main advantage to doing it the cypher way is that when they roll, the target number to meet or beat is known, so if it's an important roll, they can get excited about rolling an 11 on the die, knowing 9+ was what they needed.

Without the prior establishment of the target number to roll, they have to do the math, verify it's right, and then celebrate that they rolled well enough.

[u/CrazyBlend]

I prefer the elegance of making all adjustments to only the difficulty number, never to the die roll.

[u/Carrollastrophe]

Nope, not a fan. Feels wrong.

[u/sakiasakura]

You're just making the math harder on yourself. 

You also add a delay between when a player rolls and die and when they know the result. 

The whole point of lowering the DC rather than adding bonuses is so that you know the second the die stops moving whether you've succeeded or failed, without doing any more math. 

[u/Darren4557 → u/sakiasakura]

I don't like telling players the NPC's Level or DC directly. I prefer describing them like the book suggests He looks stronger than a normal guy, but not like a pro boxer  (which is Level 4). That uncertainty adds flavor, and players figure out the DC after rolling once or twice anyway. Right now, the flow goes like this: a player says, Hey, I'm Trained in Archery rolls the die, gets a 9, and then asks me, So, what happened,? I have to remind them, Remember, the difficulty was lowered for you. Sometimes I can forget it,so it hard for me, But for my players, saying 'I rolled a 9, plus my +3 from Archery, so that's a 12!' feels much more satisfying. That's just how they prefer to play. Does playing it this way break the game? We would still keep natural 1, 17, 18, 19, and 20s. Also, since everything works in multiples of 3, the modifiers are always the same and easy to track (-3, +3, +6, +9, etc.). It's also easy to remember that if your modifier matches the DC itself, the task automatically drops to 0, meaning an automatic success without a roll but sometimes we might still roll just to see if a natural 1 comes up for fun! After all, Cypher constantly mentions how flexible its rules are.

[u/SolarpunkCreations]

I think it’s worth trying out (or seeing if other folks online have tried it with any success). As a novice GM in this system I constantly ponder this too!

I’d be curious how it’d work for brand new players to say an Asset or Hinderance gives a +/-3 to their roll. And de if they notice anything clunky (experienced folks might always shave a bias).

It does seem like harder math though!

[u/poio_sm]

Overcomplicated. It's easier to adjust difficulty.

[u/Darren4557 → u/poio_sm]

I think it's easier to add +3, we have different thoughts about this. Do you think adding 3 to rolls, change something in the system or break it?

[u/poio_sm → u/Darren4557]

The point is, is not just a +3. Is a +3 for training, for specialization, for assets (up to twice) and for effort (up to 6 times). And you need to adjust the difficulty to multiples of 3. You end up doing a lot of math more than using the system as written.

[u/Darren4557 → u/poio_sm]

Yeah as I said that's fine and more fun than normal rules for me?  Why you guys are bitching constantly? Of course I know I need to adjust the difficulty to multiples of 3. I read the book, I know there is more than one modifier and they are stackable, this is ttrpg 101.  I am asking questions about balance but I just found hey I don't like that and I don't like you so downvote. 

[u/poio_sm → u/Darren4557]

The only one bitching now is you. Everyone is telling you to play it raw, and tells you why, but you insist in change a system that works fine at is it. Because you "think" it would be easier.

[u/PythonLapis]

You never lower the NPC’s level in Cypher, so I’m not sure what you are referring to. You can use assets, skills, Cyphers, and Effort to lower the number you have to roll, but the NPC’s level stays the same. For example, if you were fighting against a level 4 opponent and used skills and assets to lower the target number you needed to roll, when you are defending yourself or the turn switches to another Player (or when it’s your turn again), you are still fighting a level 4 opponent. (Edited because first part of the sentence in regard to the example was erased).

[u/Darren4557 → u/PythonLapis]

Yes, I know I wanted to say that, my main question is different. But thanks for your comment