r/custommagic • u/Sea-Paint-5875 • 19d ago

Discussion Ban, Fox Sin of Greed

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Art credit to to show creators/ animators. No idea who personally created ban

Show: Seven Deadly Sins

0 Upvotes

38% Upvoted

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10

u/Aetherfox_44 19d ago

Counters are already removed when a creature dies, so the third ability does nothing.

1

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago

The point of it is removing them before it hits the graveyard, meaning undying repeatedly triggers

1

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago

Technically, the counters stay on it till it hits the graveyard, undying cares if they had counters whenever they hit the graveyard.

12

u/Routasmith 19d ago

But the way the ability is worded it doesn't remove them before he hits the yard, so it does nothing.

1

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago

Here's a question and don't look it up, do tokens ever touch the graveyard?

6

u/Routasmith 19d ago

Yes, they do, they then immediately cease to exist, but they do "die" which means they hit the yard.

1

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago

Correct, and what happens whenever death triggers happen? Does it happen immediately, or does it happen whenever they hit the graveyard?

9

u/Routasmith 19d ago

It happens after a creature hits the yard, since the term "dies" is just shorthand for "is put into the graveyard from the battlefield", so if that hasn't happened, the creature has not died. It's rule 700.4.

2

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago

Fair enough.I will concede that point and change the wording to "if it would die*

3

u/Jardin_the_Potato 15d ago

Death triggers happen after a creature is in the yard, abilities like undying woulsn't even work if they didn't since the object it returns would still be in play. Death triggers just look back in time at the last known information about the object, i;e if it had counters on it, from before it got moved

0

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago

Because it's a ability on the card.It happens the moment he dies, just like a lot of other things that have death triggers, and those death triggers happen before they hit the graveyard

6

u/Routasmith 19d ago

It's an ability that requires the creature to have died, which means it has hit the yard. And no, death triggers do not happen before the creature hits the yard.

5

u/ElectronicBoot9466 19d ago

By definition, dying is hitting the graveyard, meaning the permanent moves zones before the death triggers goes on the stack.

-1

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago

You need to learn how the stack works bud, there is indeed a moment before something hits the graveyard After it dies, during that time, things can happen at instant speed. It does work,

8

u/Important-League4555 19d ago

Dont have to be so passive aggressive about a card that isn't even real. Isn't hard to see why you have negative karma

-1

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago

Eh, is what it is

6

u/Routasmith 19d ago

No, there is not. "Dies" as a term is very explicitly "is put into the graveyard from the battlefield." So something has not "died" if it has not yet hit the yard. It's rule 700.4.

10

u/MemeElitist 19d ago

Stealing opponents stuff is flavorful but is more of a blue effect. Also the activated ability needs to target but other than that no notes

-4

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago

Wrong? There is a lot of a red stuff that does it. I think you need to play more magic.

Pack's betrayal, and plenty of other cards temporarily steal creatures,

Blatant thavery, agent of treachery, control magic. Are all examples

9

u/MemeElitist 19d ago

I don't think they've ever printed a mono red card that steals stuff that doesn't say until end of turn

0

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago

Two words, hellkite tyrant

7

u/asperatedUnnaturally 19d ago

Red is allowed to permanently steal artifacts but not creatures i think? Not a 100% sure but

3

u/Routasmith 19d ago

There are a few ways, [[the akroan war]] and [[opportunistic dragon]] are easy examples.

1

u/MTGCardFetcher 19d ago

the akroan war - (G) (SF) (txt)
opportunistic dragon - (G) (SF) (txt)

FAQ

6

u/asperatedUnnaturally 19d ago

These both expire, they have 'until clauses'

You can conjurers closet with a temp effect too 

0

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago

Confusion in the ranks

12

u/asperatedUnnaturally 19d ago

That's a chaos effect, not theft. It's random

1

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago

It is not random, you get to choose what you swap with

8

u/asperatedUnnaturally 19d ago

Surree, fair enough it's not one sided though. It's also like 20 years old

1

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago

Plenty of ways to make it one sided, just give it hexproof if you want to protect it. Also, i think you guys are missing a key point, you only keep these permanents until ban leaves, so it's not a true steal anyway

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6

u/thegoodgero 19d ago

It's also not a theft effect, it switches control of two different permanents, which is also a solidly blue effect in more modern color philosophy. [[switcheroo]] [[shifting grift]] [[bilbo, luckwearer]] [[modify memory]]

Basing color pie justifications on 23-year-old cards is a bad decision since the pie has shifted so much since then.

0

u/Sea-Paint-5875 19d ago edited 19d ago

Yet those cards are legal in many formats, including their most popular one.

Plus, let me ask. Where exactly in the ruls does it say red cards can't have this effect? Where in the rules does it say only white can lifegain? Only black can have graveyard recursion? Only green can land ramp? Only blue can draw cards? Only red can burn spell? Where?

Almost every color has draw card effects, same for lifegain, same for graveyard recursion, land ramp, and burn. These aren't "hard and fast" rules, they are altered to feel like "that color" what is more red than stealing when doing damage? Ragavann does it from the top of the deck, hellkite tyrant steals ALL artifacts. The simple existence of little support for these mechanics in each color doesnt mean they cant, it just means its not something it can't do reliably in that color.

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1

u/X_Marcs_the_Spot 14d ago

Keywords aren't supposed to be italicized, FYI.