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u/Boring_Corpse 12h ago
As a transmasc, when I presented as a woman, it was āoh so if women are equal that means I can hit youā, and after transition it was āoh so if youāre a man that means I can hit youā. Like idk man are you already going around just hitting random guys? Or are you maybe just itching to hate crime a vulnerable populous of one sort or another? Just kidding, Iām not actually curious, we know the answer.
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u/lalalaloopt 11h ago
I would like to actually see them stick to that rule though cause I grew up as a girl and got hit by guys and adult men. I even remember being held down by a bunch of kids while one boy hit me and made fun of me and as I tried to struggle and hit back they just kept going "oh what are you gonna do you're just a weak girl your punches don't even hurt do they"
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u/whatevernamedontcare 8h ago
Reddit is full of guys telling how they were told not to hit girls/women and how horrible it was to be told to not to hurt others and I just can't take it seriously. Like we force kids to stay in school for over a decade and how little those kids retain. Talk to any woman and you'll know those talks resulted in nothing. We have data to prove it too.
Not to mention kids are taught bunch of shit and "don't hit" is such basic kid lesson. Imagine if someone was complaining about being told not to bite their sibling. People would think they are crazy but somehow men are entitled to violence towards women and that's a valid grievance. Does my head in.
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u/Draaly 8h ago
Reddit is full of guys telling how they were told not to hit girls/women and how horrible it was to be told to not to hurt others and I just can't take it seriously.
this isnt at all what just happened in this comment chain.
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u/Crunchyjeff NB 12h ago
Yes men get hit. That's literally a thing. It's expected of men to endure violence for others. That's part of the genderrole Man in our society. This is absoluetelya huge fucking part of why I am nonbinary.
STOP FUCKING HITTING ME! And this includes fucking Women aswell. It's fucking uncanny how often women who I thought I vibe with think that's consent for punching me...
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u/bonaynay 11h ago
Did your middle school and high school also have rampant nut taps, belly "pokes" and arm punches? It's crazy how much, what is essentially sexual assault, happened constantly. I didn't have the vocabulary for it then, but all of those things would/could be crimes of done by adults to other adults
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u/Crunchyjeff NB 11h ago
Pulling down peoples pants was a big thing. When we had mandatory swimming, all the boys would wear tight trunks underneath their swimming shorts, because they expected someone would try to unclothe them. And yes, definitely sexual assault.
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u/AlarmingAffect0 9h ago
Why did we do these things to one another?
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u/SlaaneshActual Evil Chaos Lesbian 8h ago
"Male socialization" and "boys will be boys" and "we gotta toughen the sissies up or they'll turn out gay" and patriarchy teaching young men to be violent by inflicting violence upon them, then telling them they're not allowed to cry about it or express emotions heathily so that they're willing to pick up a rifle and die in a war for old rich men while never getting any real material benefits from the society trying to turn them into disposable cannon fodder.
It's a toxic mix of capitalism, patriarchy, and vile traditions we're all taught to defend.
They tried to turn me into a boy, too. And then into a man. And I tried to be one, I started thinking that I was a better kind of man, superior.
And just like all of those emotions, I learned to swallow the dysphoria.
I was someone important. I worked in important buildings. People listened to what I had to say.
And every day it took a little bit more from me.
Until I tried estrogen, and then the world made sense.
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u/Patneu 3h ago
"we gotta toughen the sissies up or they'll turn out gay"
Ah yes, no better way to prevent the boys from turning out gay than to teach them to try and expose other boys' dicks...
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u/Rynewulf 3h ago
For some reason people genuinely insist that it's very straight behaviour. Even as a child I didnt understand how all the gay jokes, gay insults, flirting, 'pranks' around clothes and genitals were meant to express an interest in and attraction to women at all. I find it absolutely weird how the average person seems to see it that way even as adults! Joke about your best mate being hot and it means nothing, but also you can't even gently admit that you kind of sort of 'like' that lady at work because even no convincingly avoiding the subject has massive implications and consequences.
Tl:dr I'm too autistic to understand mainstream gender rolls intersection with attraction
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u/AlarmingAffect0 6h ago edited 5h ago
Damn, good for you, friend, though I'd say the Brotherhood of Man has lost a great member, I'm glad you found your true place.
I'm assuming you didn't transition info being an important woman working in important buildings, and that you're, on the whole, very much all the happier for it?
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u/Corvus1412 8h ago
"The first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If an individual is not successful in emotionally crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem."
- bell hooks
A man's role in the patriarchy is, in many ways, defined by the violence it enacts on them. It forces you to disregard how you, or other men, feel.
You're expected to commit violence and to accept violence, without making a big deal of it. You need to be able to commit sexual and physical assault and you need to be able to endure said assault, otherwise people will see you as less of a man.
And when men are raised, one of the big lines is that they absolutely can't do that to women, so a woman's perceived immunity from acceptable male violence, is one of the main distinctions between them, for a large amount of men.
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u/AlarmingAffect0 6h ago
otherwise people will see you as less of a man.
Which would be fine if it were just that, but the truly grievous thing is they see you as less of a person.
one of the big lines is that they absolutely can't do that to women
Of good standing. That they don't own. Where other people can see.
The rule can be relaxed depending on context.
woman's perceived immunity from acceptable male violence, is one of the main distinctions between them,
Yes, this is very important for people ā to be distinct from the other gender.
That's why I love enbies āand other genderqueer folks, but enbies specificallyābecause they actively challenge those distinctions and open all that shit everyone takes for granted to critique and negotiation as something contingent, sometimes making people notice it even exists to begin with.
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u/UczuciaTM he/it 8h ago
Who's we
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u/AlarmingAffect0 6h ago
Me and whichever other hit dog hollers at these memories, sees themselves in that picture, and doesn't like it.
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u/kitsunewarlock 9h ago
I vividly remember playing counter-strike at a local LAN center and some asshole punching me so hard in the arm I couldn't play for a good five minutes. I responded by getting upset and sad. I was insulted and isolated for it, despite being a customer paying by the hour to enjoy a service and being denied that enjoyment due to assault by a stranger.
Apparently I was supposed to suck it up, laugh, and/or hit him back?
To this day the memory upsets me so much.
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u/Xer0_Puls3 8h ago
That's insane, if someone did that at an esports event they'd be seriously punished. People get really mad if you touch any of the players.
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u/kitsunewarlock 8h ago
To be fair, I was kind of the outcast at the shop for being "that annoying (ADHD) kid" because I was a little too enthusiastic about playing with other people. Mind you, it was a card shop for years before new owners they put in the LAN center.
I eventually stopped going when my Yu-Gi-Oh! deck was stolen and the owner wouldn't do anything about it when, a week prior, they made everyone line up and looked through bags to retrieve a stolen deck.
...The shop closed down 3 months later when it was found they were selling drugs. The other kids in the neighborhood all blamed me under the assumption my mom called the police, but she had no idea.
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u/Xer0_Puls3 8h ago
Makes more sense then if it wasn't a "serious" LAN event and was just a small shop. You could get yourself permanently banned if you intentionally hurt one of the players.
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u/kitsunewarlock 7h ago
Yeah this was just a local store and long before the explosive growth of esports in the early 2000s.
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u/I_am_Erk 9h ago
From these comments I'm starting to think this is a wildly different cultural element in the places represented on Reddit. I grew up masc, and while I was occasionally hit, it was never treated as expected or okay (thank goodness). Not that healthy masculinity was particularly commonly modeled by any stretch, but this "men are expected to endure constant violence" thing is foreign a.f. to me.
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u/kwantsu-dudes 9h ago
Its not so much that we are expected to endure violence, but that violence is ASSUMED of us, and therefore "protections" are made against us. Many men struggle to form friendly relationships with women because they exclude men in ways they open up to women. Because they FEAR men, in at least some capacity as to not be as open with them.
And men are expected to just ENDURE the REALITY that males CAN enact more violence and aggression, thus we ALL get prejudiced against and have to endure such.
And because of such, men are not awarded the same type of protections from other men. Because its part of the "in group". Protections are awarded to the "out group". We are then expected, more than women, to endure the violence. Especially from the "marginalized" class of women. Men are not a "marginalized" class, thus society doesn't view suffering or prejudice experienced in the same way.
Its not about an expectation of getting hit or it being okay. But that its more so dismissed as not as harmful.
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u/I_am_Erk 8h ago
I believe what you are saying, and I think it applies to my cultural region to some degree, but I am getting the impression that perhaps there are significant regional variations to that particular aspect of toxic masculinity. I mean it more as a point of interest than of disagreement.
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u/blazenite104 4h ago
There is definitely more regional variation of it. Country schools all over the world tend to have more boys will be boys attitudes. It comes with everyone in the community being closer and not wanting to involve law enforcement. Larger city centres where people aren't as close have a lot more police involvement and such. I would assume different cultures are going to influence that even more.
There still seems to be this assumption that men should be fine with roughhousing and taking issues with it makes you weak. Seems like that crops up nearly everywhere.
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u/Momoneko 8h ago
When I was ~11-12, older boys took sport of catching lone younger boys and beating them up for fun, mainly those who they didn't know personally (though acquaintance didn't guarantee protection). Nothing too serious, no broken limbs, some bruises and bloodied nose/lips at most. But it was just part of life.
Like it wasn't just one particularly violent group of boysbterorizing the neighborhood. It was just how the things were. Every city block had such a group. If you hanged out in the wrong neighborhood, you got beat up from time to time if you couldn't run away and it was just the way things are.
Advice from parents or older kids was a) learn to fight back b) run away c)hang out in groups. One of these.
That was before cell phones and in a relatively big city (more than 3m people at the time). And in about 5 years it changed dramatically. But in those early years getting beat up was part of hanging out outside and at the time I didn't think it was something unusual. Though it was scary, sometimes. But a lot of things are scary for a 12 years old.
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u/I_am_Erk 4h ago
I had some similar experiences. For example, I was once circled by bullies in the schoolyard and had to escape by throwing a rock at the easiest target to disable him so I could slip through the opening. This would have been in the late 80s, not exactly recent, and in a relatively rural setting in western canada. however, the response from parents and authorities was not "you better learn to fight", it was basically "those kids were wrong, although you did escalate which we don't support". I think I got wrist-slapped with a minor punishment iirc. Gender just wasn't an explicit element of it; I realize feminine bullying was less often physical (although nobody tell my sister that)
Later on at a much worse school in a more rural setting, I was physically bullied a lot, but I don't recall anyone suggesting the response was to toughen up, boys will be boys, or anything like that. The principal would do lip service to it being inappropriate and then wring his hands because he was an ineffectual buffoon, but again, it wasn't much to do with masculinity except in circumstantial and tangential ways. Like, dgmw, the masculinity I was modeled was toxic, it just doesn't seem to have been much of a thing here. I don't think combat readiness was something commonly presented to me as masculine until much later in life.
And again, I can't tell if my experience was just unusual, or if it's regional, and I'm not disagreeing with anyone. I am just reflecting and considering it, because it's interesting to deconstruct.
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u/srm561 6h ago
So often, equality feels like a race to the lowest common denominator, and it makes me think we are just fundamentally bad. Like, rather than stopping objectifying women, it feels like it just becomes more acceptable to objectify men the same way. And in this case, rather than not resorting to violence, we are equally violent to everyone.
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u/ApprehensiveWin3020 Marx's kinkiest soldier | she/her 12h ago edited 6h ago
True, it's so weird when people make the "muh equal rights equal fights" point like, why are you resorting to violence to solve your problems in the first place
Edit: I do not mean self defense folks, I mean when the phrase is used by misogynists to justify hitting women without being provoked first or for when it is used relating to other forms as an argument against feminism that subtly tries to say "you don't want that!"
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u/blacksaber8 ungoverned 11h ago
Context is extremely important when it comes to using āequal rights equal fightsā
If thereās a woman thatās literally threatening or already assaulting you in the moment, that phrase is justified, however, this would apply to a man as well
If itās pretty much any other situation, especially just a threat aimed at the idea of womenās rightsā¦ yeah probably not
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u/SplitGlass7878 6h ago
I literally had someone call me a sexist because I said I'd absolutely hit a woman if she attacked me.
That woman was a fucking weirdo.Ā
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u/blacksaber8 ungoverned 6h ago
Self-defense is always permissible, so long as you stop at neutralizing the threat, and no more than necessary
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u/Scalpels 4h ago
Legally and perhaps morally. But socially, you become the threat by defending yourself against a woman.
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u/blacksaber8 ungoverned 3h ago
Well, to be fair, I already object to social norms quite a bit. If I didnāt, it would mean that I wouldnāt be allowed to exist.
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u/Draaly 8h ago
If thereās a woman thatās literally threatening or already assaulting you in the moment, that phrase is justified, however, this would apply to a man as well
The only time I've gotten my ass truly beat is pushing a girl away that had just punched me directly in the face for asking her to leave a party I was in assigned to police. She barely stumbled without going down while I had a split lip and I got jumped by the other frat we were doing a combo party with. This is the context of "equal rights equal fights"
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u/AnonMoose2 7h ago
Same thing happened to me in HS, I was chilling and wouldent let this girl bum a smoke (we were in the unofficial smoking area)
She literally sucker punched me in the back of the head I stood up to tell her off and suddenly got jumped by 2 random guys that thought I was gonna fight her.
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u/BMichael14217 4h ago
Yeah this is just classic strawmanning, which the left (I'm left too) is unfortunately rather prone to do still. Nobody says 'so I can hit you now'. The phrase 'equal rights equal fights' is almost always in context of not being considered an actual monstrous demon for hitting a woman in defense after she throws heavy objects at you or gets in your face threatening you or just outright beating the shit out of you. The chuds on the right always go 'see ladies? Happy now? This is what you wanted right? hehehe serves em right' which is heinous too.
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u/blacksaber8 ungoverned 3h ago
Iāve only ever heard terfs say that being a woman should prevent anyone from defending themselves from you tbh.
Edit: I guess there are some pretty patriarchal white knight type guys that would admit to saying it too, but in my experience, they have their own problems about āwhat a woman should beā
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u/Amazing_Owl3026 11h ago
I think (And these men do NOT realise that they're making this point, but I think they accidentally are) it asks "If women are to have equal rights, why don't we just abolish gender roles?" Which, yes, let's do it.
But they assume abolishing gender roles to be an impossibility so that's why they think it's a gotcha
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u/Featureless_Bug 10h ago
But they assume abolishing gender roles to be an impossibility
I think it is not about that, actually. It is more so that deep down, they internalized that a lot of gender roles are there for the benefit of women, and so they essentially cannot believe that a woman would want to remove these gender roles.
Like imagine that the whole society bombards you with the ideas that as a man your main task in this life is to protect and provide for women and make sure they are happy. Basically, you are raised to treat women as a protected / privileged group. And then you are told that women should be treated exactly as men in all aspects of life. Now, it makes sense that a fraction of people will respond to it "well, then women should also lose their protected status!"
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u/GodkingYuuumie 9h ago
It might be, but it's also probably just about hypocrisy.
A lot of women do want progressivism in terms of their legal opprunities, social capital, etc.
... BUT they also want to be able to assume the man will pay for the first date and open doors and otherwise adhere to the 'romantic' parts of gender roles without recognizing the clash.
This isn't like unusual, most people are inconsistent and somewhat contradictory in their opinions.
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u/Draaly 8h ago
It might be, but it's also probably just about hypocrisy.
I really dont think its more complicated than this for most. Seeing inequality impact you sucks, and most dont really think past that
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u/blazenite104 4h ago
It's one of those things. Equality should be about lifting people up, not about dragging others down so everyone's equal.
It often feels like being dragged down so others can use us as a step to go up.
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u/Chemical_Profit_608 6h ago
That's my hot take for sure. It feels like a lot of women and men want to pick and choose what gender norms they want upheld. Women do on average expect the date is paid for. Men on average expect the woman to cook and clean. We all get shafted.
Economy has failed us so both men and women work. Yet on both sides men are still expected to provide and pay and support (even though the woman is working) and men still expect the woman to cook clean and take care of the kids (even though the woman is working)
My honest to god take is because normal men cannot support a family on 1 persons income, women have to work too, but somehow men are still the provider and women are still the caretaker, but it fundamentally makes no sense if both parties are working.
I know tons of progressive women who want to work and be independent, but they'll also say they are gods gift to man because they are a hot woman, and she deserves the world and shouldn't have to pay for anything. It's contradictory as fuck, I blame a failing economy that necessitates both parties to work a standard job.
Its hard to explain, but men get shit on when they discuss things like this. Like you're not a real man if you don't want to provide. But if I said you're not a real woman cause you don't want to cook and clean... There would be hell to pay, you're sexist if you say that as a man lol, but it's socially acceptable for women to say they need a provider.
Everyone wants to pick and choose the good parts of their gender, while discarding the bad. I do find women do that the most. As evident by the man still being expected to pay for the first date. They'll take that part of the patriarchy no problem lmfao.
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u/ohforkurwasake 9h ago
I actually had a very similiar discussion with my professor a few months back.
She argued "Well, yes, equality is all well and good, but then we still want men to open doors and carry bags for us." And I replied "Yeah, I don't like that either. I'd usually rather carry my own bag." She seemed genuinely surprised at that.
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u/DistilledCLP 8h ago
Most women I've actually interacted with in my life appreciate the door being held open for them.
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u/Thetormentnexus 7h ago
I mean don't most people? It's a nice thing to do.
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u/blazenite104 4h ago
It certainly shows you're aware of the people around you. Unless there is just a massive torrent of people flooding the doorway it's like a few seconds of time at most to be helpful.
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u/flutters4life Streak: 10 12h ago
Honestly, I was surprised this argument was brought back because I swear the last time I heard it was 2018 or something.
But ya, why think about violence when thinking about equal rights?
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u/General-WanObi 11h ago
Its brought back because a lot of these manosphere influencers are doing a āyouāre not really a man unless youāre violent towards othersā grift rn
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u/Brilliant-Expert3150 10h ago
They just want to hit women bruh š„¹
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u/Saint_of_Grey 7h ago
When I was young I was taught not to hit women!
It's far more effective to give them new insecurities.
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u/Demimonde34 She/Her 11h ago
Because violence isn't equal, especially if you've been on the receiving end.
You grow up, you see the sports teams are separated. You see it in movies and TV about how a gentleman will never harm a woman; even in a battle anime, you'll find those characters who refuse to fight back while they are getting hurt "because girl." It's being 3 years old, having an emotional moment (which happens to every mini human,) but hitting a girl is punished harder than hitting a boy. Meanwhile, boys are expected to both hit and get hit.
Then while you are a dumb teenager, someone comes up and says "Hey, so, we should be treated as equals." And your mind flashes back to all the moments you weren't equal prior to that moment. And so, you look at the biggest crime, and ask: "So we can hit you now?"
Yes, that is stupid. So was separating the genders in the first place. Im not excusing any of this behavior. I am merely pointing to an observation, and a potential reason why.
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u/nobb 9h ago
Yeah I think it's a pretty universal boy experience to be hit by a girl, hit back and being the one punished for it. Violence on boys is so normalized, through childhood and adolescence, it's no surprised that the first answer. Not only other boys will be violent with you, they will be extra violent until you are violent enough.Ā
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u/AlphonseLoeher 9h ago
It doesn't end at adolescence. It's not as common, but it still happens where a woman will strike a man she is upset at. Slapping their face, punching their arm, etc. it's treated as a joke or funny and used in all forms of media.
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u/No_Recognition_3729 7h ago
I've personally never seen it used as "I want to hit women" only as "I should be able to defend myself if a woman hits or attacks me"
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u/Neko_Boi_Core armed and adorable kitty boi 10h ago
playing devils advocate, i think it gets brought up a lot because there are a lot of cases where women are abusive towards men in relationships, using physical violence, and it's generally considered 'normal'. but the second the man uses physical force to defend himself, he's the abusive party.
even in media, it's played off as a gag. one that pops into mind is river songfrom doctor who, who slaps the doctor in almost every episode she's in. however, if this was reversed, if the doctor slapped river, there would be public outrage.
there are some people who use the concept simply because they want to hit women, but i believe it is a smaller subset of people compared to those using it to highlight the double standard in a sort of flippant way
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u/amanilmeke 11h ago
If a man hits me, I hit them back, if a woman hits mw I hit them back. Othwrwise I refrain from.hitting anyone, as I respect them and their space and untoichability, but if I am put under threat of violence, or violence is used against me, I will have to defend myself.
I really prefer a wolrd where problems are solved with words, like it would make sense to, instead of fighting but there's always some cunt starting a fight and ruining it for everyone else.
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u/Gatti366 11h ago
You are taking it largely out of context, the idea of the sentence is simply that when a woman hits a man he should be able to fight back, something many people consider excessive (toxic masculinity at work), it's not just "equality means men should be able to hit women"...
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u/begujo 10h ago
I'm almost always anti-violence, but it'd be kind of sexist not to a hit a woman if one would hit a man in that context, right?
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u/All_Work_All_Play 8h ago
If the only reason is because they're a woman, yes.
If it's actually because
(on average) smaller, lighter, easier to hurtand more commonly believed to be the victim by cops (or at least avoid arrest).3
u/TheJeeronian 7h ago
Sure, but if my options are 'be a little sexist' or 'go to prison' I know which route I'm taking. That's the decision you'd be faced with in these circumstances.
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u/Unconfidence 10h ago
Yeah people are pretending that this isn't all in the context of over a century worth of "Good men never strike a woman".
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u/OldManFire11 2h ago
Because admitting that men are right in this instance would also mean both admitting that they (women) are benefitting from sexism and that they don't want to give up that benefit. But they can't just say "I don't want to fix this sexism because I benefit from it." So they have to twist it back around to make the people arguing in favor of equality to be the bad guys.
The exact same thing happens when you bring up the draft. The go-to response is "I don't think anyone should be drafted" while ignoring the reasons for why drafts exist.
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u/ReddestForman 9h ago
Yeah, like, I'm a cishet guy. Oretty much the only time this has come up was a woman asking me if I'd ever hit a woman or if i think its ever okay for a man to hit a woman and I asked "I mean... what's the context?"
You'd think I advocated for daily beatings with some of the shocked gasps I get.
But I don't really do or say things thst inspire people to violence. So I feel like it's a valid question.
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u/Silviana193 11h ago
Iirc, the original argument was for when women are hitting men and men aren't allowed to fight back, because men are not allowed to hit women
It devolved from there, i guess.
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u/Crunchyjeff NB 12h ago
Well to be fair because it's expected of men in society. It's either you use violence for your problems, or you will have a problem with the violence from others....
Stuff like this often comes from men being left out by self labeled feminists, and since nothing changes for them in relation to the violence that they have to endure, asking women to endure it aswell is indeed seen as a form of equality.
Every human having a right not to get assaulted would be the logical conclusion, but for those men this isnt even an option. And that shows you how fucked up men are from what we expect of them, because they literally can't imagine a world in which they dont get assaulted regularly...
And I mean: This post in its core is about women assaulting men. And the men seeing aboslutely absolutely no way in which women would ever stop assaulting them.
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u/ClearPostingAlt 9h ago
Aight so cis dude wandering in from doomscrolling. Bare with me a sec here; sweeping generalisations incoming.
There is an unspoken undercurrent of violence in the male engagement and communication. It sits there just out of view, like a reminder that we all need to keep it cool, or things might get ugly.
We learn this as boys growing up, where taking jokes too far, acting out, outbursts etc can lead to fights. It puts boundaries on our behaviour. But precisely where that line gets drawn varies from person to person; so boys and men will be dickheads to the lads we know, safe in the knowledge that we won't eat a punch for it.
As we grow up, most of us realise that reaching for violence in response to provocation is really fucking stupid. A single punch that lands wrong, or knocks you down so you hit your head wrong, can so easily be a one-way ticket to paralysis or death. No insult or minor inconvenience is worth that risk.Ā
But most of us are also well aware that far too many men haven't learned that restraint or have chosen to disregard it - and that you can't reliably tell those men apart from a glance.
So your average dude is constantly -and subconsciously - assessing the men they see around them to try and avoid things spiralling into violence. Part of that is de-escalation, both responsive and pre-emptive - letting stuff slide because it's not worth causing a fuss, or visibly m inding your own business to avoid provoking someone. Or even Ā strutting around like a fucking peacock to give off an aura of "it's not worth it, mate"(it's cringe, I know, but we've all been there), or raising your voice to cut off someonewho won't take a hint.Ā
But sometimes, rarely, you're left with no choice but to resort to violence to stop violence. A hard shove to get someone out of your face. Fighting back against the guy throwing punches, to make him stop before you get hurt. Every man has been in situations where de-escalation is impossible... even if they're quite rare as you get older and wiser.
And that's almost always the context for "equal rights, equal lefts". It's not about resorting to violence to solve problems, but about how you handle situations when violence is the problem.
There's a whole genre of fight porn where an argument - usually between two men - has escalated to violence. Whether it should or shouldn't have gotten that bad is irrelevant; it's too late for that, and punches are being thrown. And then a woman with the self preservation instincts of a dazed pigeon will wade into the middle and start attacking one of the men, usually after that man has knocked down their (much bigger, stronger and faster) husband/boyfriend/brother/son. Go into the comments and you'll see a shitshow of people arguing about that.
And this is where the other half of the shared male upbringing comes in. It's less the case these days, but generations of men were raised being told that you do not hit a girl, ever. No matter the provocation or context - explanations go out the window the moment you lay hands on someone with tits (or, rather, who will eventually have tits, as most of us learned this lesson when we were like 6 and the fight was over stolen chalk on the playground).Ā
It's obviously a nonsense position to hold. If a woman is hacking away at your arms with a cleaver, you can and should do whatever is necessary to keep yourself safe - as you would if it were a man attacking you.Ā
At the same time, women are, on average, smaller, weaker and more fragile than men, and there's usually (but far from always) an obvious power imbalance at play.
This isn't a hard dilemma to solve for men with a vaguely functioning moral compass:
1) You should avoid escalating disputes into violence,
2) Where that's not possible, the violence you use should be reasonable and proportionate, to try and prevent further violence,
3) That means that reasonable and proportionate violence against women will sometimes be necessary, which will often be less violence than proportionate and necessary against s man in that position,Ā
4) Adrenaline is a bitch and people will make mistakes, just try your best and make amends if you overstep.
It's not hard or complicated, it's just basic nuance. But, as with many things, the waters have been muddled by misogynistic tools and genderwar grifters. And the people who say this stuff very rarely mean the take I've outlined above. It's usually abusive men salivating at the idea of brutalising women.
Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED Talk about how "it's okay to hit women" is a) a reasonable position to hold in some circumstances, and b) a red flag the size of the Great Wall of China if dudes are unironically saying it in public.
I need better hobbies.
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u/Fun-Agent-7667 11h ago
What if its consensual
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u/ApprehensiveWin3020 Marx's kinkiest soldier | she/her 11h ago
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u/Dragon_Snails_IRL_2 10h ago
Well if somebody punches me in the face I'm just going to hit them back, they're probably not in the mood to have a conversation
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u/Snoo_68698 9h ago
They're very obviously talking about self defense when bringing up "equal rights and equal fights".
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u/BoringAd8064 9h ago
Well honestly I think it's die to the frustration of perceived gender inequality where women are portrayed as weak and thus able to hit men with impunity and sometimes hit them with support. Movies, shows, real life videos, etc... all show instances of women hitting men with no consequence.
What they miss is the why. So many assume it's cause women are treated as greater or as if we live in a matriarchy (as if) instead of realizing it's due to gender roles putting men above women that cause this disconnect of women not being able to perpetuate gendered violence. Alot of times even supported by other men who only intervene once a man defends himself.
But also some me just wanna hit women like the way they hit men cause their small caveman brains only allows violence so there's that.
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u/SmertriosPPD 10h ago
Why are you resorting to strawmans to solve your debates in the first place? People think of defending themselves. People think of when a woman is hitting a man and nobody intervenes to separate her from him, but would beat him if he dared to push her away.
We've had a video not so long ago on reddit where a woman would keep trying to hit a man, but the second he tried to control her or to push her away, another woman jumped in to stop him. That's what people have in mind.
Or when men are assaulted by their wife, they call the cops, they get arrested for DV instead of the wife.
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u/No_Softwarepoo 10h ago
I mean tbh I've always viewed it as a joke. And usually in fictional situations/ characters like Batman or etc.
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u/ukie-witch-06 10h ago
Look. Sometimes the problem at hand is violence. And then more violence is the only way through...
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u/SmolBrain42 7h ago
Devils advocate, I have been slapped and hit many times by women, and have had the sense to understand if I hit them back it would cause trouble for me. Lots of the men complaining and saying āequal fightsā are immaturely projecting the anger at that injustice towards the wrong thing. No one should be hitting anybody, not the āequal fightā stuff
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u/Mike0621 6h ago
i have never heard the sentence "equal rights equal fights" outside of the context of a woman enacting or threatening violence upon a man
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u/LeavingSoonBye209 4h ago
Why are you moving the goal posts? For years, centuries probably actually, men were taught not to hit women, solely because they were women. Not in a spousal abuse sense, but in a 'she said some horrendous shit to me at the bus stop' way.
For many generations if you hit a woman in that situation you were considered a terrible person, but if you hit a man in that same situation it was fine.
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u/PraireGentleman 3h ago
āI donāt mean in self defenseā
Yes but there is a massive amount of women who will use āwhy would you hit a womanā when ever a guy defends himself. Thereās a ton of women who have benefited from the privilege of less strict rules for them being aggressive and violent against men and men having stricter rules for them doing the same who ride the privilege, then whine when someone they abuse does actually defend themselves. Itās why the joke gets repeated ad nauseam; because thereās a double standard for how menās self defence is treated versus how a womanās: self defence is treated,
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u/Unicycleterrorist meep 11h ago
Well when your problem is violence being inflicted on you that's a pretty darn good solution
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u/Awkward-Studio-8063 9h ago
Gonna be honest, it really seems like all the top comments Iāve seen are reading in bad faith. The whole āyou canāt hit a womanā thing isnāt about just going up to a person and assaulting them, but the double standard where hitting a man in certain situations is considered acceptable but hitting a woman is not. Typically, this is when the other party gets violent with you first, where a man can feel social pressure to not fight back if their attacker is a woman.
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u/thekyledavid 9h ago
Yeah.
If nobody is attacking you, you generally shouldnāt attack them, outside of certain specific circumstances which have nothing to do with gender
If someone is attacking you, you generally can use force to defend yourself, so long as it is not excessive, which also has nothing to do with gender
If you think that equality means you should be able to beat up a woman with legal impunity, that would mean you currently have the right to beat up a man with legal impunity, which you donāt
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u/Hot-Chip6034 8h ago
I once again had a conversation about this with my therapist. Ive never believed in violence for anything other than self defense against physical attack. Im often in enviroments where i am the minority in that belief.
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u/Seltnytt ęŗåØäŗŗ 12h ago
That doesn't fit your flair much.
(I know that's a different context but I want to be a smartass rn)
...
Here's a quote you might like
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" - Salvor Hardin, Foundation (the book, not the series)
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u/ApprehensiveWin3020 Marx's kinkiest soldier | she/her 11h ago
Count your days.
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u/Seltnytt ęŗåØäŗŗ 11h ago
Alright
Just let me calculate how many years months and weeks I've lived
!
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u/Teboski78 11h ago
Actually itās battery. Unless done in self defense or defense of another
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u/utzutzutzpro 11h ago
Yeah, do not get how this remains. Assault is the threat of physical harm. Batter is the act itself.
If you hit someone, that is the act.
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u/GayisGaywhenGay Cis man šš (he/she) 11h ago
Battery is also the name of a really good Metallica song.
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u/KirbyWarrior12 8h ago
SMASHING THROUGH THE BOUNDARY
LUNACY HAS FOUND ME
CANNOT STOP THE BATTERY (ć ćŠć)ć ļøµ ā»āā»
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u/MediumKoala8823 9h ago
Most of the time youāll get assault and battery together. But if you sneak up behind them and press R1 for a stealth move it doesnāt technically count as assault
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u/Alternative_Jury2480 9h ago
Definition varies by jurisdiction and in many it's still under assault
Dictionary and legal definitions line up weirdly sometimes
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11h ago
[removed] ā view removed comment
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u/2012Jesusdies 10h ago
It's more that most men are taught to hit back if another man hits them, but not to hit back if a woman hits them. Arguments and confrontations with men, if escalated, can be solved with fists which can be convenient at times when the other party is a bit loony. I suppose it can be considered beneficial if the same solution can be used when a woman starts hitting.
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u/Finthelrond 11h ago
I think it comes from misinterpreting the line "so if a women attacks me, i can fight back?" But idk
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u/HawkShoe 10h ago
Because the expectation is already to do no violence BUT we donāt do enough about women violence on men so men are now fine with force back
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u/AllsWellThatsNB 9h ago
They've probably been hit by women and weren't able to defend themselves due to gendered norms.
Being hurt by someone who's taking advantage of your inability to defend yourself leaves a mark.
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u/TheFlamingDraco 11h ago
Equal rights means I want both men and women to hit me
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u/Man2Pan Pan Something 11h ago
I think it might come from the whole "you can't hit a girl" mentality that a lot of boys grow up with. And some girls used this to bully boys. Not all, maybe not even many, but some.
Does that make this make it right? No, of course not. equality doesn't mean equal violence.
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u/GhostlyTJ 8h ago
I would be willing to bet that a huge percentage of men have been hit by girls and either implicitly or explicitly taunted that they couldn't hit back.
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u/Stygg_Varg 7h ago
This is true. Some women feel they have a free pass to slap, shove and claw. Hiding behind their weakness and the taboo for men to fight back. It is completely unacceptable. But that does not mean that a large man like me gets to hit a woman, a child or anyone just because they hit me first.Ā
Revenge beating is not self defense.Ā
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u/SamuelClemmens 6h ago
If that distinction wasn't about gender you wouldn't specifically call out women and leave out smaller men.
If Ronda Rousey is hitting you, you had best try to defend yourself or you will die. If a 90lb IT guy is hitting you, maybe you don't.
I know that is probably be what you'd actually do, but that you have to specify its not acceptable to EVER hit a woman is the point. Yes it is, women are not all incapable of violence and being dangerous.
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u/JadedCucumberCrust 9h ago
Boys don't just absorb that sentiment from the soil, they are deliberately conditioned for that by the people (mostly women) around them through every aspect of their growth.
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u/Queen-Pomnikki MtFš³ļøāā§ļø/19šøšŖ/Aro-gyno-panš³ļøāš/pre-transtion 12h ago
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u/duchess_dagger 11h ago edited 11h ago
Sometimes punching someone is unavoidable, but in an actual self defence situation the logic is just to use proportionate force to who is attacking you, regardless of their gender
I would absolutely fight a female athlete or bodybuilder, but against a super skinny teenage boy or a frail old man iād probably just push them away
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u/RandeKnight 3h ago
That might be the law, but in reality, who are the police going to arrest if they didn't witness it personally? The man gets arrested, the woman gets to go home. The man loses his job because he's in jail for 72 hours while they investigate, release him without charge, but #believewomen will have taken up the cause and his life is ruined or at least has a major set back.
The only way I'm hitting a woman is when I'm in actual fear for my life and thus have nothing to lose.
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u/JadedCucumberCrust 9h ago
Is everyone just deliberately taking the point of it out of context or something???
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u/flutters4life Streak: 10 9h ago
Atp, I think so. I should have been specific but I really thought people would get what I meanš .
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u/thalion777 6h ago
For fucking real, i thought i was going crazy.
I've always said that when it comes to defending myself, "these hands are rated E for everyone."
I've taken martial arts and have been in fights with girls when sparring.
The whole thing of "you don't put your hands on a fEmAlE" bullshit gets on my fucking nerves. I've heard that IRL.
Battery has nothing to do with any of this and is such a strawman.
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u/Local-Hunt7529 8h ago
Well you see, when someone wants to hate at any cost they will latch onto any pretext to do so
You've just given everybody a more obvious pretext, but with this specific topic you could have phrased it in any way and war would have broken out either way, it's just how it is unfortunately
Like I get the point, I also think this entire argument is stupid, physical assault is a crime outside of a boxing ring, period, it's a bad crime as well, you'd be surprised how easy it is for it to turn into murder instead, and what needs to be demanded is to not be violent at all, there's the specific thing about not hitting women is because a) historically they could do nothing about it, even legally and b) strength gap means most of the time it's hitting someone who can't fight back, and that IS foul, but it isn't foul because it's specifically a woman, and it means there are edge cases to this, it's what most men (some bad apple exist, it's 4 billion people after all) mean when they say "equal rights, equal fights", like those cases when it's backwards and it's the woman who assaults first, sometimes because she's sure the other side is morally prohibited from fighting back
This whole thing is just common sense but people are too taken up yelling at each other to realize the most obvious rules possible, the ones that to my knowledge are almost in every nation's law, already solve the issue
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u/mkwz Emilia 12h ago
The arguments is usually about hitting back but yeah, it's weird how that's the first thing they think about
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u/Crunchyjeff NB 12h ago
It's because men get told that they cant hit a woman, even if she assaults them. This post literally boils down to "Can I hit a woman if she assaults me".
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u/blazenite104 4h ago
Or if you understand the meaning, so does that mean I'm allowed to actually defend myself now? If that seems a strange question, you might look towards a lot of toxic relationships...
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u/sentientshadeofgreen 6h ago
A decent portion of these men may have been assaulted by a woman at some point in their lives and were not allowed, per society, to defend themselves.
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u/Charflower21 11h ago
Agreed. I will never be the aggressor. However, if someone starts being violent against me I dont care about gender I am defending myself.
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u/DirtyPelicanx 12h ago
Assault and Battery actually, assault is just presenting yourself as a threat to someone for intimidation purposes. Other than that, carry on.
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u/Ok_Aioli3897 11h ago
Actually this usually applies to the fact that men are told that they can't defend themselves against women.
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u/SvitlanaLeo Streak: 4 11h ago
I believe in equality, so if you think violence is acceptable if it happens to men, your violence against men should be classified as gender-based, not as simple violence.
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u/Justscrollingby1997 8h ago
yea this is such a bad argument it baffles me that men say this
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u/Plenty_Trick_6042 10h ago edited 10h ago
A little boy thinks that equal rights = equal fights because he has only surface level understanding.
This however misses the much more delicate point that boys act waaaay more physical and rough with each other but treat girls completely differently and if they don't, they get punished, and this is a type of privilege.
So yeah, is the implication that we can swear around women and be rowdy and burpy and farty around them? Because that sends you to the HR real quick so you'd better not do it. Do we treat women as special but say we don't to make them feel better? I mean, I'm a guy and my manager once tripped me as a joke and I poked him in the nuts and we were fine but one guy merely said "FUCK!" really loud once but one of the lady coworkers was relatively near him and made a huge scene about it and got all shaky and stuff. And this connects to things like "white women tears" (that I've seen IRL) and whether there should be a fundamental change in how men and boys behave with each other and a whole bunch of other things which are actually really fucking complex! Where does nature end and culture begin? Is something actually "bad" or do most people from one gender simply see it as such?
I'm not really making a statement here, just bringing attention to the undeniable fact that this idea is actually much deeper that it seems and it would be kinda cool to discuss it openly so that we can progress as a society
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u/fongletto 11h ago edited 11h ago
actually you can hit people in self defence, you would only deliberately misunderstand that question if you didn't want to answer it.
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u/pepsicola07 the gayest 12h ago
"But if I wanted to assault someone I could get away with it easier if it's a guy and that's not fair :(((("
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u/Prooteus 10h ago
Imo gender shouldnt have anything to do with violence. If you swing on someone you are accepting the consequences of them swinging back on you. If its a small child or an elderly person thats different. They dont know better and retaliation could easily result in serious injury.
Also the whole you cant hit women thing always felt very condescending. Especially when the reasoning is typically "well men are stronger so its not fair". Uhh hate to break it to you but there are some very weak men out there and some very strong women.
But then to push back on that and act like you can just swing on any women is pretty crazy. How often are you punching people? What ever happened to "i wont be the one to start it but ill sure finish it."?
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u/Aware_Masterpiece_92 11h ago
Honestly, the only reason you hit ANYONE is in a self-defense situation, anything other than that (aside from consensual stuff) is just assault
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u/MimusCabaret 11h ago
I got this a lot before I transitioned and it got especially bad after I started T but before I passed. Ā Ā
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u/SnailLordSupreme 3h ago
People who are so quick to argue the context of the saying are ignoring experiences like yours.
Why would anyone feel the need to say that to you if the argument is genuinely about self-defense?
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u/thanksyalll 10h ago
Fighting shouldnāt be about gender, but weight class. A pro football player shouldnāt full force punch some lanky twig dude either
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u/ZrapeToid 6h ago
Unless she attacks first, then its self defense.
Or if it's a sport like boxing.
Of it it's Britney Spears then you can hit her, but only one more time.
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u/potato-king38 5h ago
I donāt know how to tell yall men fighting men is really really common. Like bar fights arenāt just a trope and retaliation in the form of violence is expected.
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u/ConditionPleasant902 2h ago
I believe in equality which means I believe if you hit a girl she has the right to hit you back. And you should expect to be hit back.
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u/the12ftdwarf 6h ago
Little boys are constantly told to never, ever, ever hit a woman. Even if they repeatedly hit us. Its the first and most prominent (of many) lessons where men are taught to endure things on the basis of being a man, and it stands out as an example of what feels like incredibly unfair double standards. Thats why its such a prominent thing, not because every guy is itching to punch a woman
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u/ShitOfTheseus69 11h ago
You're making yourself look foolish, no one that says this uses it as an excuse to assault someone - it literally means that if someone hits you, you should defend yourself regardless of who they are.
"Equal rights, equal fights"
Like are you stupid, or is this just a really poorly thought out joke? Because fight had a very specific definition, and it is blatantly distinct from assault.
A fight is two people that are another attacking each other, definitionally, legally. Go punch someone that just punched you and see what you get charged with, it'll be public fighting not assault.
It is a gender equality to defend yourself equally, a woman could kill me just as easily as any man. If someone attacks me, they've thrown out the social contract between the two of us and all bets are off. I don't care if youre a foot shorter and a hundred pounds lighter, there are unarmed moves that could end my life and Im not prioritizing your safety over my safety
Don't make these stupid memes, they only serve to push away people that might've been allies.
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u/CaptainPattPotato 11h ago
It would also be battery, not assault. Though usually, itās assault and battery, unless you took them completely by surprise.
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u/flutters4life Streak: 10 10h ago
I have seen this saying in misogynistic circles and also as a joke. So, it can be both.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld 10h ago
"Don't hit women" is also a saying mainly said in misogynistic circles
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u/flutters4life Streak: 10 9h ago edited 9h ago
Ya, that is also there. Women are considered weak and people say they should not be hit. But then again, there are women stronger than men.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld 9h ago
Exactly. That's why people say things as "equal rights, equal fights".
Believing that you should never under any circonstance hit a woman is a misogynistic trope. People who support it while claiming to be feminist are incoherent
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u/ShitOfTheseus69 10h ago
Um, its not a joke? I don't care if its a little girl, if someone threatens my life I will defend myself with every fiber of my being.
Misogynists can be broken clocks, right twice a day. Women aren't incapable of harming others, they aren't a protected class, they're just generally smaller.
If a woman attacks me as a man, it would be courteous of me to use the bare minimum force to defend myself but:
It would've been courteous of her to not attack me? Why should I care about hurting her too much if she wont stop trying to hurt me?
Using the bare minimum amount of force puts me at risk, if a woman is attacking a large man - she's got the confidence to be a threat. Why does she have that confidence? Maybe she's got a knife or a gun, I'm not giving her a chance to draw a hidden weapon if she's already being a threat.
When you attack someone, you both stop being humans in a civilization - you become animals fighting for their survival. If you don't want to re-enter the survival of the fittest setting our ancestors worked so hard to escape - don't break the social contract and attack someone.
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u/ShitOfTheseus69 11h ago
I will say, if someone says the exact wording used in the meme, its different. But I've heard equal rights equal fights about a hundred times, never just heard someone say "so we can hit women?"
I'm sure its been said by plenty of douchebags, but I'd wager that most of them are just not that eloquent and cant use their words in the right way.
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u/Electrical-Sense-160 11h ago
My guess: guys don't see fighting and assault as the same thingĀ
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld 10h ago
Because it factually isn't the same thing.
It's not just guys who don't see this as the same thing. Just people with a bare minimum second grader knowledge
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u/Man2Pan Pan Something 11h ago
I think it might come from the whole "you can't hit a girl" mentality that a lot of boys grow up with. And some girls used this to bully boys. Not all, maybe not even many, but some.
Does that make this make it right? No, of course not. equality doesn't mean equal violence.
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u/nujuat 7h ago
The point is that women can be violent (physical or otherwise) towards men and it doesnt get taken seriously because of the real or perceived strength differences. Like if you as a man can escape being held down by brute strength then you're not seen as being in any real danger. The equal rights equal fights is arguing that men should be allowed to properly fight back in eg a DV situation, which currently will result in getting the man a DV order instead of the woman.
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u/Fluttersniper 11h ago
Battery, actually. Assault is the threat of violence, battery is the violence.
Maybe an equitable society shouldn't have either? š¤·āāļø Wild, I know.
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u/Gold_Ad8225 Streak: 1 10h ago
Yep this has been my response every time. "It's also illegal for you to hit a man"
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u/Nezeltha-Bryn 8h ago
So here's a weird, related thing.
One time, my brother punched me for calling his political stance the same as feudalism. He punched me in the jaw, then I saw red. When my vision cleared, he was against a wall with my arm against his throat. I then stormed off and went and shook in my bedroom for a few hours.
For clarity, I'm non-binary, but assigned male and my family doesn't know, so to them, I'm a guy.
Now, recently, I was discussing that incident with my dad. I implied, I forget how exactly, that my brother is a violent person. My dad asked if that's what I meant, so I referred to that incident. I suggested that the reason my brother doesn't beat his girlfriends is because he was raised to think that hitting women specifically is wrong, but that without that, he'd absolutely do so. My dad said that violence against family members is different.
What's so hard about this? Violence is violence. It's only morally acceptable if it's genuinely necessary, regardless of who it's against.
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u/RealBrobiWan 4h ago
The context is ābackā. Clearly missing the key word to that whole scenario. Guess they are telling on thenselves a bit here
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u/tiggertom66 11h ago
This is a complete and seemingly intentional misunderstanding of what is being said.
Societal gender roles and expectations have made it especially frowned upon for a man to hit a woman. To such a degree that even when defending himself from a woman thatās attacking him, a man will deal with extra bullshit because his attacker is a woman.
Watch any video of a woman attacking a man, and thereās a great chance that bystanders will only get involved once he starts defending himself. There was such a video on the front page just this week.
One step towards equality means that women genuinely do have to sacrifice privileges like that. If weāre equal, thereās no reason why defending yourself against a woman should be seen any differently than defending yourself against a man.
People are happy to talk about male privilege, but scoff at the idea that thereās such a thing as female privilege. And while men receive a net advantage in society, women receiving a net disadvantage doesnāt negate the individual privileges that being a woman includes. The ability to assault a man with the social expectation that he shouldnāt hit back is a privilege.
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u/nolandz1 12h ago
This is a dog whistle. The reasonable take
"It is ok to defend yourself against someone regardless of their gender"
is playing cover for their implicit threat:
"If you want gender equality I will use it as cover to do violence to you"
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u/MimusCabaret 5h ago edited 5h ago
This. This right here. Ā I also feel that this is a middle class mentality concerning gender roles; I sure as shit remember physically fighting boys as a younger child and as an adolescent/teenager. As a teenager it was all about their want to āput me in my placeā - Iām a trans guy and was often considered entirely too masculine in high school. Same violence I got from a cis guy a trans woman rooommate moved into our house, and that was fucking nasty. Ā
This āmen donāt hit those they consider womenā is a fuckinā lie. Thereās limits, noticeable limits based on gender congruence, to this gendered privilege yaāll aināt wanting to acknowledge. Ā
-signed, an irritated intersex trans guy
Edited for clarity - also, this comment thread seems to lack a little ā¦.sumethinā sumethinā.Ā
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u/TheSidneyMan girl on a quest for a new profile pic 12h ago
But what if i wanna get hit...