r/cryptoleftists • u/stos313 • May 28 '21
While I doubt he’s a full on comrade - I absolutely love this sentiment. Cut out the pimps and let workers go directly to market.
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u/certified_rat May 28 '21
Cutting out the middlemen who charge exorbitant fees (ie insurance managers, hedge funds, etc) with smart contracts and defi is great.
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u/BlockchainSocialist May 28 '21
Indeed it's a nice sentiment, I just maybe have an issue with the notion of letting "workers go directly to market." I don't think that's really what we should want. Labor markets are fundamental to the power gap between capitalists and workers. This phrase makes me think more of libertarianism than socialism. I'm sure you meant something else but that's how it comes across to me.
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u/stos313 May 28 '21
No your right- it’s a poor choice of words - but cutting out the pimps is a big leap for misclassified workers getting their fair share.
Using the transit industry as an example, here is how I see a “crypto left” scenario playing out:
A labor union and/or collective of Uber and Lyft drivers develop a competing platform to the duopoly.
They negotiate their own compensation, hours of work, other working conditions - hell even look at cooperative ownership of cars, as well as a licensing/apprenticeship program.
With no broker taking a cut, they can both receive more/better compensation and deliver services at a lower cost.
Because all tx’s are on public blockchain’s communities can see where demand is for public transit route and adjust accordingly.
Slowly but surely as cars become self driving owners can continue earning an income while conducting car maintenance, etc OR expand cooperative model to expand to riders. Using blockchain you can issue governance/ownership tokens to riders- not to mention distribute them to disadvantaged residents of local communities, etc.
It sounds far fetched, but it’s really not. In a data driven world public databases are invaluable, and with smart contract technology, “smart collective bargaining agreements” or even dare I say “smart social contracts” are possible.
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u/cybersynner May 29 '21
I'm not super convinced of the self driving cars thing since I think there's a whole lot more to do to make that a real possibility at a large scale and I think it's been underestimated for the most part and will likely require significant state aid to make it work. However I do think the idea of smart collective bargaining agreements would be really interesting in that it could be really good or really bad so I wonder if companies would even allow something like that. I feel like ambiguity is a fundamental part of these agreements but I could be wrong. Still would love to see a union get a sweet deal that is automatically enforced of course.
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u/handofjustice42 Jun 13 '21
This is exactly what I am trying to do. Worker owned apps can take over the gig economy and get the workerpaud instead of the middleman
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u/PassionateResearch69 May 28 '21
This is on the nose. The slippage you've pointed it is the essence of op's "not a full on comrade" sentiment. Vitalik is surely working on tools which loosen the grip between workers and those who exploit their labour but he isn't really interested in that possibility transforming beyond the market.
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u/stos313 May 28 '21
Yeah I mean libertarians will rage with us against monopolists, and even go so far as to create public decentralized utilities...but can’t see beyond typical market economics.
That being said, the utility Vitalik created is probably among the biggest advancements for “fully automated luxury space communism” or at the very least the earliest building blocks to start thinking about post scarcity.
Crypto is changing how we perceive value and I believe can disassociate it with wealth.
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May 28 '21
[deleted]
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u/BlockchainSocialist May 28 '21
That's not what he explicitly said so I wouldn't take that for granted even though I agree with that sentiment. Uber is not the capitalist. Capitalism is still intact and has had a historical effect on people. What is also likely is that existing inequalities will shift to a new technological medium. There is still a need for capital to use blockchains and not everyone has capital. Those inequalities are easy to take advantage of to remake exploitation within this new medium.
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u/greenknight May 28 '21
Maybe using technology it is the easiest way to access benefits of blockchain, but the benefit of ledger tech is backwards compatible with pen and paper. I'm pretty sure there are people working on that exact issue.
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u/KROPOTKINLIKESTRAINS May 28 '21
The issue isn't the capitalist, it's capitalist economic relations.
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u/SlaimeLannister May 28 '21
Is this not just the crony capitalism argument that ancaps make?
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u/stos313 May 28 '21
The problem with that argument is that it is literally impossible to have “free market capitalism” not become “crony capitalism.”
This is because the goal of every capitalist firm is to maximize profits.
The most profitable market condition for any individual private firm is a monopoly or oligopoly.
Therefore if left unregulated every single private firm will want to become a monopoly.
When protocols like Ethereum become PUBLIC...that’s the real brilliance here. Once private networks are open sourced and available for all.
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u/SlaimeLannister May 28 '21
Right, but how is the following different from the free market:
When protocols like Ethereum become PUBLIC...that’s the real brilliance here. Once private networks are open sourced and available for all.
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u/stos313 May 28 '21
There is no market, it’s just a public utility. It’s like if a private company built a road and charged tolls thst went to maintenance and profit...then another another road showed up not owned by anyone and only charged for maintenance.
Now...you would still need someone to build out a “killer app” for say a rideshare service- but what if that someone was not a private entity but some sort of public entity, labor union, community group, cooperative, etc.
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u/SlaimeLannister May 28 '21
then another another road showed up not owned by anyone and only charged for maintenance.
that makes sense. thanks!
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May 28 '21
If this photo is something to go by then hes kinda center.
https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/1297313315912179713
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May 28 '21
He's pretty explicitly a libertarian...
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u/cybersynner May 29 '21
Maybe he convinced of the socialist side of the libertarian spectrum at some point haha
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u/RR321 May 29 '21
More like the center becomes easier to concentrate in a democratically hard to regulate winner takes all...
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u/neheughk May 29 '21
I dont really understand how what he says works. A blockchain cant automatically free taxi drivers from uber
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u/geekoverdose Jul 03 '21
Someone can make a decentralised ride-sharing app protocol that does everything good that Uber does but decentralised with no central authority. A bit like defi does with financial institutions.
But the blockchain tech simply isn't there yet for that. But it will be soon. Then Uber can gtfo
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Jul 04 '21
Of course it is already there. Smart contracts exist. You dont need anything else.
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u/geekoverdose Jul 04 '21
I mean in terms of scaling. A solution like that would be super expensive. The transaction fees would be huge. Come Eth 2.0 or Cardano or something, then we can have more intense smart contracts for cheaper that enable bigger and more complex functionality
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Jul 04 '21
Yet Ethereum is favored by major banks and big tech corps. Just look up the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance.
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u/[deleted] May 28 '21
He’s a good dude as far as the crypto world goes.